REVIEW PART II
Review Updates: SRAM Maven Brakes and Panzer Inserts
The rollout of SRAM's Maven brakes was a little rocky. Some users experienced "pump out" (one theory was that this was related to too much time in a warehouse causing seals to lose some flexibility). Others found a wandering bite point and bleeding challenges. My first go wasn't a home run either with a bleed (from SRAM) that didn't seem to get all the air out. Others complained about the heavier-than-most dead stroke. A YouTuber even posted a video of himself shaking out his hands because they were so sore from the effort of using Mavens to slow his bike on a descent of 200 metres.
SRAM seems to concede that these brakes aren't like the others. The bleed process includes an unusual step called the "piston massage." It's a quick and simple process that has been effective for me. You simply install the pad spacer and squeeze the brake lever. After that you use the wider end of the spacer to push the pistons back and then repeat the process. Alternately the same procedure can be performed by alternating between clamping two rotors and then one. It seems the seals SRAM is using for these mineral oil brakes are a little stiffer than some others but most seem to respond to this break-in procedure and mine have been very consistent over the longer term. A few may have slipped between the cracks, whether this was due to a storage issue or not, that took longer to break in.
In case you missed it, my launch review of the Mavens is here.
After beginning the test on a Yeti SB160, which is no longer around, the Mavens are on the Norco Range VLT C1 I have been testing. It weighs around 60 lbs (27 kg) so it puts me into Clydesdale territory.
That previously mentioned video however, is puzzling indeed. While some riders have complained about the heavy pull of the dead stroke, possibly a result of the aforementioned stiffer seals, I have never once noticed the heavier dead stroke while riding. I don't even think I'd notice the difference between these and Hayes Dominions, perhaps the lightest-pull levers of any current brakes. What I continue to notice is that the force required to produce significant friction at the rotor is lower than other brakes I have used. The Hope Tech E4V4 are close, and I'm more than happy riding them, but when it comes to sheer power without the need to white knuckle, Mavens are the champs.
My 180mm rear rotor achieved the perfect hue, according to SRAM. Rainbows mean the rotor got too hot and no discolouration means not enough heat has been generated. I should go down a rotor size up front based on that evidence, but performance has been good.
I haven't even considered going to up to 220/200mm rotors because the power is spot on. SRAM says if your rotors are turning copper or golden from heat, that's ideal. If there are rainbows you should go up a rotor size and if you aren't getting any discolouration, you should go down a size. The golden hue indicates your brakes have hit Goldilocks temperatures in use. Too hot is bad but too cool is a problem as well. The rear I swapped out recently seems too have just the right hue.
The "piston massage" is a very quick and easy procedure. It's also been effective for me.
The bleed kit is excellent and the process is very simple. It seems easier than Codes to me in fact. I have bled these successfully a few times. Once to put them on a different bike (rear bleed only) and once recently, when I started to feel like the rear bite point was wandering. I did a quick bleed with the more modest piston massage, which involves using SRAM's pad spacer's two widths to get the seals moving, but once I had everything apart it was clear that my pads were done, which likely explained the wandering lever. To perform the massage, you simply insert the spacers with the narrower (2 mm) side between the pistons and advance them until they touch. After that you wedge in the opposite side (3.8 mm) and then finish by advancing them to the 2 mm side. Early on there was a suggested procedure that advanced them further but I haven't needed that since the brakes were newer.
If you have an issue with the weight of the dead stroke, you can shorten that distance by playing with both the reach adjustment and the contact point adjustment. While I was fiddling with this I noticed that the dead stroke seems lighter when the contact point is all the way in.
When I did the bleed and realized the pads were toast, I decided to try the metallic pads. I was told that the bite point and performance was likely to be more consistent. I'm a fan of organic pads generally because they are quieter, they don't seem to require as much time to heat up, and they seem to perform better in the wet.
When I swapped the pads, my Scottish blood was boiling as I took SRAM's advice and went with a fresh rotor as well. I prefer to use things until they are completely toast. Experts in the braking field will tell you swapping out a rotor is a good idea when swapping pads (particularly with different compounds) because your pads don't actually make contact with your rotors, at least not until after the break in period apparently. Your braking surface comes to consist of material from your brake pads, so cross pollinating these could result in compromised performance. I have done this many times (and will do it again) without noticing any issues but I'm not lining up against Loic Bruni. My first rides using the metallic pads on the rear have been similarly excellent and the brakes do feel a little more solid and consistent.
The Maven Ultimate Expert kit (limited edition at release) comes with two sets of pads - organic (right) and metallic, and four rotors: a 220, 2 x 200s and a 180.
Big Descents
While in Whistler during Crankworx I did some big descents on these brakes. I rode Crazy Train, Micro Climate, Bring on the Weekend (twice), parts of Howler, Zanarchy to Gargamel, Tunnel Vision, Dark Crystal, Get Down on it (twice), two new trails I've forgotten the names of and a couple of big downs in the Whistler Bike Park. I didn't once experience any fade or loss of performance and I never once had to theatrically shake out my hands (for the camera) because they were sore. I did however, as mentioned, begin to feel some wandering bite point in the rear brake which was more than likely related to worn pads. I bled it before changing the pads however so I can't confirm the pad wear was entirely responsible.
It appears my front rotor hasn't been getting up to the optimal temperature range. That's a shame because I can't run a 180mm rotor on the Zeb. Fortunately it's been working very well so maybe it's just at the lower end of optimal?
Updated Verdict
While these brakes aren't without their quirks, they have exceeded my performance and comfort expectations. My hands get less tired and I'm able to ride in as much control as I'd like. I haven't encountered a situation where the Mavens were challenged. I can feather them so well it feels like they are an extension of my body. Only hotter.
While I have done some very long descents, I have been riding in groups and we've been stopping at regular intervals. I'll need to do some of these rides in longer sections to see if I can generate enough heat to make them fade a little. Stay tuned!
It would be one thing if this was the only place where the rear Panzer insert failed. Unfortunately there are at least 10 of these on each side of the insert.
Panzer Aggressive Inserts - Short Review Update
I was optimistic about Panzer Aggressive inserts when they arrived. I liked the shape, the feel of the material, and the fact that they are very light. I was pretty keen on them after a month or so of riding as well. Until I removed them to have a look.
Snake bites galore.
I didn't expect to find any damage at all based on my experience with other inserts.
I put these through some nasty business with uninterrupted descents to see how they do in run flat situations but I treated them the same way I treat other inserts during testing. I had some early CushCores that didn't take kindly to impacts and ended up with holes right through and other damage in short order, but otherwise the inserts I have tested have stood up very well to awful treatment. That Includes Flat Tire Defender, Cushcore E, Octamousse, Tannus and others, and many of them are still in service.
A great shape and only 140 grams. Everything looked great.
The rear Panzer on the other hand was destroyed. The wings that extend out over the rim sidewall each have at least 10 spots where the rim has cut through the material and either left a gaping hole or partially separated the material from the rest of the insert. I was pretty shocked by how badly these did. I buy that inserts are a wear item, but they shouldn't be a two month wear item in my book. And let's not forget that Panzer calls these their "Aggressive" inserts. If you are actually an aggressive rider, I recommend you look elsewhere, at least for your rear tire. I may use the one I had in the front again, but I won't put this generation of Panzer insert into my rear tire again.
Comments
Ryan Walters
4 weeks ago
Maven owner here - my 2 cents:
-They were a BEAR to setup correctly. I consider myself quite mechanically inclined, and have setup plenty of brakes. The Mavens were quite fussy to setup. The included pro-level bleed kit is awesome though. My issues stemmed from the dreaded “pump-out”, and it took lots of faffing / massaging / bleedto get it to diminish (never fully got rid of it, but I feel it’s at an acceptable level now - either that, or I’m just growing accustomed to it…)
-I do certainly notice the heavier lever feel, but have yet to experience any pain or fatigue from this.
-They are very powerful. After putting all the setup nonsense behind me, I really appreciate the ability to brake harder and later. I don’t feel they are as insane as others have claimed - I wasn’t able to drop a rotor size on the front, but was able on the rear (currently running 220/200).
-They have been reliable and almost fade free for me. Currently using metallics, and will try the organic in the winter. I’m really hoping they will be quieter than my old Codes.
Reply
justwan naride
4 weeks ago
Holly $hiT, my 2yr old Nukeproof ARD looks much better than that Panzer. I was seriously considering them, but not now.
Reply
Lynx .
4 weeks ago
Wanted to do a separate post regarding the whole colour/temp thing on the rotors, because well, interesting and something I've never heard another manufacturer even mention.
Not a metal worker, definitely not a blade smith, but have taken interest and watch quite a few videos on making and heat treating blades/metal and a straw colour normally indicates tempering, i.e. softening of the hardness of the steel after it's been super hardened to stop it from being brittle. Now watching those videos, the straw colour seems to be the ideal one to introduce some temper, but still keep the steel/metal strong and good to hold an edge.
Curious if you thought to ask them as to the "why" behind this? I know they say it's because the brakes should operate at a certain temperature, but not sure if taking the rotors up to tempering temperature all the time wouldn't result in them loosing their hardening and maybe wearing out quicker than they normally would not being tempered all the time.
Reply
Cam McRae
4 weeks ago
I believe the optimal temperature has more to do with pad temperature than rotor temperature, although obviously those are closely tied.
EDIT - Chris Mandell told me both rotor and pads need to reach (but not exceed) optimal temp range for best case performance.
His theory on the absence of discolouration on my front rotor is that I use it in more of an on or off manner whereas the rear likely spends more consistent time in use
I have ridden on some rotors that appeared to have been tie dyed in preparation for Woodstock. The pads were sometimes toast but the rotors lived on in my recollection. Perhaps not as effectively though.
Reply
Tjaard Breeuwer
3 weeks, 5 days ago
Of course the rear rotor gets hotter.
First off, you said you use a 180mm rear, and 200mm front right?
Second, the front rotor is more exposed to air to cool down.
And most importantly, most riders seem to generate anywhere from 60-95% of their total braking power for their rear brake, with the most people, on steep, technical trails, being closer to the high
This makes sense, when we think of the basic coaching statement that:
“Front brakes slow you down, rear brakes keep you from speeding up”
I got those number from Brake Ace. The make power meters for mtb brakes. They have a podcast and almost always mention the power ratio when they discus a run.
In other words, rear brakes generate about 50-90% more heat than front brakes, over the course of the run.
Reply
Lynx .
3 weeks, 5 days ago
Rear brakes generate more heat because they don't do fvck all in slowing you down compared to the front, they help you to steer the bike, so if you're someone who thinks they can and try to use them as such, then for sure you're going to wear them out sooner and most likely overheat them if you don't have a big enough rotor because you're going to be using them a crap ton more than if you used the front.
You only need to push your bike forward and pull the rear brake and watch what happens, then push it again and pull the front, simple physics. Swap that around and roll the bike back and see which one stops you then.
Reply
Ryan Walters
4 weeks ago
Attached photo shows the colour you want from Mavens operating at the correct temperature:
Reply
Lynx .
4 weeks ago
Ouch Ryan :-\ Can I ask, HTF did you get a hot rotor up there? I understand getting the hot rotor tattoo, got one a couple times myself on my calf, but there, above your belt, did you fall and the bike land on you?
Reply
Ryan Walters
4 weeks ago
Yeah, it was an interesting crash. Bike ended up on top of me after a steep descent with plenty of braking.
That picture was taken over a month later. I suspect I’ll have that “reminder” for a while!
Reply
Lynx .
3 weeks, 6 days ago
Dang man, have you been putting anything on it to help it heal? Think you might be right, you might end up with a tattoo. LOL
I remember my last one, I thought that it would leave an actual scar/tattoo of the same pattern, but it was gone in a couple weeks.
Reply
Ryan Walters
3 weeks, 6 days ago
You should have seen it in the week after the crash! It was blistered and scabby. It was a pretty good burn! Kept applying polysporin until the scab was gone. Considering the terrain I was in, the rotors must have been smoking hot.
Will make for a good story at the pool I guess!
Ben Pye
3 weeks, 6 days ago
Ryan you need to start using Bio-oil on that. https://www.bio-oil.com/en it'll get rid of the scarring and help it heal.
Reply
Cooper Quinn
4 weeks ago
Brakes need heat to operate - that nice straw shows you can get them hot enough, once. It doesn't show you're doing it regularly or anything like that, just that they've been that hot. It's a max-heat indicator, kinda.
Rainbows show you're overheating them - this is bad for brake performance, as well as bad for rotors.
No colors mean you're not capable of getting brakes through their full prime operating window.
Its just a convenient way to see if you're in the ballpark (or over or under), not real science.
Reply
Pete Roggeman
3 weeks, 6 days ago
But but but...we like rainbows!
Reply
Pete Roggeman
3 weeks, 6 days ago
I wonder if part of the colour thing is impacted by brake pad matter on the rotor as well, and whether that is a factor here?
Reply
Lynx .
3 weeks, 6 days ago
No Pete as the colouration is on the arms, nothing to do with the brake pads. The braking surface should remain silver, the colour thing is strictly a thing of heat into the rotor, if you start to get the rainbow, then colour will move into the braking surface and the temper of the rotor will be lost and you can experience easier bending of the rotor, even just from the rotor getting to hot and then coming back down to cool temp too soon, i.e. if you squirt some water on them to cool them.
Reply
Pete Roggeman
3 weeks, 6 days ago
Right, of course.
Reply
Tjaard Breeuwer
3 weeks, 5 days ago
I have actually read that “color thing” about rotors before, at least about overheating them. I think that’s was from Hope.
Reply
Anthony Schroeder
4 weeks ago
I think it is pretty ambitious (for you or commenters) to presume malice or incompetence with another reviewer's review. It isn't like every single one is full of crap etc. And you yourself note that there were known issues with the launch stock of this material. So a known faulty launch is accompanied by less than steller reviews where issues are found?
I don't mean to be an ass here, but there is a literal section in his video where he does an isolated deadweight test and it does indeed show a *huge* delta in that weight.
It may well be that his particular units were defective in some way, he notes that while codes were stiffer than his preferred options, these were exceptionally stiff. It seems utterly ridiculous to suggest that the specific review or experiences are invalid or made for clicks.
I really like the content here on NSMB, I've been reading for years, but this comes off as extremely unprofessional on the sites part. [If you allow this comment even to be posted]
Reply
Cam McRae
4 weeks ago
Anthony,
We don’t delete comments unless they contravene our terms of use, and yours certainly does not. In fact I’m glad you were willing to share your opinion.
It takes a lot to get me to call out a situation like this and I certainly gave it some thought, but his experience is so far from mine and from every other person I’ve spoken to who has ridden Mavens, that there has to be something going on.
Calling his video, The Big Red Disappointment is a big clue. In fact that doesn’t reflect many of his impressions either. He calls them the best brakes SRAM has made as well. Somehow that didn’t make it into the title.
But then he says, (right after stopping to shake out his hands) “I would say that in the current market Mavens are one of, if not the most, fatiguing brakes out there.” I’m not super human in terms of my endurance abilities while braking in challenging terrain, and they likely aren’t as good as Dale’s, but I didn’t have this issue ever. In fact it was the exact opposite. The force required to get a very powerful braking response is lower than other brakes I have ridden. Now that’s a delta.
Beyond that, his weight test doesn’t replicate what SRAM declares on their site, which strikes me as disingenuous;
“With Maven, it takes 32% lighter input force at the lever to generate the same amount of power as Code, reducing fatigue and boosting control for massive bike park days, rowdy DH race terrain, and long enduro stages.”
Dale measured the dead stroke. He’s measuring how much effort it takes to move the lever from its static position to its contact position. SRAM doesn’t mention this at all. And while I agree that the force required here is more than others, it’s a tiny fraction of the force required to stop a bike hurtling down a hill at 60k. I’d argue it’s so small as to be negligible. His measurement indicates nothing about clamping force at the rotor. Dale is clearly a smart guy so you have to ask yourself why he is comparing dissimilar metrics?
I suspect that you wouldn’t have written this comment if you had ridden Mavens because you would then understand what I’m talking about. As someone pointed out to me this morning, social media outlets love a conspiracy; they generate the most clicks.
I have an issue with people being misled. I’m not saying this was done intentionally, but the impact is the same whether it was initiated by malice, some error in set up, or some other factor. Having potential customers believe that Mavens are “the most fatiguing brakes out there,” is something I couldn’t abide by because it’s the opposite of the truth. I wish Dale the best and I’d love to see him give Mavens another look because I’m certain there was some issue with the conclusions he came to.
Reply
Lynx .
4 weeks ago
Dale seems like a really nice guy and great, tech rider, I started following him when he wasn't long started, had <500 subs and just made videos to record the sport he loved. His video quality, angles etc were great and the riding was very different from most you were seeing of bike parks/bermed out smooth trail, more my style of trail and riding. Then he got a sponsor, then another, then he started following the YT algorithm or trying to and things started to change, when he quit his job as an engineer at Norco to go full time YT, that's when I stopped watching as much and believing his "recommendations" as a fellow rider, because now he was counting on views and sponsorship for his income instead of just doing it for the love - sorry, but once money gets involved, principles tend to be relaxed or worse.
Reply
Anthony Schroeder
4 weeks ago
Honestly, based on your own comments from the very beginning of the review period and even in this particular article... It doesn't seem like current batches are remotely relevant to the launch experience of this product. And in Dale's own video even his pseudo graphic says basically that. At high loads, this thing was great. At initial bite, it was a PITA for him. That is a totally valid thing to complain about, and if SRAM is marketing this as less fatiguing, then complaining about fatiguing from any source (even if caused by deadstroke, not full stroke) is 100% valid. He's measuring the fatigue source he found, because it was abnormally high in his view. He even notes that, 'technically the marketing might be correct' and yet he found it misleading himself.
I don't see how you are conflating his stuff, but then giving a pass on the marketing themselves. I certainly wouldn't give a pass to the existing marketing from anything even in your review, let alone his.
Even within these comment sections, you have two owners who did note that it is noticeably heavier than what they used before, and another that mentioned it was particularly painful to get dialed in just right. Now you can say all you want about maybe Dale just didn't have his done in right, maybe he needed to adjust piston position more etc, but suggesting its just for show, and it couldn't matter to anyone is pretty ridiculous. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me that people can't get RSI from mice or keyboards because there is low/no load. A mushy lever often doesn't actually affect real world peak performance from hydraulic brakes, and yet that feel is considered discomforting to say the least.
Honestly, I think the 'if you had your own anecdotal evidence riding them you'd understand' thing is missing the entire point of reviewers. I don't have enough experience on a variety of different hydraulic brakes (controlled for wildly different bike types/environments) to say a damn thing. Hopefully, you do. That's why we read reviewers. It is good and healthy for reviewers to disagree on products. I'm glad that at least 'nominally' they are checking what other people say and noting that disagreement.
"I wish Dale the best and I’d love to see him give Mavens another look because I’m certain there was some issue with the conclusions he came to."
This is not how your article read. It is not how your comments read. This would be a great statement, but the shade you threw in the article wasn't even as justified as your comment here, and that comment here isn't sufficient justification for any shade IMO. Of course, opinions do vary. If it was for clicks, then clearly it didn't work as the much less well known intend brakes got the same views.
---
Side Comment: These days most people don't use hydraulic disk brakes to the limits of technical capability (traction is lost far before then), I wouldn't even consider it relevant to ask the maximal stopping power, unless it is woefully incompetent. It is not relevant in almost any real world situation.
Heat soak and consistent hard riding behavior though absolutely is, but so long as peak power is beyond traction limit, you could have 300mm rotors for all it matters. If I act stupid, I can break traction with 160mm 2pot disks even on dry tarmac with wide slick tires, despite being a heavy rider. Ease of power modulation, so that you can hold the edge of traction, that seems useful, sure. Maybe there is an edge case when you really actually need that peak power. I expect it is much more about the other things listed above though.
We got here with cars about 30 years ago, where the honest truth was that brakes on basically every car were better than anyone needed or used them to be in terms of true peak performance. And so, ABS became standard.... (end tangent)
Reply
Cam McRae
4 weeks ago
I received the first batch of product, before launch. The Maven Ultimate Expert kit, which was what Dale had.
If he was only complaining about the dead stroke (which doesn't cause fatigue for anyone who rides as much as Dale) and not shaking his hands and calling them "the most fatiguing brakes on the market, I would have no issue with his observations.
As far as the two owners go, they were talking about the dead stroke. I mentioned that as well. That's not what Dale was talking about. He was talking about needing to stop and shake out his hands after 200m of descending. This isn't talking about fatigue from dead stroke; that's fatigue from braking on a downhill. If you don't need your brakes you don't need to get into the stroke, particularly if you have the levers set up without much dead stroke.
The marketing and his measurements examined two different metrics entirely. SRAM never said they had the lightest dead stroke, which was what Dale measured. This was a huge fail any way you look at it. They were talking about the power required to get clamping force at the rotor, which they claimed was 32% less than Codes, which based on my experience seems entirely plausible. You haven't mentioned this. Or maybe you didn't notice it when you watched his video?
I called it as I saw it. I said that I wasn't suggesting he did this maliciously or even consciously. The result is the same; a misleading conclusion based on a false equivalency. Whether it was disingenuous or not I can't say, but it attracted a lot of attention (click numbers or not) and got him a lot of new subscribers and I am all but certain there was something wrong with his brakes or he made a decision about what conclusion to come to. His conclusions are at odds with mine, many riders whose opinions I respect, and those of us in mountain bike media who are corporate shills. (SRAM doesn't advertise with us btw).
Being in media requires a thick skin. People often challenge your conclusions or approaches, like you are challenging mine here. I don't mind but at this point I'm sticking to my initial reaction; there is something fishy about his "Big Red Disappointment" video. And I think that needed to be called out.
In terms of your aside, one of the things I noticed is that, because the Mavens require less pressure to generate braking force, modulation is improved. Smaller muscles are more precise, as are muscles that are less fatigued. I agree with you about traction in most situations, but having it available without having to burn out your hands makes a real difference, which is exactly what I found here. Are they the Holy Grail? I wouldn't say so but they are up there with Hopes for the riding I do and they have more usable power and are easier to bleed.
PS- This was a comment I made so it's in the comments. And it is sincere.
"I wish Dale the best and I’d love to see him give Mavens another look because I’m certain there was some issue with the conclusions he came to."
Reply
ohio
3 weeks, 6 days ago
I hadn't ever watched any of Dale's videos until reading this convo. Upshot - Dale got another view of this video. Downside - as an engineer, I can say that Dale got WAY out over his skis, and really really didn't understand what he was testing or feeling. His chart was not just an estimation; it was fundamentally wrong. His estimate of the crossover points of effort vs braking power is multiples to the right of the reality. Which meant every conclusion he drew after that and stated as fact was completely, dangerously incorrect.
He put the .7kg (7N) of force required to breakaway the Maven's at about 1/3 of the way to max force. The grip strength of an average male is about 40kg (400N) - pro riders probably more like 50-60kg. Single finger grip strength should be around 10kg or 100N. Even if max braking is achieved at half of that, it means the Maven breakaway starts at about the 15% mark, and crossovers would happen at about the 20% mark, not 50% as he presumed; and I'd put money on it actually measuring out to sub-10%. Put another way - even for the Mavens, dead stroke force is a tiny fraction of even light braking force.
The only way his Mavens would be more fatiguing in real world use is if he rides with his brake levers always slightly compressed, but not engaging pads or barely dragging. This IS in fact very fatiguing. Holding a small weight continuously WILL pump you out. But it is also a highly unusual style, and arguably terrible technique. Had he stated these brakes are bad for habitual brake draggers, he'd be onto something. But he jumped to all kinds of conclusions that were just flat wrong. And he did his audience a huge disservice to present things he just doesn't understand as expertly supported fact.
edit - found the Enduro article (in the latest test they DO control for pad) and lo-and-behold, their estimate for hard braking under the average rider is... wait for it... 40N. Not far off from my 50N for max braking force.
https://enduro-mtb.com/en/best-mtb-disc-brake-can-buy/#toc_6
Reply
BarryW
3 weeks, 6 days ago
Well so you kind of contradict yourself here.
You say low percentage of total effort for the dead band, but then say a huge 'if'. My assumption is Dale rides a lot like I do where I am all the way through the dead band, but not actually braking. It isn't wrong so long as you aren't actually dragging your pads...
So maybe it isn't 'wrong' technique, just different than you do. And even you admit it can be highly fatiguing. That was his point.
I'm also a fan of very low effort before the pds touch. I run my levers very close to my bar and hold them NOT braking but all the dead stroke already taken up. Why would you claim this to be a 'highly unusual style'?
Reply
ohio
3 weeks, 6 days ago
Not a contradiction at all. It IS in fact a tiny fraction of total braking force. Dale is very very wrong - and by putting his wrongness in a chart he misled his audience and himself on a whole host of conclusions. There is one scenario where he would be correct, which he failed to (self) identify. Because of his terrible pseudo engineering he mis-applied that scenario to all beginners and intermediates, and for the wrong reasons.
You may fall into that scenario, but don’t fall into the anecdata trap.
rusm
3 weeks, 6 days ago
I can confirm they reward good braking technique and punish bad breaking techniques.... Also best brakes I've ever had, can't wait to get the MTX Golds on there!
Reply
Anthony Schroeder
3 weeks, 6 days ago
@Cam and @Ohio here... I literally mentioned that the high braking force was great by his view, so that is addressing the marketing. He says that.
The fundamental disagreement is whether or not actual people actually either preload brakes or drag them relatively lightly during use. Dale thinks many people do. Dale even says he does that (and chastises himself for it in the video). How this is missed watching the video, I don't know. He explicitly says he is doing that. He says it may not be right, but it is a fact of life for many people.
I happen to agree, many people do actually do that. It is proper technique? No, it isn't.
He goes into huge detail into an assertion that most people most of the time are lightly using their brakes. And thus the deadload mattering in this case.
I would suggest that his commentary exactly matches what you are saying it should be, even if you think the cross-over point is much lower in the margin. I also think you are vastly overestimating grip strength per finger for prolonged contact. That 40kg is for peak, as in low/1 rep death grips for short durations. I doubt many people could do above 25-50% that for dozens of reps. Now repeat your knockdowns, and brakeaway is no longer nearly as low, but even if as you claimed that it occurs more like 20%, that still is in the range where his comments that he thinks most people spend most of the time at that tiny low range.
---
Trying to combine comments about the same stuff.
---
I just don't get your take, Cam. He explicitly says what he measured is a different metric. He explicitly agrees that the marketing is probably 'technically correct', but claims that the top level marking from SRAM that in general these are 'way less fatiguing' was misleading *because* of his experiences with deadstroke. You can disagree with him, but accusing him of anything from that is insane. He tells us what metric he is focused on, and *why*.
What you are saying is that if Apple claimed 'the fastest iphone ever' is not misleading as long as the fine print 'faster than other options in this one specific use case' is true, even if purported real world use case, it isn't faster than previous versions, and it may even be slower. That is IMO the literal meaning of 'misleading'. Misleading comments are those that may or may not correct, but lead people to form conclusions that are not accurate.
Set aside for a second your disbelief that deadstroke matters at all. If you allow yourself to imagine it did matter, you might be disheartened to find the brakes are fatiguing much more than expected.
This is the top level marketing, as you know "The power of more endurance and less fatigue, letting you leverage subtlety and consistency to open the aperture of your abilities. Maven. New powers to go ahead." Right before the comment about 32% for strokes, they say that 'more important than overall power is usable power'. That certainly seems to acknowledge that there is importance in the feel at lower braking forces. Well a test batch that these brakes are great at high load, but more fatiguing at low load, that runs counter to the entire statement. 'Usable' power is requiring relatively more effort than 'overall' power. It is, misleading, indeed.
Feel free to note that no one should buy mavens if they are not going to use them hard. That is valid, that is a great conclusion to put in a video or article. Feel free to claim, as another commenter here did, that it rewards good braking technique, and punishes bad technique. Also completely valid.
If I lay out a methodology, explain that methodology, explain why I disagree with the methodology someone else proposes, and use my own methodology to make an assertion about some product... that is not remotely misleading. You may think my method is stupid. You may suggest that your methodology is better, but all the detail is out there for everyone to see. Nothing has been hidden away.
Reply
ohio
3 weeks, 6 days ago
He mentioned his dragging but then forgot about is as he applied his experience to literally all beginners and intermediates.
Had he said “this brake is bad for draggers” I’d have little objection. Maybe he should have played with the bite point adjustment, but given how bad his mechanical intuition is, I don’t think he would know the connection between the two, and SRAM doesn’t include that in their materials. But that’s not what he concluded. What he concluded was way WAY wrong, and a disservice to lots of (again *arguably* most) beginners and intermediates who will benefit from stronger brakes.
PS You’re reply confuses “crossover” - the point at which lever force is producing equal braking force - with breakaway - the point at which the lever begins to move.
PPS - also very notable that the deadband holding force for the maven will be lower than the breakaway force as a combined function of stiction and the cam/swinglink.
Anthony Schroeder
3 weeks, 6 days ago
You and I have very different perspectives on 15 (or 20) for breakaway vs crossover percent being a 'tiny fraction'. Especially considering that I don't think it actually is that amount, as mentioned in my comment.
Neither PS nor PPS is relevant to my commentary. I did conflate the 2 in my quickness to respond using your terminology, but it isn't relevant in my point at all.
Now, fundamentally, your conclusion and judgement on that conclusion is certainly yours. On my own end, Maven's are idiotic brakes for beginners or intermediates, simply because they are too expensive for those people's own good, and starting with less performant brakes can actually help teach proper technique out of necessity (underbiking and all).
Now, with that being said, you might well argue that anyone using brakes hard enough to make Maven's worthwhile, should also know how to properly use them, and so the dragging commentary is not sufficiently relevant.
---
Side Note:
I would love to see someone actual quantitatively test brakes, correlating level force through travel with their dissipation power at various (lets say 3 different) wheel rpm. Can even place some resistance on the roller base for prolonged test at different power levels. Add a fan if you really want for linear airflow cooling.
Would make a wonderful 200mm (or 180, IDC) shootout comparison. Get some real numbers in this all, instead of SRAM giving one datapoint at an unknown power level with unknown comparable setups on those levers etc.
Stuff like this obviously isn't seen in the bike review space, but it is not actually that technically challenging to implement, would be incredibly interesting.
ohio
3 weeks, 6 days ago
German mags have done relatively scientific brake testing (if I remember correctly it was enduro and they failed to use a control pad). There is also a spreadsheet floating by around that calcs the mechanical*hydraulic leverage of many of the available brake systems - almost certainly the same calc that SRAM uses for their 32% figure - and a very reasonable approximation of real work braking power. Which of course is not the only relevant measure of performance, feel, or fit.
It’s a weird hill to die on to defend a professional reviewer who was demonstrably wrong and gave objectively incorrect advice just because if you squint at his review and catch some of the subtleties he could be correct for a different audience than the one he claims, but… you do you. Feels like this dead horse is pretty tender at this point.
But to walk a fresh horse into the pasture ;)… maven bronze are inline with lots of brakes cost wise, and under biking is a terrible strategy for beginners - just because it is how us old timers learned. No worse idea than putting a beginner on a stiff twitchy XC bike with limited traction when the key to their initial learning curve is enough confidence to carry speed and momentum. And it is a much shorter curve to learn braking sensitivity than it is to build forearm endurance. Wouldn’t be my first choice, but telling a beginner to hang onto Mavens that came on their bike, makes a shit-ton more sense than saying Mavens are universally bad for intermediate riders.
Timer
3 weeks, 6 days ago
Wait, so your argument rests on the assertion that someone who is very obviously better at mountainbiking than 90+% of total riders is using “terrible” technique.
That contradicts the very definition of good or bad. If it works at that level of riding, it is good. There may be different techniques which also work at that level. But there is absolutely no basis for claiming that one of them is correct and the other is not.
Reply
ohio
3 weeks, 3 days ago
That's why I said "arguably." What is inarguable is that he made a several big incorrect assertions, extrapolated them to incorrect conclusions under the guise of math, and misapplied his advice to the wrong audiences. Doesn't matter how good of a rider he is; he's a bad reviewer and a terrible engineer.
Bogdan M
3 weeks, 6 days ago
Dale stated he’s not a SRAM fan has also had hand pump with the Codes. Given his light weight not sure it’s worth it for him to run Mavens. He seems to be a big shimano fan boy, I was too tillI cracked my front and rear 4 piston XTR pistons which meant I needed to buy a hole new brake because Shimano doesn’t sell parts. He also said something about SRAM contacting him to have a look if there’s an issues it’s his brakes but somehow there was no follow-up video or post about that.
Now people can certainly have preferences … if you love light lever feel then great. There’s many brakes that have it. Ultimately the light lever feel comes from having a higher ratio in the master cylinder (like a granny gear) but that ultimately comes at a price of limiting the max power, unless you have a super long stroke or some kind of aggressive servo wave thing.
Reply
BarryW
3 weeks, 6 days ago
Super light lever feel doesn't have anything do to with what you just claimed.
You're talking about how much effort you have to apply to get the lever to move, not necessarily move the brake piston. Dale was very focused on the dead band effort, which IS higher than a lot of brakes.
It's been noted here several times by people that own them.
Reply
Cam McRae
3 weeks, 6 days ago
He was focussed on the dead band but he was using that information, incorrectly, to counter SRAM's marketing materials which were talking about how much less effort it took at the lever to generate braking force with Mavens compared to Code. He said SRAMs marketing was inaccurate but he was comparing the wrong metrics. SRAM's copy didn't say anything about dead stroke effort at all.
Reply
Bogdan M
3 weeks, 6 days ago
Ah perhaps I'm ignorant here ... but the dead stroke is the movement in the lever before the pads engage the disk. So the pads ARE moving ... but they aren't doing anything. It's just a leverage ... you pull on the lever ... the oil get's pushed they get to the pistons and they move eventually touching the disks... so if you have a small master cylinder you move less oil which is easier to move but takes longer (travel) to make contact and also to achieve higher pressure at the disk. (assuming you're not using some kind of variable ratio linkage). If you move more oil it's more work (stiffer) but you can achive higher pressures incrementally.
Reply
ohio
3 weeks, 6 days ago
Actually the same leverage that gives you high braking pressures/force would give you a light lever feel. High deadband lever force could be a function of stiff or sticky master cylinder seals, return spring weight, cam shape (if the lever has one), and brake fluid viscosity. Aside from the cam, I’m not sure which is the case with the Maven. Even the caliper square seals don’t come into play until the brake is engaged.
It’s worth noting that Hayes put a ton of effort into lever return force or headband feel, and so used large fluid passages and DOT fluid. Counterpoint, those Intend brakes with extraordinarily light feel use 2.5wt mineral oil.
Reply
Jotegir
3 weeks, 6 days ago
>the best brakes SRAM has made and they're still terrible
Shimano fanboys rejoice!
Reply
Bogdan M
3 weeks, 6 days ago
Figured I’d throw my 2 cents in here as well. I had some back and fourth messages with Dale via the YouTube comment method. I picked up the Expert kit as it’s a pretty insane deal … basically 4 free rotors, and extra set of pads and a high end bleed kit for the same price. The VanHalen color way is certainly a take it or leave kinda thing. I like it. I’ve used a ton of brakes in the past (saints, Hope Ti6s, Formula The one, Shimano XTR 4 piston (where I cracked both front and rear pistons), code RSC and now Mavens).
I experience similar issues as you did Cam initially .. those were largely resolved by the massage thing … but I still had the occasion bite wander, esp in the rear. Though compared to other wandering points this one bites early not late so it’s certainly less scary. After a couple of months of use I think they have finally broken in and they are just flawless.
I think you’re right about the thing Dale made a fuss over. SRAM clearly talks about the “max effort” force and it’s certainly true. For me I tried a Code RSC in the rear and a Maven up front just to see if I can feel the “excessive” effort required in the dead stroke and honestly using it I couldn’t tell. I actually tried the bottle thing … and it was true the break away force was higher … but feeling it at my finger was not discernible …. I would wager that the dead stroke force is maybe 5% of the max force I need to exert to come to a stop. Now Dale is 130-135 lbs I believe (sub 140 for sure from his comments) so perhaps the percentage of the dead force to max effort is higher due to his weight. Dunno … his review certainly doesn’t line up at all with that I’m feelin and def lines up very much with your findings. Now I’m an ultra Clydesdale here … 275 lbs + and I have never had a pair of brakes which have stopped with so fast and with so little effort … EVER! So perhaps. For me when I read brake reviews I look for reviewers over 200 lbs or at least around the 200 mark. Till I had the mavens I never really understood what it was like to have almost too much braking power.
Btw … I’m also trying the MTX Gold pads now … so jar just in the rear as my front is not worn out yet and really happy. I ran the Gold MTX on my Code RSC and on the Codes they were a huge improvement for me.
Reply
Lynx .
3 weeks, 6 days ago
@Bogdan, I think that you're right, those complaining about the Mavens on first launch were smaller riders, easily <150lbs, so maybe not the brake someone like that needs, especially if their technique is to constantly hold the lever past the dead stroke - I cannot imagine riding like that, my hands would lock up and cramp as well and maybe that's why I used to suffer arm pump and now don't, because I switch my technique.
Reply
Bogdan M
3 weeks, 6 days ago
I'm a bit of a brake dragger ... on the rear. Front I'm more on off. I managed to do okay with the Code RSC + MTX Gold Pads. But when I did a Shuttle day in Revelstoke (Martha Creek DH) I melted my rear pads :-) ... when I got the Mavens it was a revelation. All of a sudden I could shut my speed down in places I never thought I could. LIke you watch those Remi Mettalier/barrelli vids where they say on this 5 foot flat spot you scrub speed ... and before I was like ...yeah sure. But now it's doable.
Reply
Lynx .
3 weeks, 6 days ago
Hahaha, sounds like when I got my first set of XTs about 15 years ago, was coming from using Juicy7s and then Strokers, was a revelation being able to just come to a full stop on the crest of a short, steep roll to evaluate, pick your line, then let go and roll, no death gripping to stop, wouldn't like to know what these are like going by all the reports for my light <190lbs kitted to ride.
Reply
Lynx .
3 weeks, 6 days ago
So, reading ALL the comments here, it seems that these new mineral oil based brakes use stiffer seals, which take some time to break in, not ideal, but it happens in lots of other disciplines AND they offer insane power.
My problem with Dale's and loads of others YT videos and titles is that they're 100% click bait, as besides the lever break away force, what he was saying contradicted his title immensely.
Oh and just so as to be clear, I AM a Shimano fanboi, I dunno what they call it, but definitely NOT a SRAM fanboi, price to performance you can't beat Shimano, IMHO, they can't be beat, especially on the lower end, brakes or drivetrain.
Reply
Morgan Heater
3 weeks, 6 days ago
Considering your geographical proximity, and the amount of annoying bickering the Dale call-out has caused, it seems like it would be worth a follow up with Dale. He seems like a pretty cool dude, and I bet would be willing to meet up and try your Maven set-up and see if he has a similar experience to before, and then document that with a video.
Reply
Lynx .
3 weeks, 6 days ago
Have to say, this would be a cool thing to do, IMHO. I'm guessing that it's just overall stiffer seals throughout the brakes and them needing "bed in" time, bit annoying, but better than soft seals that allow air ingress IMHO and not something someone who "drags" their brakes would appreciate and honestly, brakes aren't designed to be dragged and NO you cannot tell if you're slightly dragging them when you're trying to "take up the freeplay" in the stroke, sorry, not going DH.
Reply
FlipSide
4 weeks ago
Nice review!
I personally find the Maven are certainly the best upgrade I've done to one of my bikes in the past 10 years or so. It essentially revived my Enduro bike (from 2018). The feel is great, bleeding is easy and the braking power they offer is phenomenal, while never being "too much". They give me a level of control on the bike I never really experienced before. I too experience slight bite point wandering, but I find it more noticeable in the garage than on the trail, where it really never has been an issue. I'd prefer if there was absolutely no bite point wandering, but I find this acceptable, given how good the brakes are overall.
Great to see the record being set straight about these. It seems to me the initial reviews were a bit too much on the negative side, considering how awesome they have been for me.
About the Youtuber shaking his hands from the arm pump with the Maven. I sometimes think about this video when I ride, wondering if he had a bad set or a bad day...or if there was a deliberate intent at creating controversy and generate clicks. He is a very good rider, his content is otherwise excellent and he seems like a totally trustworty guy... What happened there is a bit of a mystery to me.
Reply
Cam McRae
4 weeks ago
I’ve seen that sort of thing first hand, when a journalist sees their stock rise when they form a contrarian opinion that appears to stick it to BIG BIKE, while other journalists are portrayed (sometimes accurately) as corporate shills. There are quite a few comments like that under Dale’s video. “I’m a new subscriber because you are telling the truth!” Quite ironic. It’s also interesting that there are many recent comments by riders like yourself who have actually ridden these brakes and discovered that they work very well for them, and find Dale’s conclusions (and hand shaking) entirely baffling
Obviously there are media outlets that are influenced by the bottom line and tend to put out reviews that echo press releases for manufacturers, and that makes me throw up in my mouth a little every time I see it, but misrepresenting a product because it gains attention (whether this was intentional or not is not something I am not speculating about because our own biases - even mine - are often impossible for us to notice) is just as dishonest as being a corporate shill - and has similar upside for outlets that get paid per click like those on social media. Our bottom line is much less tied to clicks on individual articles, for which I am thankful.
I get it though. Making your way in this rapidly evolving media landscape is tough sledding, even when you’ve been at it for 24 years like we have. I’m impressed by those like Dale who bust their asses to make it on their own, but even he has sponsors. SRAM doesn’t happen to be one of them though.
Reply
Anthony Schroeder
4 weeks ago
Your biases are showing here by even suggesting it is for clicks. His extremely positive brake review right before the mavens got almost exactly the same views, and like it or not, it isn't as if he did no investigating to confirm that his particular experiences were real. His brakes could be defective, but they certainly are actually acting stiffer than other competitors. It is not disingenous to post ones actual experiences with an actual product. If it is demonstrated that the devices were intentionally damaged in some way to bring about that result sure. Otherwise, simply noting the other review is not a conclusion you agree with is good enough.
Reply
Jerry Willows
4 weeks ago
sensational titles are for clicks... being a YouTuber, number one thing is to get views (and like and subscribe!). He could have chatted with SRAM about the brakes as other reviewers were certainly not having the same issue and he didn't it bleed it properly!
Reply
Anthony Schroeder
4 weeks ago
As someone who also follows general tech youtube and reviews... it is honestly baffling that people are calling a title that accurately summarizes his personal feelings about the product sensational. You can disagree with the perspective. You can suggest that he is wrong about it being relevant, but if the video is largely focused on an aspect of the product that he didn't like, and that in his view detracted from an otherwise quite good product... disappointment is just the literal reaction. That is automatically not clickbait or sensationalism.
I think our assessments of what is sufficiently clickbait and what is acceptable are extremely different. All of media exists to sell itself, have we forgotten tabloids exist and have existed for centuries? That written media has also focused on getting circulation and engagement?
You are right in that he could spend more time working with a manufacturer to see if his sample is defective. Absolutely true. That is a valid critique. No reviewer is or should be seen as authoritative.
Reply
Timer
3 weeks, 6 days ago
No, the entire idea that someone who bought a product of the shelf should not share his experience with it before having spoken to the company behind it is absolutely absurd. It shows once again that there is far too much shoulder rubbing between bike media and industry.
Reply
Cooper Quinn
3 weeks, 6 days ago
I don't think Dale purchased those brakes - I believe they were loaned to him by a local shop.
And, had he spoken to SRAM or a shop, there may have been some determination on whether or not there was an issue with that pair of brakes, or if it was indicative of Mavens as a whole. I'm not sure that's shoulder rubbing more than it is good due diligence.
WheelNut
3 weeks, 6 days ago
Indeed, I agree. Too add to your point: You wouldn't see a restaurant review being criticized because the reviewer didn't consult with the chef about their intent rather than what they actually produced. If you're products are defective then they will get a bad reputation. The solution to that is to improve QA/QC. Its not the consumer's responsibility to fix poor production quality.
Tjaard Breeuwer
3 weeks, 5 days ago
Regarding “click bait “ titles, unfortunately , that’s how it works. Several YouTube creators I follow have come out and said exactly that.
If they add a click bait title, they get more views.
So, these days, I try to give YouTube videos a ‘free pass’ on their tittles, as long as the content itself is balanced and well done.
Reply
Cr4w
4 weeks ago
Wait. Tough sledding? I'm saying it this way from now on.
Reply
Jerry Willows
4 weeks ago
That video irks me to no end. He didn't bleed it properly and over the top title. I suggested in the comments to take it to SRAM to have them looked at as there is no way you are getting arm pump like that with Mavens.
Reply
Anthony Schroeder
4 weeks ago
Improper bleeding would reduce deadstroke weight, not increase it. Demonstrated issue was abnormally high force before lever arm would actuate whatsoever.
Lever arm could be in wrong spot, or somehow sticky/broken certainly. And he noted himself that heavier riders or ones that rode 'more properly' (fewer harder braking points) probably wouldn't see as much of an issue.
Honestly, with how much BS call out this article was, I'd love to see it sent to them and have them confirm that his particular sample was or wasn't running properly. It wasn't like he said they were bad brakes. He said they were disappointments that didn't fit his wants/needs. Which given how they acted for him... I can't blame.
Reply
Lynx .
3 weeks, 6 days ago
Jerry, you know what irks me even more, is when "professionals" install new brakes and instead of doing the proper bedding in procedure, take it straight to a DH and expect them to perform properly. Bicycle disc brakes are like race car brakes, they don't bed in on their own, you have to perform the bed in procedure properly if you want proper performance, fail to do so and most likely on that first DH you'll glaze the pads and overheat the rotors because the pads aren't working as they should so you're on the brakes harder trying to stop, not letting the rotors get a chance to cool and o, now they're toast as well.
Reply
Andeh
4 weeks ago
I just upgraded to a set of Mavens last week (also from Dominions), and agree that it's one of the best upgrades I've put on my bikes in the last few years. I was hesitant to get them when they first came out because of a few extremely negative reviews at launch complaining about stiff levers.
I can say that I diligently followed the SRAM bleed & massage procedure, and have zero issues with wandering bite point or stiff levers. There's a little bit more free stroke resistance but it takes less force to achieve higher stopping power when you do make contact. I have not had arm pump return switching from Hayes (with sintered pads & 203 Galfer Shark rotors) to Mavens (organic pads & same rotors). I wiped the rotors down with isopropyl alcohol to clean off the old pad compound but that was it. I find I'm riding faster and smoother because I can brake later and for a shorter duration.
One good tip I read (which influenced my choice to buy them) came from Blister Gear review: running the contact adjust all the way in dramatically reduces the force needed to get through the free stroke. That adjuster is actually changing the starting position of the swing link cam - all the way in gives higher leverage (requires less force) but needs the lever to move further. However, even with the contact adjust all the way in, I'm able to run my levers about 5mm closer to the bars (my preference is as close as possible) than I was with A4s, with the contact point at about the same distance from the bars. In other words, the free stroke is still shorter than the A4s, even with contact adjust all the way in.
Reply
Anthony Schroeder
4 weeks ago
So you agree they are great, but you did note that even with contact adjustment all the way in, the deadstroke is heavier than what you came with. Obviously when in use, it is preforming well, but that also seems to validate not disprove what the review update was saying was fake/improper.
I suppose end of the day, as long as everyone knows the way to set it up to their own preferences, it isn't a big deal.
Reply
Andeh
4 weeks ago
Having a stiffer freestroke than A4s isn't saying much - AFAIK they've (A4s) got the the lightest of any brake on the market. But the A4 free stroke is very long, and which also changes significantly as pads wear down - that annoyed me to no end. I had work arounds to deal with it, but never had to do that with Shimano/SRAM/Magura brakes I owned prior.
I actually defended Dale's review at first, giving him the benefit of the doubt that he'd have followed the bleed & setup procedure. Having ridden them now myself, my opinion is that was not the case.
Reply
Sam James
4 weeks ago
From the moment Dale said "I'm going to run them with Shimano rotors to make it a fair test" I was unconvinced. I'm fairly certain SRAM would have provided the correct rotors for him to use, and while they should work just fine with Shimano rotors, why not give them the best possible chance by using them with the components they were designed for use with? Nothing against Dale, but It seems like he was intent on giving them a poor review from the get-go, or at least in my eyes, he did the very opposite of giving them a fair test.
Reply
BarryW
4 weeks ago
Running Shimano rotors has literally nothing to do with Dale's complaints about the lever effort.
He also didn't complain about overall power so how can you think this was an issue?
WolfTwenty1
3 weeks, 4 days ago
You like the Galfer? How do they compare with the hs2?
Reply
Andeh
3 weeks, 4 days ago
The Sharks have more bite than the HS2, were straighter out of the box, and stay straighter over time. I'm only doing tiny corrections to them every few months instead of every couple weeks. I just got a pair of Waves so I have the option of dialing back the bite a little bit if needed (I noticed the Frameworks team likes Wave front, Shark rear).
Reply
WolfTwenty1
3 weeks, 1 day ago
Interesting. I’ve been looking for less bite honestly. Did you see vali and Loris running centerline rotors..?
My issue is on my DH bike the 40 has a 203 post mount and I don’t want to run a 220 rotors with the maven in the front anymore so considering the Galfers.
Reply
Tim Hire
3 weeks, 5 days ago
New Maven user coming from Magura MT5's and TRP DHR Evo's. I didn't really think they were all that hard to set up. The massage was straight forward to do while cutting the lines and bleeding. I was pretty much having to do this with the other brakes anyways to make sure the pistons were aligned. I followed the bed in procedure and so far with 180 rotors i've been really happy with them compared to the other two. Yes, if you're sitting in the garage flicking the lever, it feels stiffer. I have not felt this on trail. I have also not had any arm pump like i did with the TRP's and they are way neater to maintain compared to the Magura's. Looking forward to testing the 200mm rotors but so far as some one who is 194lbs( or 87ish kg) with hands that were injured in the past, I haven't really had a problem. I have put in work to improve grip strength over the year's and still play a bit of hockey in the winter so that seems to help as well. But, I was definitely apprehensive about them based on the media worry. So far pleasantly surprised. I'm playing around with contact point, but i love that i can keep the levers relatively close to the bar and not feel like i'm death gripping. There is a wall and it stays there.
It just goes to show how personal experiences can be. It's important to do the research and test things where you can to see if they match. Just because X or Y says something, doesn't always mean it's applicable. I love seeing all of the different perspectives and trying to see how they will apply to me. Reading between the lines is the fun part of reading/watching reviews.
Reply
Bikeryder85
4 weeks ago
Interesting about the insert...I was really excited about it, now definitely bummed about how they didn't work.
Reply
Cam McRae
4 weeks ago
They worked, and were still working when I removed them but the rear insert’s days were clearly numbered.
Reply
Jenkins5
4 weeks ago
Great review! Although not sure it's glowing enough for me to change from my Cura 4's and TRP EVO DH......Plus they're kind of heavy and pretty ugly! Haha. If these came with my new bike I wouldn't switch them out, but not sure why anyone would buy these when there are so many other great brakes out there (that don't have the more involved setup), but to each their own!
Reply
Cam McRae
4 weeks ago
My latest bleed was as easy as any I've done and the long term performance has been exceptional which leads me to believe there is some break in time for the new seals. Pure speculation but it seems like many of the initial issues some riders were having have disappeared.
Reply
Timer
3 weeks, 6 days ago
The max power/pull force ratio is higher than that of the Cura 4, or EVO DH. Some people value that above anything else.
Reply
Dave Smith
4 weeks ago
Cam - Am I understanding that you are running a mix of organic pads up front and the metal pads out back?
Coming from Magura I have been impressed by the Maven power but I feel sometimes like I'm going to go over the bars if I grab too much front brake. I love them in the steeps (esp when I am carrying the bag) but I feel that I've definitely lost some modulation and fine control. The folks over at SRAM suggested the mix to see if I got a lighter feel from the front brake.
Reply
Jerry Willows
4 weeks ago
a couple of tips:
1. use the contact adjust all the way on the - on the lever
2. some pros have gone to Centerline rotors (rumor is because of the bite with the HS2)
3. ride them long enough and you just get used to it
Organics as you mentioned probably have less bite?
Reply
Cam McRae
4 weeks ago
I am running a mix but I wasn't having an issue controlling power with a 200 up front. My fronts may be close to done as well but I haven't checked yet. If so I'll try metal front and rear to see what that's like. At least until some MTX pads arrive.
Reply
GB
3 weeks, 6 days ago
I prefer to observe some long term reviews before formulating an opinion.
Caliper pistons need lubing and a bit of work to function properly. Just once or periodically? I could justify doing this during set up.
If you brake drag . I don't, you may experience hand fatigue. Not an issue for my braking style .
Very powerful! Which obviously reduces hand fatigue.
In my opinion. Heavy and rather ugly . Which I could ignore considering the Mavens attributes.
Reply
PHeller
3 weeks, 1 day ago
The Panzer inserts look identical to the ZTTO Inserts from AliExpress. Interestingly, ZTTO offers three styles, one for road (small triangle), one for small MTB tires (chevron like Panzer), and other "Bat Signal" style for wider MTB tires similar to Vittoria Air Liner in shape.
I wonder if this indicative of Chinese manufacturers receiving feedback from the brands whom they produce products for and tailoring their own DTC options based on that feedback? "One of our customers ordered 500 sets of this style of insert, and now they said they are going to change the shape of the insert for the next order, so that earlier shape probably isn't ideal."
Another thing I've noticed is that while you can source CushCore style inserts from Chinese retailers, it is probably the least reproduced style of insert on AliExpress. Is it more difficult to produce or more expensive? Did CushCore pull production from Chinese manufactures and switch to another country for manufacturing (one that isn't as available to global markets as AliExpress?)
I'm going to keep experimenting with inserts until tire technology catches up to Schwalbe's Radial construction, Michelin's E-Wild design, or just tougher tires designed for fast rolling. I know lots of guys who combine inserts and DH casing tires out here in the pointy deserts.
Reply
Lynx .
4 weeks ago
What's the cost for a set of the Mavens Cam? Seems like they can be quite the pain to setup, wondering how many times a year you will need to go through that sort of thing? Also curious if you have any idea of the miles and feet descended before you killed those organic pads? If you had to rate them price to perform compared to other brakes you've used, how would that go?
I remember when I got my first Shimano XTs, killed the stock organic pads in about 800 miles with no long descents, just short <1/2 mile ones, was very surprised after running metallic on all my previous brakes and them lasting years. Found out they were gone going down a short DH on the road heading home from the trails one night, heard a nasty squeal, was only 2 miles to home and that was the last DH, so didn't stop, checked them the next morning to find all the material on the front pads gone, not even 3 months I think it was.
Reply
Cam McRae
4 weeks ago
Prices? Not cheap, at the upper end in particular.
This may require some zooming in. AFAIK the expert level kit is going to be hard to find now and was only produced in limited numbers.
Lots of vertical on those brakes but comparatively fewer miles. Despite some of the big days* in Whistler.The lads lasted very well considering the number of high intensity downhills they endured I’d say. They have been on two different bikes since January
*big for the brakes but e-assisted
For price to performance I’m going for Shimano Deore 6120 four pots. For all out power and great modulation (without destroying your hands) these are the best I’ve used. The Hope E4s are pretty close but don’t seem to have quite as much mechanical advantage
Reply
Lynx .
4 weeks ago
Thanks for the honest reply Cam, yes, knew that the initial kit that they offered as the Pro or whatever was a pretty good deal if you broke it down, but then after that small run, didn't think that the $$ to performance was there. Really wish Hope would do mineral, love the look of all their stuff, the actual brand and that it's stayed pretty true to it's origins and keeps spares for years - pretty sure you can still get spares for their old brakes from back in the late 90s/early 00s.
Those Deore are exactly the brakes I was thinking would be up there as far as bang for buck and ultimate stopping power, with maybe the Magura MT5 Next maybe. If I'm not wrong, they don't have the Servo Wave feature, correct, so bit of a different lever feel, not quite as on off as the SLX> models?
Reply
Cam McRae
4 weeks ago
They are Servowave I believe but I don’t mind the action personally.
I assumed MT5s would be quite a bit more expensive but you can get a set for 370 CAD (I found 6120s for 325). Very impressive. I put a set on a bike for my son and they have been great, aside from when I left them too long between bleeds!
Reply
Lynx .
4 weeks ago
You're talking about MT5s on your sons bike or the 6120s? Guessing you meant the MT5s and yeah, they're actually a really good price most places, my only worry is the carbotech levers to be honest, actually have considered doing a Shigura setup with Shimano lever and Magura caliper.
I love my Shimano's in general, sometimes wondering bite point on some and all, but I did struggle with feathering them when we went to Colorado on their kitty litter, granite gravel, that's the only thing and we don't have much of that here, mainly just dirt or hard rock and I do like that when I apply the brakes, I can easily come to a dead stop without white knuckling.
Reply
silverbansheebike
4 weeks ago
While we're on the topic of contradicting opinions on brakes... I'd caution recommending the 6120 to anybody. Yes, 4 pistons = more power, but the amount of money I've flushed into these trying to get them to work would have netted me a set of SLX. The 6120 is resin only, and like every other resin-only i've immediately swapped to metal pads. Note that the casting is different, so of course you cannot use the finned pads, no big deal. But 2 sets of burned through pads and rotors later I've begrudgingly switched back to the resin pads. They work, if you like resin pads. I prefer my old XT 2 pistons.
Reply
Lynx .
4 weeks ago
Well, I normally only run resin pads, just prefer how they feel and that in general they run quieter and are better in the wet, needing less heat to work and sadly, we don't have any long descents here, most stuff is easily under a mile, most 1/2 mile or so.
Anyways, I guess I'll find out exactly what it's like in a couple weeks because I just ordered a M520 4 pot caliper, which looks to be the same as the one on the 6120. Plan is to just hook it up to my XT levers and see how it goes and YES I know they use different hoses, I already have a spare hose for the Deore brakes that's long enough for a rear, but will most likely be putting it on the front and definitely have a few in that length range.
Reply
Mammal
3 weeks, 6 days ago
Just checking, but when you switched your "resin only" brakes to metallic pads, you swapped your rotor to one that's compatible with metallic pads? Because the rotors are the only aspect of the brake package that are "resin only".
Reply
GB
3 weeks, 4 days ago
Yes the organic pads from Shimano work fine. The resin only rotor does not stop you . Just slows you down . Quite useless for full on down hill riding . I believe the rotors are stamped, resin only , .
Reply
Lynx .
3 weeks, 3 days ago
Yup, those resin only rotors are most definitely stamped clearly, but they do work fine for someone now starting out who isn't going break neck speeds or riding super steep stuff. If someone used them for serious DH, then they might think that they or the resin pads weren't great, but I can tell you, the resin pads are just fine on the rest of the regular rotors.
Cooper Quinn
4 weeks ago
I got a set of Maven's shortly after launch, and just replaced my first set of rear pads (fronts are almost due as well), which is a pretty fair shake. I'm running organic as well - I'll be curious to see how Cam makes out in the winter on metallic pads - we're similar weight. I'll consider metallic pads next spring, but didn't make the switch this year as I know through the wet getting Mavens up to temperature for metallics will likely be... challenging? Colder temps, lower speeds, different trails, and water cooling...
Reply
Cam McRae
4 weeks ago
I’m hoping to try some MTX shortly. Although I was impressed with most of what I experienced on the organics, their potential influence on bite point not withstanding.
Reply
BarryW
4 weeks ago
I've been on MTX pads for three years now. Very quiet and good power. They do make noise when wet, but get some heat into them and the go quiet again. In my quest to upgrade power I even went to Golds on the rear instead of sizing up to a 200.
Although now that I've been riding more park I've gone up to a 220 front and 200 rear.
It's interesting reading brake reviews. I've chosen to only upgrade pads and upsize rotors and now I've got dead reliable, never overheating inexpensive brakes with fantastic lever feel and zero pump, fade or wandering bite point. Tektro 'Orion' 4 piston brakes for reference. I've had fun trying to solve the problem differently than usual and ended up with brakes that I absolutely love.
Reply
Jerry Willows
4 weeks ago
I'm still on my original metallic pads. I got the brakes when they first came and ride a lot. Installed and bled by the fine folks at Obsession Bikes and never had any issues. So much power it's insane. Rode the metallics in wet/cold and never noticed anything different than the warm days.
Reply
Kos
3 weeks, 6 days ago
Maven articles on both Canadian mtb websites on the same day?! Something is going on here....
Reply
Lynx .
3 weeks, 6 days ago
Side note to Cam and all the other writers/contributors, I've noticed this on this site and several others as well, you have links that take you directly to the link, leaving the current article instead of having it open a new tab/window, not really great for keeping people reading, e.g. the link to Cam's initial thoughts on these took me off this page if I just clicked, had to right click and open in new tab to stop that.
Reply
Pete Roggeman
3 weeks, 6 days ago
Thanks, that's something that shouldn't be happening - we'll look into it.
Reply
Lynx .
3 weeks, 6 days ago
My pleasure, appreciate the site and work put in, so any way I can give feedback/help, I do. I'd guess that it's a lack of basic HTML knowledge and writers using WYSIWYG editors instead of writing it in HTML with the appropriate "marks" for links, photos etc., Always good to go back over the actual HTML when using a WYSIWYG editor to make sure it's included the right external links etc.,
Reply
Please log in to leave a comment.