EDITORIAL
Maximizing Value With A New Bike Purchase In 2023
Perception Is Reality
The bicycle industry is flush with rigs looking for fresh homes and it's a buyer's market like we haven't seen since 2008. For those with the cash who are planning to upgrade, the sheer amount of choice in models and specs is impressive. That's especially true as bike companies continue to launch new models while they slash prices on previous ranges sitting in warehouses.
In addition to selling the bikes that are on their floors, most shops are keen to take advantage of deals from manufacturers and bring in new rigs. Everyone is hustling to keep their staff employed and the lights on. And, as it's the slower season in many markets, that means there's time for mechanics to put together custom builds and swap parts.
The same thinking applies whether one is building a full-on super bike...
...or strategically upgrading the best bike they can find within a tight(er) budget. (Photo: Mr. Lungtastic)
I'm of the biased insider opinion that there's a lot more value to be derived from working with your preferred local shop than just grinding them hard for the biggest percentage off of the imaginary SRP of a bicycle. Components are overstocked too, and every shop I've talked to would rather turn discounts into more products going out the door. I've even seen some shops advertising discounts that are worth up to 50% more as a store credit rather than cash.
Below, I've put together a list of upgrades I would be doing to any new complete bike I was buying before it left the shop. None of these things are a big deal for a good shop to manage, especially at this time of year. With part swaps, some bike shops will buy back brand new parts at a deep discount but most will not. So I assume any take-offs will be up to me to re-home. Just something to be aware of up front.
Also, while I'm housekeeping, since my daughter was first forming sentences she's been getting told, ad nauseum, that "it's not what you say, it's how you say it." Maybe that's a non-sequitur and maybe it's a gentle reminder that most of us need from time to time, especially when bartering.
I've not specifically focused on the value of buying a hardtail. Almost every rider I see on the North Shore is on a full-suspension rig.
It may also surprise you to learn that I don't mention rigid forks or single-speeding anywhere in this article. Or, well, anywhere else. (Photo: Mr. Lungtastic)
New Or Used
I'm just focusing on buying a fresh rig from a shop, but you'd be right to point out that it's also an excellent time to buy a used bike or to upgrade a current rig. Some of the deals on fresh suspension products, for example, amaze me. It seems that the used market hasn't caught up yet, with many bikes and suspension forks still listed far too close to the current street price of new items, and that's especially true when one factors in the cost of suspension service on used products.
For the second-hand focused reader, I'd like to throw out a few links to pieces I've posted in the past:
A bike like my previous 2019 Marin Alpine Trail that's a few years old but has modern geometry and component standards would make an awesome used purchase in 2023, assuming the components are in good condition and the price is right.
But remember, it's Buyer Beware out there. I see mountain bikes that have lots of wear or damage that can't be measured in kilometers ridden or chains replaced. Always factor in the cost of a suspension and brake service when buying used. (Photo: Mr. Lungtastic)
For all the folks I've heard whingeing about seeing zero hits on their used rigs: yes, the time of year is a factor, but also go out and get some awareness of the street price for a fresh version. For example, my favourite recent model to recommend is the 2020+ Rocky Mountain Slayer. Very durable, nice to work on, has no surprises, pedals really well, looks great and can hold its own against any 'current' 170/180mm rig.
If I can get a brand new 2024 model with fresh everything for a street price of a grand over the equivalent used model - in any condition - I'm buying the new one. Just getting the inevitable suspension service done on the used rig will cover half the difference.
Brand new bike prices are something to consider before hitting the used market. For example, the 2023 Rocky Mountain Slayer A30 combines great suspension, excellent geometry, and a very well-considered build kit including appropriate tires, for 4700 CAD brand new. (Photo: Rocky Mountain)
Cables & Housing
From the most basic budget rig to the costliest, if the dropper post or drivetrain on a bike relies on braided steel for actuation then chances are the manufacturer has saved a few pennies by equipping it with some Jagwire junk. Maybe the cables are stainless steel, maybe they're galvanized but it doesn't really matter. In all cases, the actuation is degraded from day one and the performance curve falls off in no time.
I'm not into any fancy coated cables or sealed systems. Just give me Shimano SP41 4mm housing and Shimano stainless steel shifter cables. For my own year-round use, I always drip a little Dumonde Tech Freehub lube into the housing, but that's sacrilege for some folks.
I know some shops will suggest just riding whatever came stock until the action sucks, and I know it's wasteful to toss 'perfectly good' new cable and housing but I'm not into nickel-and-diming my shifting or dropper post experience. This is a quick swap for a shop to do on a fresh bike and the cost of the parts makes it an excellent value in terms of upgrades.
Shimano SP41 housing is my favourite upgrade to every bike with a cable-actuated dropper or derailleur.
Chainring Size
I don't think it's a stretch to say that the majority of riders pedaling themselves uphill on the North Shore are riding chainrings that are too large. My evidence? While wrenching on bikes I constantly see cassettes that are almost fresh except for the two lowest gears, (usually aluminum to save weight) which are completely toast. If you're not treating your lowest gear, which combines faster-wearing material with the poorest chainline, as a bailout-only option, then it's time for a smaller front ring.
Admittedly, some frames have minimum chainring sizes either to maximize suspension performance or to keep the bike's chain from sawing through the frame. But if you can't comfortably turn said minimum ring up most climbs in the second or third lowest gear, maybe the bike's not for you.
In any event, the costs of running too large a chainring measured in both cassette and chain wear will easily cover a swap to a smaller ring on day one. If in doubt, for our local pedal-and-plunge terrain, running a current 12-speed drivetrain with a 50, 51, or 52t low gear on a mid-thirty-pound rig, I recommend combining a 28t ring with dual-29" wheels and a 30t for a mullet or dual-27" bike.
Increased ground clearance, better chainline when torquing up climbs, and preserving your lowest gears for bailout duty. There are many potential benefits to running a smaller chainring.
As an aside, while high-pivot and idler (HP+I) bikes are not my jam, this is one significant advantage of the design. One example of a non-HP+I bike I've ridden with small chainrings (24-28t) that proved chainring size agnostic, at least in my mind, is the Banshee Titan. I ran both 26t and 28t rings on my Marin Rift Zone with zero complaints. I've also seen folks have excellent experiences small-ringing current Specialized bikes like the Stumpy EVO (28t min), Enduro, and Status (28t min).
I'm certain there are many other full-suspension bikes that are happy with 28 teeth rings, or even smaller. If you're running such a setup on a full suspension bike, please take a minute to let us know in the comments below.
Your optimum chainring size will depend on many factors. The width and construction of tires, wheel size, bike weight, and the terrain you're planning to grind the bike up.
Plan to use the lowest gear for bailouts only, and the second lowest gear for the very steepest grinds you'll regularly ride. Then choose the size of ring that makes that possible for you.
On Stem Length & Bar Height
A lot of bikes these days have what I'd call very low stack heights for a given reach. There are outliers with the most notable being Santa Cruz, but even after improving my flexibility, on most rigs I'm swapping to a 30-40mm or taller riser bar to fit the bike to me. Then I'll trim a few millimeters off each end of the bar since my T-Rex arms are happiest around 770mm wide.
Despite knowing what I like it often takes some back and forth to really get comfortable on a bike. For example, on the We Are One Arrival 140 I decided on a higher-rise SQlab 16° 30X bar a while back, but I've been back and forth between a 40mm and 50mm stem a dozen times now.
I'm not claiming there's one optimal position for all trails. I just look at how much some of the fastest DH racers on the planet vary their bar heights between tracks and know that there's no such thing as a silver bullet setup. Just be certain that the shop you buy from is happy to chop your bar more than once and work with you to find the right stem length for the majority of your riding. Even if it takes a couple of visits.
For folks that want to bracket setups and play around themselves, I think it makes a lot of sense to own a 30, 40, and 50mm stem if you're on 31.8 bars and a 35, 40, and 50mm stem if you're on 35mm bars.
Short stack heights got you down? Fit before fashion. Embrace a high-rise bar like the 76mm ProTaper.
The 16° SQlab 30X aluminum remains my go-to bar for more backsweep but there are many good options these days.
Saddle Talk
Having done a fair number of road bike fits, I recognize that there is a wide range of differences when it comes to saddle preference. Shape, width, length, flex, and materials all matter, and one person's painful ass hatchet is another person's perfect perch.
I'm always keen to try new saddles to see how they compare to others I've tried. I still cherish my reader correspondence about the above all others. Based on messages and conversations I've had about my SQlab 611 Ergowave Active saddle review, no product I've tested made as big a difference for as many riders as that one. It's a good place to start if you're looking for a new saddle.
However, these days any bike I buy would be leaving the shop with a 142mm BikeYoke Sagma. I'm in the process of changing my bikes over one at a time and then to ensure I have a spare I can pop onto any longer term test rigs without having to rob my own. I've not found anything more comfortable for powering up climbs from a seated position or standing up and engaging the saddle on descents.
Of all the saddles I've tried, the BikeYoke Sagma is my butt's clear favourite.
I love the suspended Sagma for mountain and commuter-gravel bike usage.
Hubs, Brakes & Rubber
If I was opening my wallet for a fresh rig tomorrow it would most likely be sporting a Shimano Deore M6100 drivetrain. A year from now I hope to be saying it will have a Deore M5130 LinkGlide drivetrain, but we'll see if and when that becomes an OE (original equipment) reality. I'd also more than happily pick up a bike with a Deore M4100/5100 10/11-speed rig except that the suspension on bikes spec'd at that level are usually unsatisfactory.
Here I'll stick with my Slayer example since it's right at the top of my list for a longer travel full suspension platform I'd be keen to own, and they’re thoughtfully equipped at most price points. The 4700 CAD A30 model has really caught my eye. It even includes awesome tires, which is one upgrade many bikes need due to a focus on gram counting, parking lot rolling speed, or just dollar shaving.
The Marzocchi CR is a great basic coil shock, and the Domain RC isn't giving up anything except 300-ish grams of weight savings compared to the Zeb Select RC on the 6200 CAD A50 model. On that note, I’m not stressed about the fork weight because I’d be keen to ride the Slayer with a dual crown fork at some point anyway.
The A50 sees an upgrade to an 18t star ratchet DT Swiss 370 hub but I'm never going to be happy with 20° of hub engagement, so for me that's not a benefit over the A30's budget Novatec hub spec.
I'd accept a lot of downgrades on my bike to free up the cash to run great brakes. The fact these Dominion A4 stoppers work as new after nearly four years speaks to value as well.
Upfront min-maxing every part of a bike? The Magura MT-5 is still the most impressive brake system per dollar in my mind. Shimanophiles will point to the Deore M6120, which can be a great choice too.
The tires on the A30 are already perfect for the application - Maxxis DoubleDown casings with an Assegai MaxxGrip in front and DHR2 MaxxTerra out back. After my Sagma saddle is installed and the dropper and rear derailleur cable housings are swapped out for Shimano, I could be happy riding the bike as it sits. But there are a couple more upgrades I would like and this is the time to get them done.
First, I'm going to buy a higher-quality rear hub with faster engagement and have that laced into a rim. Since I'll be running CushCore Trail or Pro, I'd be okay with saving a few bucks and using the stock WTB ST i30. For folks that aren't using an insert, I'd recommend buying something more durable like a Flow EX3 or a DT Swiss EX511. My hubs of choice for min-maxing this application would be a Spank Hex Drive or Industry Nine 1/1.
Finally, I don't love Shimano brakes - so I'd be leaving the shop with something else. My first choice is a pair of four-piston Hayes Dominions but depending on the price, a set of Magura MT-5s would also be on my list.
CushCore inserts are an upfront cost that will save me money over the long term in damaged rims and tires. Buying them with my new bike is going to save money on parts and installation.
Whether it's Gravel, XC, Trail, Pro, or Plus inserts depends on rim width, tire size, tire construction, and application. If in doubt, go Pro for the run-flat capabilities or Trail for performance per gram.
OneUp V2 Dropper
The OneUp V2 Dropper is not my personal favourite. And for folks who put in a lot of hours on the bike, it doesn't have the most resilient chassis compared to a BikeYoke Revive or my experiences with the Wolf Tooth Resolve. Both of those posts eat the V2's lunch when it comes to smoothness.
However, in quality and performance for a given cost the OneUp is still the post to beat. That's especially true for folks trying to stick the longest dropper post into a given frame size. I'm one of the few folks I know who's quite happy with the 170mm posts that often come stock in size large bikes. For a bike like the Slayer where I may choose a medium, I'd certainly go up in length from the stock 150mm post, and that makes the OneUp an easy choice.
I prefer the action and longevity of a BikeYoke Revive or Wolf Tooth Resolve, but I still think the OneUp V2 is the post to beat for almost any rider or application.
Shout out here to the 9Point8 Fall Line dropper as well. The only option, and a very good option at that, for folks that need some rearward saddle offset to perfect their fit.
Pedals
Even with my high-end saddle, new rear hub, upgraded brakes and dropper post, my A30 is going to come in a bit less expensive than the extra 1500 CAD I'd need to spend for an A50 and for me it's going to be a much better bike. But as we know, 'real' mountain bikes don't come with pedals so that's one more thing to buy before leaving the shop.
I'm ultra particular about contact points - saddle, push-on grips, and pedals - and unfortunately my two favourite platforms are fully serviceable made in North America options that are not inexpensive. I can argue between the Wolf Tooth Waveform in a large 112x106mm platform and the NSBillet Daemon which is 112x103mm. Currently the Waveform pedals are out of stock which makes for an easy choice. In either case my colour preference is silver so they look good forever.
Riding really nice pedals is a vice I'm not looking to correct. My two favourites are the NSBillet Daemon and the Wolf Tooth Waveform.
I love 'raw' silver pedals because from a distance they look fresh forever. I appreciate folks who prefer the pummelled patina look though.
Specific Examples Inside
Specific examples and personal budgets aside, it's hard to buy a bad bike in any travel category these days. Some are significantly better values than others even looking at street price rather than SRP, but eliminating the real slag is more of a process than ever because there are just so few examples.
That said, it's a great time to pick up a new rig at any price point - and to ensure that it leaves the shop with the parts you want on it rather than enduring a multi-month or multi-year upgrade process. A conversation and a bit of work with the shop will let you min-max the best mountain bike - ultimately an expensive toy - within your budget.
With that in mind, for fun and inspiration, if there's a rig that's caught your eye let me know the make, model, and from-the-floor upgrades you'd consider. I'm always into the more practical builds, but dream bikes are good, too.
Height - Steve Buscemi-ish
Wait - Patiently
Ape Index - T-Rex
Age - The same as DOS
Favourite Trail(s) every week - Pipeline (thank you Ken!) to Lower Crippler (thank you Andy!)
Favourite Song(s) this week - I'm Your Man. Nick Cave (covering Leonard Cohen)
Favourite Colour - Cosmic Lilac
Bar Width - It depends
Reach & Stack & ETT - It depends
Crank Length - 175mm except when it's 170mm
Wheel Size - Hot For Mullets
Comments
FlipSide
2 months, 1 week ago
My Min-Maxing strategy for 2023 may work if the bike industry keeps the current crop of standards relevant for a while. :) It consists of building bikes from the frame up using components I already have and others I can find with nice discounts, as I need them. Basically, buy the good stuff right away and stick to it for a long time.
The good stuff for me: RockShox Ultimate-level forks, SRAM RSC-level brakes for ease of bleeding. NSB pedals and stems because Canada. OneUp bars and droppers. Stan's Flow MK4 on Vault hubs, but WAO on Onyx would be tempting. Trailmaster LTD seat.
This may not minimize the cost at first, but choosing each and every component and keeping them for several years on various bikes is probably not too bad cost-wise on the long run...and I get to ride bikes with the complete build exactly as I want it. Moreso, building a bike is super fun and riding a bike you just built from the frame up is such an excellent feeling.
One thing I really don't like about this strategy is how expensive framesets are these days. It seems most new carbon frames are selling for 4500-5000$ CDN. That sucks.
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Flatted-again
2 months, 1 week ago
I don’t have experience with the Stan’s, but have you considered the arc 30 or arc hd rims? That lifetime warranty is hard to beat at that price. I’m partial to spank oozys but I’m tempted by the arcs
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
I’ve had very good results with ARC and ARC-Offset rims - i30 and i40.
I wouldn’t run any rim on the back of a hardtail without CushCore so maybe I can’t comment on dent dent resistance, but they’re nice to build up and they keep tension well.
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FlipSide
2 months, 1 week ago
I did try the ARC30 that came on my Spartan 2018. I flat-spotted the rear rather easily, but am still running the front. I also found that it was more difficult to get them to seat tubeless than Stan's. I found they leave too large of a gap for air to escape when the tire is mounted on the rim.
I've had many Stan's rims throughout the years
26": Flow, FlowEX and ArchEX
27.5": Flow MK3: FlowEX3
29": Flow MK4
I've been really satisfied by all of them, except for the Flow MK3, which flat spotted and dented quite easily. I run the MK4 with a CushCore on the rear on my hardtail.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
Nothing airs up as easily or as consistently as Stan’s rims. Been wrenching a while and I’ll die on that hill.
Don’t find the ARC to be an issue, but Stan’s are consistently magical in this regard.
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handsomedan
2 months, 1 week ago
Plus one on the price of frames. I feel like they’ve gone up higher than the cost of completes (proportionally).
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
I think frame pricing from most brands (versus their own completes) is a clear statement they don’t want to sell frames.
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FlipSide
2 months, 1 week ago
Indeed, but I find that to be quite unfortunate.
I understand very well the bean counters are more interested to sell complete bikes, but I also think bike companies should be proud to have customers choosing their frame out of all available options for a custom build.
I think they should at least give a bit more with their frameset if they want to charge that much. Shock pump, extra frame protection, good quality headset, extra derailleur hanger, extra bearing kit, nice merch, mullet conversion hardware that may not be provided with complete bikes. There are plenty of things they could do to sweeten the deal, IMO.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
“I also think bike companies should be proud to have customers choosing their frame out of all available option for a custom build.”
I think this is a great way of putting it. Don’t know how many bean-counters you’ll win over, but I’m sold.
I’m always impressed these days when bigger brands even offer a frame-only option.
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Cooper Quinn
2 months, 1 week ago
It is small potatoes in the context of price, but the new Trek Slash does come with the non-mullet hardware if you go frame only - it doesn't include this if you buy complete.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
It's also important to look at the rear shock options on frame-only builds as they generally are much-much more expensive than what comes on the base-level bikes.
ClydeRide
2 months, 1 week ago
Does pride help a company make payroll?
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
This is kind of a weird flex? I think it's fair to say that none of the medium-to-large bike brands are scrapping payroll off of frame-only sales.
Ignoring price, I read the initial comment as more of a reaction to the fact many brands don't offer frame-only or charge for frame-only such that they clearly are trying to move complete bikes. It's an attitude adjustment, as much as a price adjustment, to suggest that companies should be stoked if folks want to put together custom builds on their platforms.
For example, Kona used to be awesome for this. They listed frame-only for many models (Honzo, Process, HeiHei, Unit) with prices that were quite reasonable and then encouraged and shared customer custom submissions on their blog (some very cool bikes highlighted). I'd argue from my experience that this helped them develop quite a dedicated customer following and helped them sell bikes and build a cool image. Obviously, from looking at their website, this is not a priority for the new owners, but I think in the short term and long term that will prove to be a mistake on their part.
ClydeRide
2 months, 1 week ago
@Andrew Major
I don't get it. "Flex"? It's got nothing to do with me... not a flex or a boast or a brag. It's a simple disagreement with the post. He used the word "pride", and pride doesn't pay any bills. I'd also love to be able to buy frames on occasion, but companies are going to make their best bet on the product offerings that give them the best chance of success.
In the aftermath of the COVID bike bubble, companies are going to have to be on point with their decisions. RIP Guerilla Gravity. Maybe the coming (anticipated) crunch will make frame-only options a more attractive option for some companies. I don't know. I do know that I'm reticent to do a lot of second guessing from the outside... those companies know their own business better than I do.
Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
@ClydeRide,
I apologize, and thanks for clarifying. I definitely misread the tone of your post.
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Guerilla Gravity is an interesting example of a company that was big on frame only and interesting boutique builds and then near the end were trying to sell very expensive NX-level complete bikes with very basic wheels/cockpits/droppers etc.
Actually, I know from a couple of people who were interested in making a frame-only purchase that they wouldn't sell a hardtail frame unless you took a fork and a dropper post with it. They didn't make a purchase.
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In terms of what a fair price looks like, you're totally right, only a brand knows its own best economics. But here's the sort of example that keeps me wondering.
I have a friend who's been pondering a new Forbidden Druid (he's a bit HP+I obsessed, and that's "the one") but he doesn't like their SRAM-heavy build kits. Okay, buy a frameset (includes a Super Deluxe Ultimate air shock). Here's where he's stuck:
$5000 - Druid Frame + Shock
$7800 (+$2800) - Druid Frame + Shock (Select, not Ultimate), Lyrik Select fork, GX T-Type drivetrain, Crankbrothers Synthesis wheels, Cane Creek 40 headset, OneUp dropper post and remote, Code brakes, EXO+ tires (MaxxGrip front / MaxxTerra rear), etc.
Clearly, it would be foolish not to buy the complete value-wise, but what if none of the parts are what you'd actually want to ride, in which case it would be foolish not to build it up from a frame with what you want?
I imagine he'll buy neither, which makes me wonder if there's not a frame-only price that would encourage folks to put together their own builds and also make the brand sufficient money.
It's, of course, all just food for thought.
FlipSide
2 months, 1 week ago
I agree pride doesn't help paying bills.
What I mean is that even though very few people go for the full-custom route, those who do often end up with seriously kick-ass and well thought-out bikes, free of pricepoint constraints that product line managers are dealing with. Arguably, such builds are likely to leave a stronger impression to those seeing it than the same frame on a budget-friendly complete build.
While it is of second order compared to the profit per sale figure in $$$, a frame being viewed as worthy of a nice custom build certainly has a positive impact on the notoriety and branding of the company, which has a certain value as well.
Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
@FlipSide
“…a frame being viewed as worthy of a nice custom build certainly has a positive impact on the notoriety and branding of the company, which has a certain value as well.”
Your post is just missing an example. Such as:
#Chromag
Justin White
2 months, 1 week ago
Why would the bean counters want to sell more full bikes? You just said yourself that frame-only is often not really a good value for customers, which means it should be a decent value for the company.
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FlipSide
2 months, 1 week ago
It is not unreasonable to think bike manufacturers probably make a higher margin (in %) on frameset sales, but more profit (in $$$) on complete bike sales.
doodersonmcbroseph
2 months, 1 week ago
Makes me annoyed, I have a lot of forever parts and I don't want to have to be my own sales rep for a bunch of parts I never wanted in the first place.
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Eric Van Sickle
2 months, 1 week ago
During the Covid crunch, I was able to secure a Spec Enduro complete (only wanted frame though). I parted the bike out and the frame became quite affordable. If amd when I change my frame, I would probably end up having to do the same. I see no point in over paying for a frame so that a company can most likely keep their margin on what they make on completes (an assumption).
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handsomedan
2 months, 1 week ago
Selling take off parts now is quite a bit different than it was during Covid. I think you’d be lucky to get half or msrp on them.
Eric Van Sickle
2 months, 1 week ago
Agreed, but with the steep discounts being offered on completes, one could possibly come out ahead with some patience. Saying that, with four kids all in different sports and activities, I don’t see a new bike in my future unfor
Justin White
2 months, 1 week ago
@handsomedan: half MSRP on all the parts is still going to easily make up the difference between a frame-only and a full build. They bike companies are getting them at wholesale, with volume discounts, and probably taking a hit on the margins vs frame-only. That's why full-builds sell more: taking advantage of that buying power is a better value proposition for the customer that just wants a rideable bike Right Now.
The thing that really eats into the part-it-out-and-respec value proposition for the other (fewer) customers, is the time it takes time to strip the parts off, get them listed, and make the sales.
BarryW
2 months, 1 week ago
It's articles like these that run through my head as I spend time in my bike cave upgrading/fixing/generally playing around wrenching on bikes.
Tonight one of my younger brothers came over and we serviced his 2016 Suntour Raidon 32 fork. Wouldn't hold air, needed a service badly and for $40 and my coaching he's got a nicely working fork again.
I also decided to give him some inexpensive min-max upgrades myself. Bought a larger cassette (HG 11-42) and are eliminating his 2X system and got an inexpensive narrow wide ring. Biggest benefit being he can use a standard dropper lever rather than the over-the-bar type required by two shifters. Add in new grips, 'upgraded' bars and stem that are my old take offs.
He can't afford to upgrade to anything better right now, but for about 100 freedom units (combined outlay) we've made a huge difference in the performance of his bike. And I'm spending time with my brother and we're drinking scotch so what's not to love? Sure, it might not be the level most of us are looking for, but he's stoked because it's going to improve his ride a lot.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
“And I'm spending time with my brother and we're drinking scotch so what's not to love?”
This is great Barry.
And let’s normalize that while a riders will not progress as quickly, go as fast, or even be able to ride the same terrain, mountain biking is fun even on basic bikes.
No dropper, basic coil fork, good geo, and go!
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BarryW
2 months, 1 week ago
_"And let’s normalize that while a riders will not progress as quickly, go as fast, or even be able to ride the same terrain, mountain biking is fun even on basic bikes. _
No dropper, basic coil fork, good geo, and go!"
So true! Sometimes it's easy to get sucked into the vortex of having the 'best' and here my brother is having fun, learning and growing with a basic bike.
Really need to remember this and normalize it.
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cxfahrer
2 months, 1 week ago
11speed, XX1 chains, Shimano cassettes and 30 tooth chainrings (29). It is really flat where I live.
Parts are becoming so cheap now in EU, it makes upgrading a puzzle. Do I really need a new Spline HX1501 wheelset for 300€? Could I possibly start a new bike build with a 2022 ZEB Select+ for 300€? Or order that SC Tallboy CC frame for 2000€? Combining all these would be difficult...
Thanks for the cable tip!
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
11spd XX1 chains - I had one at home I bought during the pandemic parts shortage (only thing available) and then needed a chain ASAP for a project at home and so, against my every instinct, I used it on my single-speed.
Holy… so amazing the difference in wear, at least short term. Definitely keeping my eyes open for the right price on a couple more.
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BadNudes
2 months, 1 week ago
There really is some magic in 11 speed XX1 chains; I get about 3x the lifespan of any other 11 speed chain.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
It’s insane. I’ve had folks tell me this many times but the single-speed eats chains differently.
It’s actually a bit of a bother as I’m testing a different tensioner and was expecting the chain to stretch way more than it has when I set it up. But I’m very much considering stockpiling them, I’m so impressed.
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Endur-Bro
2 months ago
I've only used KMC X-11SL Ti-Ni for the past decade. Is there more out there than this?
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Velocipedestrian
2 months, 1 week ago
>it's hard to buy a bad bike in any travel category these days.
My trick for narrowing the field is to assemble a list of 'mustn't haves'. For me, trunnion, short insert depths and yoke-driven shocks can quickly weed out otherwise exciting options. Through-headset cables and bad internal routing can be fixed by stick on guides.
Your own list will vary, but the idea can release you from analysis paralysis.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
Cable routing first. I’m not going to spend a minute justifying to myself why I bought a bike with crappy routing, and I’m not interested in going wireless as a solution.
Trunnion I’m less hot about now that shocks are designed for it and I’ve seen some good examples (Arrival / Titan). It reminds me of PF92 BBs. Took a while to get there (too long) but the design is trustworthy now (on the highest quality frames).
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Offrhodes42
2 months, 1 week ago
I just became the happy owner of a Stumpjumper EVO alloy with a brand new shock and a brand new SR Suntour Durolux 36. I moved all the parts (GX AXS, Reverb AXS, Magura MT Thirty) from my other bike. The price I paid for the frame and fork was just a hair over what Specialized is selling just the alloy elite frame for right now. Deal hunting and patience pay off. Then I got my son a brand new Vitus Mythique as he had outgrown his old bike. That whole bike was a hair over $2,000USD. It is a good time to be a buyer. Luckily for me, when I sell my old stuff I am just looking to get rid of it and typically am lower cost than most other used sellers, so it is a good time to be a seller too if you are not being dumb with your prices.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
“…so it is a good time to be a seller too if you are not being dumb with your prices.”
Hahaha. This is universally the case, though I might use the word realistic rather than dumb :-).
Do you have an EQ Durolux or the older model with the coil negative spring?
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Tjaard Breeuwer
2 months, 1 week ago
Yep. Locally someone listed a used Stumpy Evo for right around the same price Shoesh has the new ones listed for…
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Offrhodes42
2 months, 1 week ago
It is the latest EQ version. I love it so far.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
Very happy with the one I have. It’s had a couple 100hr services now. Still tight and smooth.
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BadNudes
2 months, 1 week ago
This is the way! People aren't looking at used bike stuff because they must have the latest and greatest, they're there for the deals! Better for something to be sold quick and get used than to sit around waiting for the right buyer. Maybe my privilege is showing, but I'll never understand the 'get a return on my investment' type sellers - we are talking about playthings after all.
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Brian Tuulos
2 months, 1 week ago
I run a 28t front ring on my 29er. Combined with a 46-10 cassette it's all the gears I need. Same climbing ratio as guys pushing 32 front rings with a 51-10 cassette. But my setup has more ground clearance and a touch lighter.
If im riding downhill on the road with a tailwind I spin out, but who cares. I'm not racing.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
“If im riding downhill on the road with a tailwind I spin out, but who cares. I'm not racing.”
Everywhere I ride my #1FG on the road I’m full spun out, so I guess I’m used to it. But yeah, at least locally 28x10 is plenty of high gear.
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Justin White
2 months, 1 week ago
Fit before fashion? Fit is fashion! Riser bars look dope: slam that stem, chop that steerer, and go 40mm or 50mm (or more) bar rise FTW!
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
I also love the riser bar aesthetic. Apparently this is a rare preference.
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Lu Kz
2 months, 1 week ago
Shout-out for getting your full reach by slamming those stems too (assuming you want that).
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BadNudes
2 months, 1 week ago
I don't follow. If the bar is rolled so the rise matches head angle, your slammed 40mm rise bars will get you in the same position as a 0 rise bar with 40mm spacers. If you roll the bar forward it's more analogous to to using some spacers and a longer stem rather than increasing reach.
I'll agree that I like the look though, with the caveat that if the bulge at the stem clamp doesn't taper off and blend with the bends nicely, hi-rise bars can be uniquely hideous.
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Justin White
2 months, 1 week ago
Why does bar roll have anything to do with head angle? You roll the bar to get sweep and rise comfortable for your hands and arms. My Renthals are rising pretty much straight vertical, maybe even a smidge forward to get a little extra upsweep that my hands like.
Having the rise parallel to the head-tube would reduce reach at the grips by millimeters, but the hand position would be garbage. And since I can and have ridden this bike with 10mm more stem length, I know a few mm more reach is nothing compared to having hands ready to apply strong active pressure, instead of being tingly and cramping with a fraction of a percent longer reach. You don't even need to try the other stem lengths, try different rolls and see how you hands feel, the couple mm of potential reach change is more than worth it.
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BadNudes
2 months, 1 week ago
You misunderstand me, and it's like you didn't even try. I mentioned bar rise parallel with HTA to keep things simple for the example, then I went on to describe a more real-world example with the bar rolled forward. I only meant to say that in my mind a high rise bar does not actually give more reach compared to a low rise bar with spacers under a slightly longer stem.
I also like my hi-rise bars with the rise about vertical - and I could get the same exact position with a low rise bar, some spacers, and a longer stem, and both set ups would have the same reach.
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Justin White
2 months ago
"in my mind a high rise bar does not actually give more reach compared to a low rise bar with spacers under a slightly longer stem."
No one but you said anything about a longer stem. Lu Kz mentioned maximizing reach with a high riser bar by slamming the same stem. You are correct that if you play with stem lengths, both aesthetics can be achieved with the same effective reach. But that's not the point, it's that by just swapping in a high rise bar (and bars are one of those things that people will be super picky about and are likely to swap for comfort and hand fit anyway) on the same stem, you can gain a little effective reach over a flat bar.
Your last sentence actually agrees with Lu Kz: high rise bars and same stem slammed would get you more effective reach, since (as you stated) it would take a longer stem with flat bar and spacers to make the reach match for a given stack height.
BadNudes
2 months ago
@JW ok, sure, I think we're all agreeing and I'm just quibbling over the lingo. I've just seen the misconception that a hi-rise bar does the same thing as spacers (without considering stem length vs. bar 'reach') enough that I thought there might be something to clarify there, must've forgot that average NSMB commenter has big-brain. Probably only confused things more. Sorry.
Justin White
2 months ago
No, we're not, unless you have come around and realized that, as Lu Kz was talking about, a taller bar with same stem means you can remove spacers and slam the stem to gain the few mm of effective reach.
This is with the assumption that the bar rise is oriented closer to vertical than parallel with the head tube, which does seem to be the norm, as you even called the vertical "forward" roll more "real world".
"and I could get the same exact position with a low rise bar, some spacers, and a longer stem, and both set ups would have the same reach"
Yes, and with the same stem, the lower rise bar and spacers would give less reach. You said you don't get how the higher rise bar extends reach, but you needed to lengthen the stem to force an example that shows the same reach. You just explained it, but keep looking for ways to say "no, it won't extend reach, because it doesn't in this specific, and different, case that I just created."
BadNudes
2 months ago
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BadNudes
2 months ago
HI Justin, I've seen you commenting here a lot, and I have to say it doesn't have to be like this. I'm really not trying to antagonize you. I hope you're okay and I wish you happy trails.
I'm willing to admit I might've been wrong in my comments. I really don't care but I've apologized if I've made anything more confusing for anyone.
It's true a hi-rise bar give your more reach. Lu's original comment seemed a little incongurent to me because I've never heard anyone say something like 'getting your full reach' when replacing a stem for one +10mm (something commonly done for fit/comfort). That's on me, feel free to ignore it.
Justin White
2 months ago
Some people don't consider stem length as something you change just for comfort., because it changes the steering feel.
"Full reach" would be referring to the maximum effective reach with a given stem, which can only be achieved with the stem slammed, no spacers.
Using bar rise instead of stem spacers, [some] comfort can be tuned independent of effective reach and stem length in order to minimize changes to steering feel. Assuming the usual mostly-vertical bar rise. Even rolled back, as long as it's not rolled beyond parallel to the headtube, using bar rise instead of raising the stem still minimizes effect changes to stem length while maximizing effect reach, which is very ideal if you're particular about steering feel.
Lu Kz
2 months, 1 week ago
The movement is on two different planes. Stem spacers move along your fork's steer tube, and as you move up the steer tube (and your head angle is somewhere less than 90 degrees), reach shortens somewhat. How much it actually shortens varies from bike to bike and setup to setup. I am not going to comment on how much *actual* reach is lost or gained, or if it matters.
Going to a changing rise moves along whatever plane you've rotated your bars to match. It might reduce reach a little bit, or it might not. Most people have setups that don't reduce reach (bars relatively flat), or if whatever fore or aft rotation they've selected won't change reach very much.
I also think Justin's explanation is quite good. Maybe between the two of us it'll make sense?
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BadNudes
2 months, 1 week ago
Thanks for being civil, but I completely understand that for the same bar/stem, spacers reduce reach by exactly the spacer height*cos(HTA)
The thing is, in my mind, you don't get more reach out of a high rise bar, unless your definition of reach includes effective stem length. In most cases the hand position of a high rise bar could be exactly replicated by a low-rise bar, some spacers, and a slightly longer stem. I don't think anyone would say you're 'getting your full reach' with the latter set-up, even though the position is the same, so your earlier comment seemed a bit incongruous to me.
Anyway, the main thrust of my comment was more just to throw shade on what I consider ugly lumpy hi-rise bars (e.g. check out the Deity Highside 760 80mm rise 31.8, the way the bulge abruptly tapers off mid rise strikes me as unattractive)
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Andrew Major
2 months ago
Thanks for trying to keep the conversation friendly folks. As you know it’s often not what you say but how you say it.
Definitely not all high-rise bars are equally attractive, and the higher rise a bar gets the more of an effect bar-roll has on the effective riding position.
The effective reach (and whether that’s measured to the stem-on-steerer clamp, or stem-bar clamp, or somewhere else) vs. the actual Reach measurement creates all sorts of discord.
I think the easiest thing is to stop the effort to some of a bicycle with one number.
daithi
2 months, 1 week ago
One issue with buying a new bike is that the higher spec components are always gated behind other upgrades I don't necessarily want.
If you want that Factory or Ultimate tier fork, well here's the price: it's only available on a carbon frame. And because it's our top tier build then you'll be more than happy to spend even more because we're only giving you the option of a GX AXS drivetrain. More batteries than you can count.
I just want an alloy frame with good suspension and SLX groupset, why is that so hard to find (looking at you "almost the bike I want StEvo").
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
Certainly. If you want to min-max Ohlins suspension, Dominion T4 brakes, and a Deore drivetrain with good wheels that’s going to have to be a custom frame-up build.
One exception, or at least partial exception/example to consider though is Rocky’s A70 coil. I wish more brands would do a version of this:
https://ca.bikes.com/collections/altitude/products/altitude-a70-coil-22-23
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Endur-Bro
2 months ago
YT and Commencal seem to be attempting to min-max the Swedish Sus a lil.
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Andrew Major
2 months ago
I’m a big fan of Ohlins suspension, but one thing to note in terms of it shipping on lower (than super-bike) price point bikes, at least locally, is service parts and fluids are more expensive than say RockShox.
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Justin White
2 months, 1 week ago
Electronic shifting has made this even more prominent. It's getting very very hard to find the top-line suspension in a build with mechanical shifting. I want all the dials with none of the batteries, but no one seems to be selling that lately.
I'm going to be super cynical and assume it's because SRAM is offering stupidly good discounts if your lineup maximizes AXS/Transmission specs, so it's in the bike companies' best short-term interests to make those specs, despite it maybe not being in the best interest of the customer (more thinking about batteries, more pollution) nor the earth (lots of virtually unrecyclable electronics that we all know is eventually just going to end up in a toxic pile somewhere for the next ten thousand years, not to mention the emissions that go into making the electronics to being with).
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Vik Banerjee
2 months, 1 week ago
The one thing that has come to mind talking bikes with people in these crazy times is you are not saving money if you end up buying a deeply discounted bike that isn't right for you. People are going sale mad and impulse buying stuff that isn't right for them...because mega sale!!!
It's a variation on buying that clapped out used bike that needs a full drivetrain, brake service, new drivetrain, new tires, etc... The initial cost is attractive, but at the end of the process the deal is not all that sweet.
I'm a fan of figuring out what I want and then looking for the best way to get it vs. looking for deals and then figuring out if I can make the item work for me.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
“I'm a fan of figuring out what I want and then looking for the best way to get it vs. looking for deals and then figuring out if I can make the item work for me.”
I guess I see it as right now there’s the highest amount of choice (models, sizes, colours, spec.) on sale anytime since 2008 so for the person who ‘needs’ or needs a new rig they’re most likely to be able to pick that up for the best value (bike + upgrades) right now.
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olaa
2 months, 1 week ago
The used bike market is crashing hard, so there are some good possibilities there as well to get a gucci-built bike for little money. And now with wear and tear parts on heavy discounts it doesn't take a whole lot to get a used bike back in mint condition. Just gotta put in a few hours in the workshop :)
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
Not hard enough? Totally true re. w&t parts discounts - great for buying the bike you already own - but used bike prices are generally very high compared to new bikes right now?
I ran quite a few example through the Buy-And-Sell. Admittedly that’s comparing street price (new) to asking price (used) but it’s not a wonder to me that the used market is stagnated.
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olaa
2 months, 1 week ago
Absolutely true that the listed prices on used bikes still are high, but those prices are quite flexible after the seller hasn't seen any interest in months... Got a Tallboy 4 a few weeks ago, and paid 1600.- euros less than what was asked (which was already a bit lower than it would have been last year). And i was pretty much the only one showing any interest at all in that bike.
Another one that i saw was a brand new carbon Ripley, the seller didn't get any interest until it was listed at half of retail price.
That said, you are right in that a new bike might still be a better deal. As an example, Prime are selling off their bikes at 30% off. Can be hard to justify a used bike when you can get a high-end carbon bike at 4600 Euro.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
“Got a Tallboy 4 a few weeks ago, and paid 1600.- euros less than what was asked…”
So that’s crazy (good for you) but neutrally don’t you have to wonder if they wouldn’t have had much more interest posting it for 1000 Euros less?!
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olaa
2 months, 1 week ago
For sure! But it's probably a hard pill to swallow when you were hoping for covid-money for your bike.
The tactically sound version would probably be to post it low and hope for a bidding war to bring the price up a bit.
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Lu Kz
2 months, 1 week ago
And I'm sure no one here has any sense of catharsis when people realise they aren't going to get covid money for their stuff.
Nope. Nobody. None.
Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
@Lu Kz, hahahaha hahahaha haha haha
cheapondirt
2 months, 1 week ago
Too many enticing options to choose from, I'll have to go with gas and groceries.
Three years of heavy inflation have not set me up to take advantage of the sales. Barring a windfall, in which case I'd have to go with the Marin Rift Zone 27.5 XR on sale for $3800 and transfer whatever's nicer on my current bike.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
I feel you. I’m so tired of talking about grocery prices. What a racket to be in with the advantage of being one of the first to have your hands in peoples’ pockets.
The formula is foolproof too:
I heard on the news the other day that the average Canadian family is paying 44% more for groceries than they did in 2019.
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Andy Eunson
2 months, 1 week ago
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Mammal
2 months, 1 week ago
44%??!!
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
What’s crazy about this stat is it doesn’t account for changes in buying habits, only the dollar increase. So, for an anecdotal example, I know folks who’ve stopped buying many certified organic items due to trying to control costs, so their bills would have gone up even more if their habits hadn’t changed.
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Mammal
2 months, 1 week ago
Absolutely. I'd assume everyone's changed their buying habits at least a little bit over the past few years. That's BONKERS.
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GB
2 months, 1 week ago
I would say a 25 percent increase on food cost after 2019.
My wages didn't go up.
Craft beer is stupid expensive! Indulging much less in craft beer .
Weed is cheap and quality is most exelent. Had to put a positive spin to the moraly destructive concept of increasing prices. Because: you can .
Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
@GB,
Kootenay True Ale is still only ~$10 for a sixer at the BCL. Best served very cold.
cheapondirt
2 months, 1 week ago
44% rings true for my family. We've added a second kid in that time so it's really hard to compare the numbers, but the increase is dramatic.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
Yeah, same here re. ringing true. Only one little person though.
I know we’re very privileged to have our own small space, to be able to share one vehicle, and to be financially equipped to raise our kid as we want (hockey, mountain biking, other opportunities) but in the past few years, even with raises, we’ve absolutely noticed the constant tightening.
Not the we ever ate at restaurants all that much but we’ve still cut that back a lot relatively. I heard a stat, again on the radio, that 50% of Vancouver restaurants are losing money and that’s very believable when you look at food costs/labour costs/rent costs going up and a reported drop in patrons.
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jaydubmah
2 months, 1 week ago
Come on guys! Galen Weston is ONLY making 4.5M a year and it's simply not his fault!!!
https://macleans.ca/culture/food/the-power-list-galen-weston-is-the-countrys-most-powerful-and-controversial-grocery-mogul/
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
Ha! Great article; thanks for the link.
Interesting how many different numbers are out there for his earnings - I wonder if the CRA even knows what he actually makes. 4.5M, 5.4M. Or 8.4 million according to CTV, or 11.79 million according to Unifor.
It doesn’t really matter compared to the other number… the average grocery store worker is making $18.97/hour in Canada or between 34.5k and 40k per year depending on who’s numbers you use for hours.
At 4.5 million and using the higher yearly earnings that’s 112.5 years of employee pay. At 11.79 million it’s 297.75 years of employee pay.
Not saying Mr. Weston doesn’t work hard and shouldn’t be well compensated, but that’s f***ed right?
———
I know I’m just a lame socialist, but what if executive pay was tied to base worker wages and they had to raise everyone’s total compensation to raise their own?
Maybe it could be something like a maximum multiplier if 25x. Weston gets a cool million a year, everyone else in the company is tiered down to the bottom, that for the purpose of easy math is 40k.
But, pay a basic living wage (last calculated I saw was $24/hr or ~ 50k/yr, which sounds too low but it’s just an example) and he gets a nice 250k/yr bump! 1.25 million. It’s not nothing.
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jaydubmah
2 months, 1 week ago
I would be all for systems that set a multiplier for wages :)
I don't think it's lame to be a socialist (and I'm not saying socialism has the answers for everything) but when it comes to making sure people don't fall through the cracks, it's a helpful, humane philosophy.
I sometimes wonder how much wealth people truly need. Like most folks, I like nice things (and I love nice bikes), but seriously, there must come a point where the amount of money is so divorced from reality that it's just about ego?
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Andeh
2 months, 1 week ago
I'd be curious to hear more about your suggestions of Spank Hex Drive or I9 1/1 hubs, vs say, a DT 350. I have a Hex Drive that came on my DJ and it feels like clunky trash, and never would consider spec'ing it on a real bike.
Is your choice of the 1/1 mostly due to engagement? I've got 2 wheelsets right now, one with a Hydra and another with a DT 350 (& 54t ratchet) and the rate at which I go through bearings on the Hydra has me looking at standardizing around DT 350, rather than the other way around.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
The 1/1 hubs combine good quality, very easy serviceability, fast enough engagement, and domestic (NA) manufacturing for a reasonable outlay. I think that even ignoring where they’re made that they’re the best overall buy on the market (though personally, I bought a P321 G2 hub last time I was in the market as it’s my overall favourite).
I’ve worked on many Spank Hex Drive hubs and feedback has been that they’re very reliable for the money. As with the 1/1 they’re fast-enough engaging. Personally, I’d spend a bit more but I still maintain they’re a min-max option.
I’m generally not a DT Star Ratchet fan for mountain bikes (I guess I can say Star Ratchet in general now that the patent is expired and a million knock-offs are hitting the market?). They’re very reliable in 18t and 36t formats (20d and 10d engagement) and I’ve witnessed reliability issues with the 54t format.
Personally, I love <5d engagement. I find fit the technical climbing and descending I like that they enhance my experience significantly. That’s certainly not a universal stance - wrote more in-depth about it if you’re interested - but I wouldn’t recommend something I wouldn’t buy myself.
———
If the DT 54t works for you, that’s clearly an awesome choice.
On the Hydra, I find I do the large hubshell bearing 3:1 compared to the small hubshell bearing and at least that compared to the freehub bearings, if I stay on top of it. Maybe that’s helpful?
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Andeh
2 months, 1 week ago
Yeah, my disappointment with the Hydra is mostly from bearing life (lack thereof). The large ones seem to get crunchy every half year, which is crazy short considering I don't see any sign of corrosion/contamination when I swap them out. They are easy to work on at least. When I asked I9 support about the really short bearing life, they sent me a set of bearings and a new axle shaft, which was slightly longer than the old one. By comparison, DT bearings last me and my buddies years, and we haven't had any issues with broken ratchets. All my riding is "winch & plummet" style, so the benefit of Hydra for me is basically just improving my track standing ability in the parking lot. And 350s tend to be much cheaper in OEM builds (Reserve 30 HDs with 350s are $200 less than 1/1s and $600 less than Hydras), so I guess I was just surprised to hear I9 hubs being mentioned as a good value proposition. Plus they're lighter, and make the suspension feel a little bit better (to me).
That said, I've seen/heard rumors that DT is coming out with a new high engagement hub (some of the pros are already running them), which could be interesting.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
I only have good 1/1 experiences to speak of, but nothing is faultless. I think Industry Nine would do well to consider EZO bearing spec, as used in P321 hubs, but Enduro is so inexpensive and mountain bikers put value in the name to boot.
DT makes quality hubs, so if they work for you engagement wise that’s great. I can only write from my experiences.
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Eric Van Sickle
2 months, 1 week ago
I’ve been burning through Hydra bearings as well. Just about to install my second set this seasons and I’ve purposely not washed my bike much this season to see if that helps. It didn’t make a difference.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
On the Shore or elsewhere? I find using Enduro bearings in hubs (assuming that’s what you’re using) it’s important to pull the shields and make sure there’s grease inside.
I also do the big hub shell bearing (driveside) 3:1 versus the other bearings. Changing it (so quick) when things get shitty makes everything last longer.
Finally, it’s generally true that the easier something is to service the more often you’ll need to do it, and I will give I9 that - so easy.
———
For whatever reason bearings seem to last longer in the 1/1 rear hubs?
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Eric Van Sickle
2 months, 1 week ago
Mostly Bromont riding. Lots of pedaling and some chair.
I do agree, they are easy to change but I’ve never gone through bearings on hubs like I have with I9. Hadley, P321, Onyx, many more name, all lasted longer.
Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
Oh, definitely replace Hydra bearings more frequently, even compared to I9 1/1.
P321 I get multiple years out of bearings but it’s not an apples:apples comparison since they use very high quality bearings comparatively (EZO instead of Enduro).
That said, I’m currently reviewing the Stan’s/P321 collab hubs and they use Enduro and no issues so far. Something to be said from independent pre-load adjustment maybe?
Eric Van Sickle
2 months, 1 week ago
Do you know if it possible to buy EZO bearings that fit Hydra’s? That would be a great upgrade in my mind
Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
@EVS,
This is a challenge with I9 hubs that I don't like, though again, in their defense, most folks think Enduro bearings are great (and Enduro does make some awesome bearing products - like their MaxHit headset and BB lineup) and would be putting Enduro bearings in any hub anyway, including in the place of higher quality originals.
This might have errors (fair warning) but I think the Hydra rear hubs breakdown as such:
HG/XD 6-Bolt: 6804 x1, 15307 x1, 152610 x1, 15267 x1
MicroSpline 6-Bolt: 6804 x1, 15307 x1, 6802 x2, 152610 x1
You can get the 6804 and 6802 bearings from EZO and other high-quality bearing manufacturers like SKF. The other sizes, unfortunately, I think you will find are only available from Enduro.
This had been one reason (along with high quality, very low drag, independent bearing adjustment) that I was regularly recommending P321 hubs, when they were available, to folks considering the Hydra.
My P321 G2 uses, I believe, 6804 x1, 6903 x1, 3803 x1, and 6803 x1.
The 6903 is 17x30x7 instead of the Hydra's 15x30x7
The 3803 is 17x26x10 instead of the Hydra's 15x26x10
The 6803 is 17x26x5 instead of the Hydra's 15x26x7
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*edit:
I specifically use the P321 as a reference here because their G1 hub used Industry Nine Torch hub guts and so I consider both products distant cousins.
Eric Van Sickle
2 months, 1 week ago
Thanks. I’ve just received my replacement bearings but if and when they bite the dust, I’ll be searching for the EZo’s.
Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
@EVS, I think, unfortunately it’s the Industry Nine specific bearings that usually die first, for which Enduro is the only option.
It certainly is worth removing the shields and making certain there’s enough grease in the bearings before you install them.
Alexander Filler
2 months, 1 week ago
Anecdotal but I have two bikes, Spank Hex on one, I9 1/1 on the other. Both have been fantastic and are two years in of regular riding without a bearing change. Had Hydra before and the bearings got squeaky faster than either the 1/1 or Hex. I would happily buy either 1/1 or Hex again, leaning towards the latter as my 1/1 has a slight wobble in the freehub while the Hex is flawless.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
Manufacturing tolerances being what they are, I’m not surprised there are imperfect examples of the Hex Drive out there. But all the ones I have worked on I’d consider min-max winners in terms of performance/quality/price.
A wobble in the freehub is weird? How does that present on the bike?
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Alexander Filler
2 months, 1 week ago
The Hex hub has been great, I agree it is a fantastic value.
Wobble is on the i9 hub. Misaligned freehub is my suspicion, could be slightly bent axle, bad bearing or something else, but it manifests as the cassette moves side to side as it spins despite being tightened properly and without play. This causes shifting to become quite difficult to setup. I have tried multiple cassettes on multiple different wheels and all cassettes have more wobble on this hub than any other hub. Its not bad enough to scrap the hub, but certain cassettes seem to play a bit nicer and allow shifting to function properly while others.
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woodyak
2 months, 1 week ago
I'd check the main drive side bearing on that 1/1. I had the same problem with both of my 1/1 hubs, purchased new 4 months apart. On the first wheel the play started out small then got really bad and then the axle cracked. I9 sent me a new axle and main bearings. When I went to replace things the drive side bearing just fell right out. The new bearing was no different, it would drop in and drop out. I contacted I9 and they sent me a new hubshell. My other wheelset on my less used bike had the beginnings of the same issue. I checked the bearing and was able to pop it out w/o effort. I9 replaced that one under warranty as well. I sold the 1/1's and swapped in DT350's instead and never looked back. Both hubs had about 1 season of riding.
Where I am in MA we have very slow techy power riding so hubs get abused here. Lots of issues with both Hydras and 1/1's in our group. Mostly clicking/popping all the time and axles breaking. The DT350 with 36T is our go to due to reliability. I run the 54T and never had a problem with many seasons of riding, but others have had the occasional issue. I just keep a 36T in my pack just in case.
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doodersonmcbroseph
2 months, 1 week ago
I love DT350's they aren't even that heavy despite how they look. I left mine as a 18t though because I am one of those people. Quiet and reliable for me.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
DT hubs are great for anyone happy with 10 or 20 degree engagement. Highly recommended in that situation.
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roil
2 months, 1 week ago
Forget maximizing value, this is just good fundamentals for how to set up your bike! I appreciate that you're highlighting the benefits on HP+I on chainring size after our last conversation.
I could definitely look into better pedals but how much do does shoe choice (different durometer outsoles) factor into the equation?
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
Shoe / Pedal / Technique
There’s really no way to separate one fully from the others plus there’s the foot position and personal preference factors.
Been thinking about it a lot the last few rides as I’m reviewing some Shimano GF6 shoes which are both very good and also completely different from my go-to Crankbrothers Stamp shoes. The Shimano shoes are much stiffer and much stickier and interface very differently with pedals than the Stamp which conforms quite a bit more.
I’m using both pairs of shoes with the same pedals but if I was buying new pedals there would be an advantage to different pairings.
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roil
2 months, 1 week ago
So many factors to consider. Looking forward to your review of the Shimanos to give me more insight.
I also just dropped crank size from 170 to 152 so there's another factor to throw into the mix!
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DanL
2 months, 1 week ago
This is very well timed for me - the AndrewMajor algorithm is very specific. I'm selling a bike as it's not useable for me any more, taking a bit of a hit but as it's essentially a sunk cost and I want to get it out, it goes for whatever it goes for but for sure, the used market is crazy right now and will implode at some point so maybe there's time to wait and see but apart from some manufacturers, no warranties are transferrable so the values do skew badly when you start looking to the LBS or online.
So now the fun begins. A Slayer A30 is an incredible value platform - slayer park with a full range cassette could be even more fun, the Marin XR is off the scale for suspension+value, Altitude A50 / A70 coil is a serious contender based on available range. Knolly + imby is throwing base models out for half price as are Norco.
For components (wheels/hubs etc) I offset the initial hit by riding them until they die then replacing, as it feels more like a legitimate usage to me and I wring some kind of value from them, unless they're dangerously bad like guide brakes or poor tire choices or just horrible to perch on.
However, I am so used to external routing that it's hanging me up as it's all internal routing on pretty much anything on a discount or deal. So I think about looking for a frame and build up for less than or equal to a new bike.
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Andy Krull
2 months, 1 week ago
Internal routing is manageable on the slayer. You will need the reverb 'stealth barb connector' to make life easy when it's time for replacement: https://fortnine.ca/en/rockshox-reverb-stealth-barb-connector-00-6815-066-030
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DanL
2 months, 1 week ago
That stealth barb is SO DAMN GOOD.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
Stealth barb is very handy but having routed quite a few frames without the benefit of existing housing to pull through, Rocky’s bikes don’t “need” it, as much as it’s a nice benefit.
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DanL
2 months, 1 week ago
My largest issue is that I don't know how to do it/have never done it and the idea of pushing an open ended DOT fluid filled tube through the interior of a frame makes me break out in a cold sweat.
Which are the frames that make you suck your teeth and shake your head when they come in for internal routing?
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
Hahaha, that’s a lot of trauma to dig through!
By far the easiest with a fresh bike are the tube-in-tube frames such as (most) Santa Cruz carbon frames and Yeti frames. These are actually more straightforward than zip-tying external setups.
Banshees are also bone simple though a bit more work to quiet down (Velcro is your friend). This is because of the massive exit to the shock basket.
Next on the list ease wise is frames with BIG exit ports and corresponding rubber grommets or plastic covers. I’d put Rocky Mountain and Marin in this category. Commencal are also no issue EXCEPT the dropper routing on some frames is a proper PIA.
Knolly’s (since you mentioned them) are similarly easy too, with a removable cover by the BB to help. But, on anything over a medium you’ll want a tandem-length shifter cable and brake line to accommodate the sine wave cable action (up the seat stays to the 4x4 link, down the seat tube to the BB, up the downtube to the exit ports) and a proper riser bar.
(Happy to answer other specific cable queries).
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
Oh, also, I don’t push through an open tube. Also thread on a double ended barb* to seal the line (SRAM and Hayes make them)
*except frames like some Yetis where the double-ended barb doesn’t slide through nicely. Then I cut on end off.
Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
I can think of quite a few good examples in the trail/enduro categories but the Slayer A30 really stands out to me in the 180/170mm field.
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Sylvan
2 months, 1 week ago
If I had more cash I'd be spending it on that A70 Coil, or one of Imby's Claymore builds. Enjoy the selection process.
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Lu Kz
2 months, 1 week ago
But Andrew, slowly and inefficiently upgrading a new bike is one of the joys of the first season and a half of owning a fresh ride! And you're advocating to take that away from people??
Semi jokes aside, the 20 to 40 percent discounts on last year's rides really frees up a lot of options for folks to do this sort of thing, and, having looked behind the veil at the spec sheets of a couple of next year's next gen bikes, it appears geometry has peaked in this generation, with few, if any substantial geometry changes. Is the average rider really going to benefit from a (somewhat drastically, in some cases) revamped suspension design on near identical geometry, or is dropping the cash on making what is essentially a custom tailored bike going to work out better? It's not like 2020-2023 generation bikes suspension designs were crap to begin with. Maybe a custom tune and high end damper on the older design will work better than a basic shock on the fresh stuff for those of us on the far ends of the weight spectrum anyway.
As a final note re chainring size, my spouse's previous gen small norco fluid takes a 28t without any issue.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
I know, buying new bikes and spending more money upgrading them before you even leave the shop? That Andrew Major guy is such a shill for big-bike-shop.
No, there’s clearly great opportunities to buy the bike you already own and go full custom right now as well. Apparently even value to be found in the used market if you just massively low-ball people! But this is today’s bent and it already ran long.
Cheers!
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Sylvan
2 months, 1 week ago
...having looked behind the veil at the spec sheets of a couple of next year's next gen bikes, it appears geometry has peaked in this generation, with few, if any substantial geometry changes. Is the average rider really going to benefit from a (somewhat drastically, in some cases) revamped suspension design on near identical geometry...
This helped in my decision; after a year of stubbornness, accepted that I was too stretched out on my Meta SX V4 frame. After looking at the geo chart of the V5, and realizing it is basically a V4 in 'high', with the STA (and associated ETT) just below the low position (which I can achieve moving my saddle back), and 5mm chopped off the reach/WB, I decided to downsize to the $1100 cheaper V4 frame. Lots of hoopla around the new linkage and that it's decidedly not a Commencal plow (though they're not recommending the V5 with coils so still Commencal linear), but happy with the V4 kinematics paired with a SD Ultimate Air for my use, as well as saving $1100 in the process. Grabbed a longer dropper and better headset and pocketed some cash (read: incurred less debt). I now have a bike that fits, and one I'll be happy riding for years to come. Those Imby Claymores are unbelievable value rn though, for anyone who is less cash poor than I.
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Andy Krull
2 months, 1 week ago
Glad you chose my bike! Love my 2020 slayer. Started on 27.5 in medium size, now running mullet. It's a good bike to mullet as it's conservative on slackness given today's numbers. This bike can really grow with the times.
For cable & housing, I also like to have a bottle of these on standby in addition to a spool of cable housing: https://jagwire.com/products/small-parts/sealed-end-caps
Great in the wet and seems to work well. I replace them with any new cable-housing.
As already mentioned, I now recognize the value in spending money on a good chain, as it saves the whole drivetrain in the long-run.
Hubs are one of the key areas for me too. For long term value hubs: Hydra rear and a Hope front. The Hope front is one of the few that can do 15mm or 20mm axle. If you ever want to run a DH fork, you are sorted with different end caps. NOBL black friday is hard to beat! That's moving beyond min-max though.
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Lu Kz
2 months, 1 week ago
I don't think there are any full suspension Rockies from the last couple years that can't 'grow with the times' (except maybe the maiden and possibly the Sherpa, but let's be reasonable for a minute). I actually don't think there's anyone consistently putting out better bikes for keeping for a long time and modernizing over that same time with updates. Rocky's got:
- ride-X adjustable geometry
- non trunnion for max offset bushing options
- press in headsets with standard sizes for Anglesets
- some bikes have adjustable chainstays
- some bikes have the ability to run multiple shock sizes
- spares and frame bits support for a long, long time
The slayer is a great bike. If I already owned one, there's a 0% chance I'd have any desire to get the next gen bike. I hope you can enjoy it for a long time.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
Yeah, previous gen Slayer is rad… though clearly folks know that looking at used vs. new prices!
If you already own one, it’s absolutely a product worthy of upgrades.
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XXX_er
2 months, 1 week ago
if you got a crank that takes a splined chain ring (like the Aefect ) there is no spider to get in the way and its easy to get small
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Polk
2 months, 1 week ago
As Andrew said, many frames are the limiting factor. For example, I have a 30t ring on my full suspension, which is the smallest size the manufacturer allows. And I can see why, as the chain is very close to dragging on the frame when in the 10t on the cassette.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
Thanks. Yes, on many frames unless if you’re going to limit out the smallest cogs you will end up with chain contact.
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Justin White
2 months, 1 week ago
"The A50 sees an upgrade to an 18t star ratchet DT Swiss 370 hub but I'm never going to be happy with 20° of hub engagement, so for me that's not a benefit over the A30's budget Novatec hub spec."
But at least the DT hub can be upgraded to better engagement, and isn't that part of the min-max battle: upgrading individual parts as needed instead of needing entire new systems. It's part of what makes a Linkglide setup so nice, why wouldn't it be a big bonus on the wheels?
Not saying the A50 is a better overall prospect, just that dismissing the hub spec that quickly maybe isn't maxing the mins.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
I feel like we’ve acted out this play before?
Andrew said ~: DT hubs are reliable in 18t and 36t formats but I’m unsatisfied with the 54t version both in wanting faster engagement than ~7-degrees and in terms of reliability.
Justin said ~: The 54t is reliable for me if I do lots of maintenance.
No?
I wouldn’t choose to run the DT Swiss hubs so I’ve listed what I would run as the best option/$ instead.
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Justin White
2 months, 1 week ago
I'm just thinking it's not really maxing the mins to swap an entire wheel, or throw down for a new hub and wheel rebuild, right off the top. Not when a ratchet swap, and a sharpie & a stack of sticky-notes to remind yourself to clean it every once in a while, is way less cost. Or at least ride the original wheel for a while, beat it up getting used to the new bike and experiment with inserts and tire casings, then get the new maxed wheel next season. It's not like you're going to get a huge discount on the new wheel build from a take-off OEM hub: you're literally throwing away part of the bundle savings of a complete bike.
And it's not that the lesser-tooth ratchets don't need the maintenance. They'll ride like garbage when they're dirty enough to cause a 54t to die outright. And at that point even a full clean isn't really helping the low-tooth counts: even a "burly" 18t repeatedly ridden dirty will get chewed up such that it will need cleaning even sooner each time, and then total lifetime is not drastically longer than an ignored 54t, and even shorter than a reasonalby maintained 54t. Many people seem to imply it'll last like 3x longer since it has 1/3 the teeth, except that's not the case.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
If I were buying a Slayer A50 the argument to upgrade the DT Swiss hub, over re-lacing the wheel with a different hub, could make sense. Although they do command a lot of money for a 54t ratchet upgrade, and, as noted, it's still only 7° engagement.
It's maybe also worth considering that, unlike the Novatec on the A30, the new-but-previously-laced DT Swiss 370 would be worth something on the buy-and-sell. Or maybe that's where it becomes a conversation of selling a wheel/buying a wheel.
The point of my comment in the article is that I don't see a DT Swiss 370 hub (with whichever ratchets) as a selling feature that would encourage me to spend more and choose the A50 over the A30. And, with the money saved by going with the A30 one of the upgrades I'd consider is a new rear hub, to replace the Novatec.
"The A50 sees an upgrade to an 18t star ratchet DT Swiss 370 hub but I'm never going to be happy with 20° of hub engagement, so for me that's not a benefit over the A30's budget Novatec hub spec."
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JD
2 months ago
Combining some past personal experience with the comments here about bearing life, rim durability, and hub maintenance... I think the proper min-max approach is to buy or build whatever your preferred "upgrade" complete rear wheel is, and keep the stocker in the closet, or maybe throw a different rear tire on it so you can easily switch things up.
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Tehllama42
2 months ago
Stock wheels as 2+2=4 donors to have the winter tires that don't roll great works amazingly well.
Steven Hambleton
2 months, 1 week ago
For me the number one thing I'd be fitting to a new Deore equipped bike is a Shimano XT shifter with it's own band for best adjustment.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
I’ve made the argument many times that the true secret to enjoying a budget-friendlier mountain bike is to make sure that all the contact points are things you like - grips, saddle, pedals, bar if you like a different shape, etc.
I have a friend who includes shifter and dropper remote in that equation. The only direct connection to the drivetrain are pedals and the shifter - if those feel rad the drivetrain feels rad. Makes sense to me.
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Steven Hambleton
2 months, 1 week ago
I agree with this! None of those parts (bar the saddle because I like it) on my bike are the ones that shipped with the bike.
Deity Supracush grips
Deity Deftrap pedals
Chromag FU50 bar
ZTTO dropper lever
Shimano XT shifter
AbsoluteBlack 32T oval chainring (yes it makes a difference!)
Shimano 12sp Deore is great with the better shifter.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
Yeah, the Deore 6100 stuff is actually comparable to XT or XTR with the shifter and chain upgraded to the same, and the all steel cassette lasts longer.
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Mike Wallace
2 months, 1 week ago
But dang those DHR2 DD maxterra are hard to find….
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
Maxxis has SKUwered themselves with options.
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BarryW
2 months, 1 week ago
Great article Andrew!
I've been thinking of the chainring size thing for a bit myself. As in my wife and I regularly use our 52 tooth cogs when on steep stuff (northwestern Washington) and she's on a 27.5 with an Absolute Black 30 tooth oval, and until a few weeks ago I was on a 29er with the stock 32 tooth ring, now on a cheap Amazon narrow-wide ring tht never dropped a chain after riding the bike park at Snoqualmie Pass. But I haven't do'e enough climbing on it to know if I'm going to use anything but the biggest three on most climbs.
My issue is I can't find smaller than 30 tooth rings on 96bcd asymmetric.
I'm thinking I'll have to go to different cranksets to go to 28 tooth. And I think that'll be perfect for me and my wife and will certainly work on our bikes. (Polygon Siskiu T7 small, 27.5 hers; 29er large T8 mine). Although I'll need to adjust my STFU chain device.
Any advice on that min-max for me?
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Steven Hambleton
2 months, 1 week ago
Raceface cranks with the cinch system are good for smaller chainrings, I think they go as low as 26T.
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BarryW
2 months, 1 week ago
I've seen those, it's just a lot of outlay just to go smaller on the chainring.
We'll, probably worth it after you cost burning through cassettes a couple times because the big ring is prematurely worn.
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Lu Kz
2 months, 1 week ago
Remember how good last year's black Friday was for bike parts for the first time (pre covid the bike industry had never gone whole hog into the black friday thing, at least in canada)? I think this year will be like that, but even more. Brands have been trying to dump stuff since August, anything left over by November is going to go even deeper - plus, a lot of 2024 stuff will be shipping then so they will be extra motivated to not have some stuff. I wouldn't be surprised if you could pick up some totally reasonable aeffect or similar cranks for a song and a dance at that time.
I got some blackspire badger cranks (28t smallest option) for a little into 100 bucks CAD. I think you'll be alright with some patience.
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Kos
2 months, 1 week ago
" Just give me Shimano SP41 4mm housing and Shimano stainless steel shifter cables."
The good stuff, for sure. Also, don't roll your new bike out the door of your LBS with an NX or GX chain on it. A few dollars to move up to XO1 will take you a lot further down the road before replacement is needed.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
I say the same thing with Shimano bikes. A chain upgrade makes such a difference versus other parts when it comes to longevity. That is a product though where I would probably run the stock chain to 1/2 life before replacing. What's an already-installed chain worth to anyone?
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Justin White
2 months, 1 week ago
Hundo percent on the XO1 chain. However, I'm not sure many shops are going to make that swap for "a few dollars" more. Take-off chains are probably second hardest things to sell besides take-off brake pads. Definitely recommend walking out of the store with an XO1 chain ready to go, maybe ask the shop to pre-cut it to length, and just swap it out after a few hundred miles.
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AlanB
2 months, 1 week ago
When I bought my road-ish CX bike I also went for fenders, so the shop installed them for free. Every fall when I re-install them I appreciate the pro job Obsession did with mounting the stays around the front brake caliper.
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SuspensionLab_JonoChurch
2 months, 1 week ago
Im always amazed people still seem to be skeptical of how much better SP41 is than the factory fitted housings! I used to always replace it on new mid-high end builds, because you just knew the bike would be back in a week because of dodgy shifting if you didn’t……stuff like that works out cheaper in long run just doing right in the first place
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
I feel like everyone in the bike industry knows this and they must save so much money on cheap cable/housing spec. that they do it anyway?
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Justin White
2 months, 1 week ago
I understand* you guys are trying to offer an ideal ride, but when you look at it from the other side, you just see everyone in the bike industry trying to sell you on something by insisting that someone else did it completely wrong. This is why some (many?) people think shops are trying to rip them off.
Plenty of people have been rallying bikes with Jagwire or SRAM housing for years without complaints in shifting. Then they come in for a brand-new bike, and you tell them that they need to immediately spend more and swap the brand-new housing**, or it literally won't shift right? How are they supposed to trust any of the decisions that bike manufacturer made, if you're insisting that they intentionally used known-bad cable housing? If they skimped on housing, how much did they skimp on brake pads? Bearings? Quality control?
It's a bit like religion: if you're right, it means everyone else is wrong and going to hell. Not the best look.
* (I literally just bought yet another Shimano 2x kit immediately after replacing my mech and dropper cable sets. Always have the next replacement ready as a backup.)
** (Just the housing? Not the cable? SRAM and Shimano cables are/were different sizes, not going to be ideal to so mismatch the cable to housing.)
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
“Not the best look.”
Not the best look for whom? When I write for NSMB I’m working for the general readership, not bike shops or bike brands.
I’ll be stoked if I hear from friends at local shops that customers are asking for cable & housing upgrades and referencing my work. Even better if it gets back to the bike brands. Spec’ing garbage creates garbage.
———
“** (Just the housing? Not the cable? SRAM and Shimano cables are/were different sizes, not going to be ideal to so mismatch the cable to housing.)”
From the article above:
“Just give me Shimano SP41 4mm housing and Shimano stainless steel shifter cables.”
Also, SRAM 1.1mm cables, or NOS Shimano 1.1mm cables (if you can find them) work great in Shimano 4mm housing, as do Shimano 1.2mm cables.
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SuspensionLab_JonoChurch
2 months ago
I was saying i would swap the housing and inner cable out for free from the get go - probably not even mention it, because I had (and still do) frequently see new bikes with average average shifting from new. In the past it wasn’t so bad, but as the number of gears increased, full length housing and complex routing became the norm, any excess friction started to add up in a big way. It’s a small cost for the shop up front but it’s better than the customer coming back and wasting time trying to re-tune the gears or fitting new hosing later on, which is either wasting even more shop time and money or making the customer pay for extra work that they shouldn’t have to. Neither of those options are acceptable for either party. The cost vs benefit of it is totally worth it IMO, with genuine advantages for not much cost, whereas going down the rabbit hole of replacing everything with my “preference” would be foolish and it’s more likely that brand is not worth selling if it needed that much work. I strongly dislike the attitude of “everyone else does it wrong” for that same reason - it erodes confidence in the brand that you are supposedly representing, and prefer to spin it in a way that shows the customer you e paid attention to those things but not make too big of a deal about it.
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Justin White
2 months ago
Even doing the swap at no cost still erodes confidence in the brand in question. You're saying they can't even spec and then QC a simple cable housing. Why would I then think they can do every other part of the bike well?
Doing it opaquely (not even mentioning it) brings up a whole different can of worms. Now they're unknowingly not getting what they paid for, doesn't matter if you think it's better. What happens if they take it to another dealer shop and they won't warranty a cable or related issue because it's not the original cable? Sure they can bring it back to you, but that's a big surprise and waste of time if they need the repair while somewhere else.
Good on you for trying to make things easier to the customer, but that's a rare shop that willingly takes a hit on the profit margins of a full bike sale. Especially for big brand dealer shops, where you're going to see more questionable housing specs.
Dislike it or not, you're extending the “everyone else does it wrong" attitude by opaquely doing unasked for work, even doing transparently but unbidden. Insisting on swapping on the housing on every bike (of a certain price point spec, I'm assuming) is kinda making a big deal out of it. Spreading the word and doing it upon request for free or cheap is showing attention to detail.
But right now you're telling everyone that you know better than the brands. Literally taking the wrench out of the customer's hands, going "let me do that for you, you want it my way, I know better", so that they never even get the chance to learn about compromises in price-point bikes. If they ever buy from a different shop (or you forget, or decide it's too expensive, to swap blindly), they're going to be pissed when the cables on a similar price-point bike wear out so fast (assuming your fatalism about the whole housing thing is warranted).
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Andrew Major
2 months ago
"Even doing the swap at no cost still erodes confidence in the brand in question. You're saying they can't even spec and then QC a simple cable housing. Why would I then think they can do every other part of the bike well?"
Seriously, who cares? Do you work for a bike company? I don't.
The way I see it there's an easy solution (two actually) which is to spec. good quality cables/housing or to go wireless. But to me, this is all no different than having the conversation about upgrading a chain because the bike manufacturer went with a down-spec option knowing the majority of folks would never notice. It's value-added differentiation at the shop level.
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Tehllama42
2 months ago
The only challenge is that completely non-sophisticated goofballs like me in desert areas can add two drops of the wrong lubricant and never perceive a difference for the life of the frame... I'd rather the economies of scale favored quality at small cost differences, but that's not how cutthroat boom and bust cycles work in cyclical industries
Tehllama42
2 months ago
I have so many more thoughts on this... the size of this comments section speaks volumes about how this topic resonates with the reader base.
For my part, I'm back to thinking about what bike I'd build with an unlimited budget... but as soon as I put a value bent on the idea, I'm looking at refreshing or upgrading the suspension on my current bike, refreshing friction surfaces, and sending it on a decade old frame, and just accepting that I'll only ever own one fully bespoke custom bike, and it'll be a dentist edition of something kinda boring and lower travel, as I age/risk tolerance out of doing the less sane things on a bike with very limited time to actually advance my skills (especially with jumping or doing fast tech sections)
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Andrew Major
2 months ago
It begs the question, what decade-old frame?
And yeah, I was pleasantly surprised how many folks took the time to engage.
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Tehllama42
1 month, 4 weeks ago
2014 Rocky Mountain Instinct. Wasn't ever intended to be a 'dream bike', just kept putting carbon fiber and other nice parts on it until I'm basically out of ideas to make it better without spending big money for very small marginal improvements (e.g. going from XT-8000 series brakes to Maguras, or 11spd e.13/XT to 12spd of the same).
I'm trying to figure out how you all can make this a cool series of stuff, because I'm obviously not the only one who enjoyed reading it and got to thinking pretty hard about it.
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Mammal
2 months, 1 week ago
I've been wanting a burlier pedal rig for a while, so I pulled the trigger on a new Capra (no bike stores involved). I was only planning on using the frame, wheels, and a few other bits, but with a delivered price of $3100, old bike/new take-offs resale risk seemed low. Even with a collapsed resale market.
I've decided to sell the old one it as frame and parts separately, and wait patiently. We'll see how that goes.
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SixZeroSixOne
2 months, 1 week ago
I obviously don't know how to shop for bike parts - I've just paid slightly under 100 bucks for a single disc rotor and around 80 bucks for a single set of pads. WTF! 😯
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
If only you had bought the rotors and pads with a bike? Think of the discount!
No, service parts (pads, chains, rings, etc) seem to be the one category holding value.
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Justin White
2 months, 1 week ago
Most any multi-link suspension is going to be slightly more amenable to a small chainring than a single-pivot, but it's not going to be completely agnostic. The chainline is still going to move down in relation to the instant-center, which is going to increase anti-squat from chain-tension. Because the IC usually isn't right there at the main pivot and close to the chainline as on a (low) single-pivot, the chainline moves relatively less on a multi-link, but it still moves. Even with high-pivots, you're still moving the chainline from the idler to ring away from the IC, which will increase AS.
Those bikes are definitely not completely agnostic to chainring size, but defintiely less finicky than simple single-pivots.
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
“…but it's not going to be completely agnostic…”
Close enough is good enough for me. Standard disclaimer that these are the opinions and experiences of someone who chooses to ride a rigid single-speed.
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Justin White
2 months ago
Then I guess you're not going to mention suspension bob or anti-squat in any more reviews? Since close enough is good enough, just deal with whatever the suspension designer gives you.
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Andrew Major
2 months ago
I think you might be confusing my reviews with someone else's. I deal in impressions, not absolutes, and don't focus much on suspension kinematics. There are any number of folks working in mountain bike media much smarter than me who approach bike reviews from that direction.
I'm not big on HP+I bikes, but certainly one of the benefits of the design is that I could happily ride a wide range of chainring sizes. That either has value to a reader or it doesn't.
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Lowcard
2 months, 1 week ago
I've bought 2 complete mountain bikes this summer, as well as another frame just because of the deals to be had. What a time to be alive!
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Leerum
2 months, 1 week ago
I was running a 28t chainring on my chilcotin 151, and again on my highlander 2. No problems on either, shift is great, and I am staying out of my two lowest gears a lot - it's a great time.
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Bli33ard
2 months ago
So, just read the article and I'm saying to myself yes... yes.. yes! I've built my own bikes for some time, and you have to determine what you need (your bike doesn't "need" anything), where to spend the money to get you to where you want to be. Shimano does make fine cables, stock gearing might not fit how you ride, and if you ride within reason you can save a lot of weight! There's a slim chance anything breaks but extra weight will always be there.
This I can say though, having just built my bike, is the standards are hard to keep track of and you might find it frustrating but starting with a new frame is very rewarding. The specs of the bike built from that frame should be available so if you use that as your template it shouldn't be that hard but I went way out on a limb....
OK, grocery prices were a bit of an aside but these days I just say a Twenty is the new Five~ Well it's not that bad but when a mechanic wants $60 to do something where specialty tools and fluids are involved I wouldn't balk at that. Hell, I just told some guy from Craigslist I wouldn't get off the couch for $40! Anyway, you can always stand another bike so I'm building an old Norco 125 frame into a beater, and use the bike for biking.
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Bli33ard
2 months ago
Ride your bike. What else is relevant?
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XXX_er
2 months, 1 week ago
How was letting people wank on about how much they hate E-bikes and doing nothing intelligent or informative and to whom ? It went on until one of you finally said " don't like it don't read it"
So who is calling out whom ?
So you can have the last word now
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XXX_er
2 months, 1 week ago
The price of stuff is the price of stuff, I average out what i paid for the avocado now vs previously and so i did not forgo the avocado toast this morning
summer 21 I got a real good price for a yeti from an MD, I got rid of it with no other bike cuz it didnt matter if she made 300k per year there were still no Yetis to buy, supply & demand eh
I been sourcing parts for a 2 yr drive-train refresh and I noticed the Calgary shops are really after my business, for some reason the cowtown shops come up in my browser, if they ain't got it or are out of stock they ask if I wana leave an e-mail and they get back real quick using a first name so I've had 3 shops trying to sell me an SDG seatpost last week while I had been asking myself how will I ever get ahold of one of these things before spring
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
“The price of stuff is the price of stuff, I average out what i paid for the avocado now vs previously and so i did not forgo the avocado toast this morning”
Stoked for you? I know this is a mountain bike website and everyone reading this is wealthy by global standards, but profiteering by grocery chains is having a massive effect on families and it costs nothing to have a bit of empathy.
———
SDG dropper posts are absolute slag. If you really want one email Guerrilla Gravity and they’ll probably sell you a giant box of them for dimes on the dollar.
Personally, if that was my only option I’d use a fixed post and a quick release and invest the cost difference in a supply of avocado toast.
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XXX_er
2 months, 1 week ago
well then lets talk about sailing , apparently its fine to fuck up what passes for journalism around here if we talk about sailing,
more articals about sailing please !
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
I think you're confusing journalism and media. I don't think anyone who writes for NSMB is claiming to be a journalist? I certainly am not.
I write reviews of expensive toys and also about accessories and upgrades for said toys, which privileged adults, including myself, play with in the forest. I also write editorial content about the activity, which I love, and work at... or at least attempt to work at... fostering a genuinely nice online community through those efforts. I recognize I'm far from perfect, I'm always trying to do better.
If you don't like it there are two courses of action which I'd recommend:
1) Don't click/comment on pieces that have my name clearly listed in the byline. It's very easy to avoid my work and I will not interfere/interact with your comments anywhere else on this site.
OR:
2) E-mail the publisher and ask for a full refund of your subscription fees.
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XXX_er
2 months, 1 week ago
well look at you, It would appear Andrew has finally grown a pair !
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Andrew Major
2 months, 1 week ago
“It would appear Andrew has finally grown a pair !”
This, usually anonymous, toxic/macho bullshit remains my least favourite part of the mountain biking subculture. I don’t think I’m out of place calling you on it.
It’s really sad to me that you’re continuing to bring this energy to what are otherwise, informative conversations. There are a lot of great examples you could follow in this thread on how to have a respectful and intelligent disagreement with someone.
Again, it is very easy to skip over my work and focus on other material.
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