homers neighbour copy
Editorial

Just call it a Pedal Bike FFS

Reading time

There is a large contingent in the mountain biking world that hates hearing the term acoustic used to describe their mountain bike. I can’t argue either. I wanted to dissolve my eardrums the first time I heard it. The literalists are against it as well. They are quick to point out that the term refers to music and is therefore being used erroneously. Captain Obvious would be proud. 

I’m not sure why it offended me so much at first but I think it just seemed to be trying too hard. It’s not hard to imagine it being suggested by a PR firm tasked with improving the image of electric mountain bikes. Don Draper would spin it beautifully. “You see, we have electric and acoustic! They've both been loved equally since Dylan plugged in at Monterey.”

Mountain bikers and our names are a little haphazard. We have a nicknames for all sorts of the bikes we ride and the gear we use. There is duallie, hardtail, big bike, little bike, sled, rig, dirt donkey* etc. Some names stick, and some don’t, with no predictable pattern. When the first dual suspension bikes arrived, people started calling them softtails. This is from the motorcycle world but there it’s used to describe bikes that are made to look like retro hardtails, but with a concealed shock. A soft person's hardtail. Harley trademarked “softail” in 1983 but it’s largely fallen from use in mountain biking.

*sorry, not sorry.

While softtail didn’t stick, hardtail has become the defacto term for bikes without rear suspension but with a suspension fork, as opposed to fully rigid (stiffies? steel stallions?). Before dual suspension bikes came along, we just called them mountain bikes (sound familiar?). Instead we now use the inaccurately appropriated term, duallie, for full suss bikes.

remi

My original prompt (which asked for a generic Simpsons character deciding between his two bikes) somehow spat out Rémy Métailler, complete with the ridiculously tidy garage we are all envious of.

I wonder what he calls his Amish bike?

And then there was the whole conspiracy to undermine the most mysterious designation in MTB: 650b. This name was chosen by those who first promoted the wheel size between 26” and 29”, notably Kirk Pacenti. Likely because it sounded foreign and mysterious. It comes from a French naming protocol where the number indicated the outer diameter of the tire in millimetres (650) and the letter referred to the width (b), but this had no application in mountain biking because b width road tires are narrow enough to cut you in half. And when mountain bike tires are mounted to 650b rims, the diameter of the tires is actually 700mm or larger, making them approximately equal to... 27.5”!!! 

But, why did it change from 650b to 27.5 despite the former being established? Part of this was resistance to non-freedom units and part of it was to help less-informed riders figure out WTF 650b was, so bikes could be sold more easily. Whatever the reason, there was a campaign within the bike industry to push out the term 650b and use 27.5 (pronounced twennysevenfive) and that has stuck. Poor Norco had to scrap their advertising campaign calling these tweener bikes “Killer Bs.” I’m not sure if Don Draper was involved.

Which brings us to bikes with a 29er in front and a 275 in the rear. This one is still in flux and many companies in the industry are resisting the current leader; mullet. Some companies are calling these MX bikes and others mixwheel bikes. For some reason they prefer to be associated with motorcycles than with 53 year old dudes with un-ironic hockey hair. I kind of like “business in the front, party in the back” personally but it doesn’t really matter what anyone likes; the people will decide. But I’ll bet you a Hawk Tua Coin that mullet is going to win. 

Which leads us to the current struggle to find a term to distinguish between pedal-assist bikes and those that are entirely human-powered (or meat-engined in deference to Andrew Major). Riders who have a hate-on for eMTBs/ebikes/cheater chariots sometimes say, why can’t we just call them mountain bikes? The answer is the same now as it was when dual suspension bikes came on the scene; we sometimes need to distinguish between the two. “Are you riding your recharge rover or your ______ tomorrow?”

There are a few candidates floating around, many of which have been tossed in the mix to poke the pedantic bear; acoustic bike, analog bike, manual bike and my current favourite, Amish bike. Heirloom is pretty good as well but artisanal is even more suitably annoying. I sometimes hear regular bike. Isn't that a little insulting?

The English already have a solution to this, since the term “push bike” still gets play across the pond. This is thought to have originated to distinguish bikes from motorcycles but it also may have been residue from the Draisienne (or Draisine in English), which is considered the first modern bicycle. 

This contraption was envisioned and built by the German Baron, Karl von Drais Sauerbronn, the father of the bicycle. Baron KvDS called it the Laufmaschine (German for "running machine") which has a nice ring to it but that’s where the charm ends. 

The Laufmaschine had no pedals, like a kid’s run bike, and this is likely where push bike came from. The Baron’s own name for his bike did not stick. Aside from the names derived from Drais, the public took to calling them Velocipedes and, more derisively, hobby horses or dandy horses. Fortunately for Karl, there were very few internet forums in 1818 and he was largely spared e-sarc and digital ridicule. 

2018-69er-Truss-SS-MTB+(2)

While conducting intense research for this article, I came across this magnificent monstrosity; The Ti Fabrications Bonestealer 69er.* If mullets still had 26" rear wheels we'd already have a name.

*They still make the Bonestealer but only with wheels that are the same size. You can choose between 29, 27.5 and 27.5 plus. Only riders with proper haircuts are eligible.

Making Fetch Happen (with apologies to Lacy Kemp)

While I don’t have any dogs in this race, I don’t like the terrifying uncertainty we all feel before terms are locked down. The chaos is unbearable and this serious issue goes beyond the bicycle. Do we, for example, have consensus names, in English, for the previous two decades? The “2000s?” That’s fairly vague, particularly when you consider teaching history in the year 3011. The “aughts” gets bandied about, but it’s a little embarrassing frankly. And is it the tens or the teens for the last decade? This weighs heavily upon me. 

So let’s put our heads together and come to the consensus that we should all agree with my idea. We’ll finally settle the question of how I tell you what sort of  bike Wade Simmons was seen riding on an unsanctioned trail in the LSCR yesterday. I’ve already given it away, but hear me out. 

The “never say E” crowd should like it because it further emphasizes their superiority. We pedal damnit! And it more clearly outs those of us who like riding battery broomsticks as lazy bastards, just turning the cranks enough for the motor to kick in.

I'm not saying it's perfect. The literalists* will point out that e-bikes have pedals as well, but to please them (see*) we may not stop until we arrive at Mountain Bicycles Lacking Electric Motors (or Mountainmaschine ohne Elektromotoren for the Baron).

So, for the love of Gary Fisher, can we please just call them pedal bikes?

*TBH, I belong to this group quite often

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Comments

Cydwhit
+49 ZigaK olaa Timer Blofeld justwan naride bushtrucker Kevin Bond Pete Roggeman Jimothy.benson shutter2ride Flatted-again Dogl0rd Mike Ferrentino TrailPackerII Niels van Kampenhout lkubica boomforeal araz Perry Schebel Mammal earle.b bishopsmike Abies HMBA106 HeyBaumeister Ryan Lynx . Christian Strachan Jerry Willows Dave Smith Konrad KawaBunghole DanL atwork123 Couch_Surfer Mickymikey Skooks trumpstinyhands BarryW sky101 Chad K mrbrett Kenneth Perras Velocipedestrian Zero-cool goose8 cedrico NealWood SockPuppet BeesIntheTrap HughJass Spencer Nelson Justin Lantz lazybum rolly MeestahChow DBone57

Do the AI-generated images in this article convey anything beyond what a photo shot by Deniz, or another local photographer, would communicate? It should be fairly easy to pose a rider standing quizzically between an e-bike and a normal bike?

I love reading articles like this on NSMB written by people who care about bikes. I would not visit this site if the words on it were spewed out by AI which does not care about bikes and instead only cares about making shitty people rich. Why should the images be any different?

Using visual drivel like this undercuts your impact and sells every reader and contributor to the site short.

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lazybum
+4 rolly Cam McRae lkubica Skooks

Didn't know AI was as bad at wrenches and spokes as hands.

I thought it was funny, to each their own I guess.

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psyguy
+1 Cam McRae Mark sky101

The prompt was for a generic Simpsons character. I'm guessing a cartoon character was used to highlight the silliness of the dilemma. Cartoon characters aren't the easiest thing to photograph in real life. AI images replacing human work is cause for concern, but for an article such as this it seems like an appropriate use case to me. If Cam had taken a photo of his garage then photo shopped a cartoon character into it himself, would you still be offended? Different digital tools used for the same result.

I'm neither for nor against AI as a whole. I do recognize using an appropriate tool for the task at hand.

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Cydwhit
+23 Niels van Kampenhout Abies HMBA106 taprider Timer Christian Strachan Jerry Willows justwan naride Konrad Lynx . ZigaK atwork123 Skooks UMichael sky101 Chad K mrbrett Kenneth Perras Velocipedestrian Zero-cool NealWood BeesIntheTrap Spencer Nelson Justin Lantz MeestahChow

Yep! This article would be much better served by a Microsoft Paint mockup of Homer and a couple bikes. 

Would NSMB be worth reading if the articles were AI-generated? Why should we hold the visuals to a different standard?

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Timer
+5 Konrad Lynx . ZigaK justwan naride James Heath

My main gripe with the current state of fully or mostly generated AI images is that they fall into the uncanny valley or look generic as dirt. Even the better stuff like Midjourney. Stable diffusion often looks like an attempt at doctoring an image by someone who is bad at photoshop. Gen AI has this theme of trying to look real but failing.

And that distracts quite strongly from the actual content. So in my view, gen AI is not an appropriate tool for the task at hand because the results are simply not good enough.

Copying a cartoon character into an actual photo is quite a different thing, because it is obviously symbolic. Just like a drawing of stick figures would be.

Its not just a problem with images, generated text has similar issues.

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cam@nsmb.com
+1 Merwinn

If we’d had access to your artwork Cy, that would have been my first choice. Alas my skills with pencil and paper are severely lacking and a photo would not have easily conveyed the silliness I was shooting for (but perhaps missed) with this article. 

I also thought AI was fitting considering I was talking about digital bikes. 

As it stands, everyone seems to be taking it as literally as a 19th century German Baron so I should have gone with justwan’s suggestion of puppies.

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Cydwhit
+16 TrailPackerII Abies HMBA106 Timer justwan naride DanL ZigaK BarryW mrbrett Velocipedestrian Zero-cool goose8 BeesIntheTrap Bern Spencer Nelson Justin Lantz

Cam, that's the point. Just add "Drawn the style of Cy Whitling" to the prompt.

This isn't just about this article or these images. Does NSMB have a plagiarism policy? Does NSMB have an AI policy? If not, well, it's 2025. Would NSMB's AI policy apply differently to writing than to visuals? If so, why?

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cam@nsmb.com
+4 Christian Strachan Velocipedestrian goose8 Spencer Nelson

You make good points Cy! appreciate your input.

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DaveSmith
+7 Cy Whitling DanL Cam McRae Lynx . sky101 goose8 Bern

After years of fighting Ai in my day job, I can see it in as a replacement for stock photography when no other option is available and that is when it is most effective. But in this case, I agree with you Cy - Keep it real. If Deniz doesn't have this in stock then Cam can push the shutter button as good as any other photographer. it definitely wouldn't have been as irreverent but a photo of two bikes side by side with the framing tight on the BB's would have done the job for the sake of comparison.

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Zero-cool
+8 Timer justwan naride handsomedan Cy Whitling BeesIntheTrap HughJass Bern Justin Lantz

I’ll be honest, AI art is very off putting and almost stopped me reading the article. 

How lazy is it to just type some prompts into a computer and let it do the work. It’s bad enough having to read stuff ‘written’ by AI all the time. I come to MTB websites to see and read real stuff created by real people.

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karakoram
+2 Skooks DBone57

You skipped the part that was written by a real person - the words.

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Lynx
+1 BeesIntheTrap

Think you have your answer Cam ;-)

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justwan-naride
+34 cxfahrer Chad K bushtrucker Jimothy.benson Niels van Kampenhout TrailPackerII Cy Whitling GravityAddict araz Mammal Abies HeyBaumeister Timer Christian Strachan Jerry Willows Konrad KawaBunghole DanL ZigaK atwork123 Karl Fitzpatrick trumpstinyhands BarryW sky101 Velocipedestrian Zero-cool goose8 cedrico handsomedan Skooks NealWood BeesIntheTrap HughJass Spencer Nelson Justin Lantz rolly

I've not yet read the article but logged in to say please stop using AI generated images. I know it's practical, but it really detracts from the quality of NSMB's content. When it comes to written articles this is my favourite mtb related digital publication. It's obvious there's a lot of thought behind each text. AI images just don't fit the high standard of this website, no matter how related to the topic they are. I'd rather see any generic photo of someone riding their bike. Or puppies. No one ever complains about puppies.

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SteveR
+27 rusm Shoreboy taprider Lynx . jhtopilko Christian Strachan Timer Jerry Willows Konrad Bikes Todd Hellinga atwork123 Skooks Andy Eunson Garry Ogletree araz mrbrett Velocipedestrian Ask Petersen Carlos Matutes handsomedan Curveball NealWood vunugu Peter Hansen BeesIntheTrap Ryan S Spencer Nelson flatch

Keep it simple: "bike", and "e-bike". But even as someone who is not a fan of the motorization of cycling (other than for commuting and aiding those who honestly need a boost), I find find the term "amish bike" funny. Tit for tat though, if the e-crowd wants to refer to us meat powered riders that way, they have to accept "moped".

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shoreboy
+26 4Runner1 Cy Whitling Lynx . Christian Strachan Konrad Todd Hellinga kamloops_rider ZigaK mnihiser atwork123 Cr4w flatch Garry Ogletree araz Velocipedestrian Zero-cool AndrewR Carlos Matutes handsomedan Curveball Skooks NealWood Peter Hansen BeesIntheTrap Ryan S Spencer Nelson

^^This. 'Bike' and 'E-bike' are all that are needed. All the other terms seem to be used in fun or to trigger one group or the another.

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Jamminator
+3 Skooks Jotegir BeesIntheTrap Lynx . BarryW Mtbikesince87 dhr999

They were created to trigger another group.  The term "acoustic bike" gained traction quickly among the eBike community because they want to steal the name "bike" and make all eBikes referred to as just "bikes", in a push to normalize them as the standard.

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cam@nsmb.com
-2 Jotegir Mtbikesince87 BeesIntheTrap Lynx . Ryan S BarryW

That's a great conspiracy theory.

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Jotegir
0 Cam McRae Ryan S

Cam that is exactly what I thought when I read that a little bit ago!

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cam@nsmb.com
-2 Ryan S BeesIntheTrap

At least it's hilarious.

skooks
+5 AndrewR Carlos Matutes Curveball NealWood Ryan S

This x 1000.

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Curveball
+3 Skooks Lynx . BeesIntheTrap Mike Ferrentino Ryan S

It reminds me of the historical discussion of whether to call them ATB's, MTB's, or mountain bikes. Mountain bikes was settled upon a good many decades ago and to call them anything different now seems disingenuous. I don't hate e-bikes (at least not for other people), but I think the term "mountain bikes" has been in use for so long now that we should stick with it and just call e-bikes, well, e-bikes. Or EMTB's, or EATB's. I kind of like the term "Eeebs", but that sounds like a sugary little children's candy.

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dbozman
+21 Joseph Crabtree Dogl0rd Lynx . axle TrailPackerII lkubica Shoreboy taprider jhtopilko Jerry Willows Timer Konrad KawaBunghole Couch_Surfer Skooks .glib BarryW mrbrett Velocipedestrian fartymarty Carlos Matutes Peter Hansen BeesIntheTrap HughJass Ryan S flatch thaaad 4Runner1 Zero-cool

It’s simple. Bikes. And mopeds. No need for further differentiation.

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axle
+12 Cy Whitling boomforeal Shoreboy jhtopilko Lynx . Konrad BarryW fartymarty Carlos Matutes Skooks Joseph Crabtree Peter Hansen BeesIntheTrap PowellRiviera Ryan S flatch 4Runner1 Zero-cool

Exactly this, motorbike would also be acceptable.

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.glib
+3 Lynx . BarryW Carlos Matutes Joseph Crabtree Peter Hansen BeesIntheTrap flatch 4Runner1 Zero-cool

Took the words out of my mouth. If it has two wheels and a motor, it's a motorcycle or moped. A bike has two wheels and no motor.

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4Runner1
+3 Cam McRae Mark Zero-cool HughJass Lynx .

You’ve never heard a motorcycle referred to as a bike?

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Masacrejoe
+15 Lynx . Jotegir Dogl0rd Mike Ferrentino Cam McRae Mammal Shoreboy Timer atwork123 Skooks Velocipedestrian Carlos Matutes Curveball vunugu BeesIntheTrap

Just call one bike a Mountainbike and the other an Electric Mountainbike.

(It would actually be: Bergmachine ohne Elektromotoren for the Baron) 

Fun fact: Norvegians don't readily adopt foreign terms, so in Norway a Mountainbike is called: Terrengsykkel - (Terrainbike)

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Bondseye
+4 ackshunW Cam McRae jhtopilko PowellRiviera

I like Terrain bike, and we can call e bikes Loam Drones.

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alexdi
+15 Lynx . Cy Whitling kamloops_rider Skooks Bikeryder85 BarryW dbozman mrbrett Velocipedestrian Carlos Matutes Curveball Peter Hansen BeesIntheTrap Ryan S Hardlylikely

I detest “acoustic” and any other qualifier because we don’t define the OG by the upstart. We’ve had bicycles for 150 years. I’m passionate, even reverential, for the tinkerers and engineers that forged their evolution, and for the fanatical drive of the riders finding the limits of human power that’s led to some of the greatest competitive moments in history.

Ebikes have nothing to do with any of this. They’re great fun and make the sport more accessible to the wealthy and lazy (or disabled), but bicycles are defined by the use of pedals for propulsion, not by an aesthetic or common parts. Appending that word is redundant. It’s also insulting, as if you introduced a scull with a trolling motor and demanded that all the others were called “oar sculls.”

A bicycle is a bicycle. The heavy, powered mopeds in drag that some of us choose to ride are, for convenience, ebikes. We don’t need to further differentiate actual bicycles.

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pete@nsmb.com
+14 kamloops_rider Lynx . Skooks Velocipedestrian Zero-cool Timer justwan naride Carlos Matutes handsomedan Curveball vunugu BeesIntheTrap Ryan S Hardlylikely

I agree. (mountain) bikes were here first, so they get to keep 'bike'. e-bike is an easy differentiator. Other lame terms like acoustic will go away if industry and media stop using it.

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cam@nsmb.com
+2 Bikeryder85 Mike Riemer

“Which bike are you riding?”

“I’m riding my bike.” 

“Who’s on first?”

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Lynx
+4 Velocipedestrian Curveball Skooks BeesIntheTrap Hardlylikely dhr999

That's the big thing Pete, to get the industry to stop using the BS terms, but they won't because the manufacturers like it as they're still trying to make people believe that they're the same thing, when clearly they're not, just like the BS with 650B and being in the middle between 26" and 29".

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skooks
+5 NealWood Curveball Lynx . BeesIntheTrap BarryW Hardlylikely 4Runner1

Agreed. It seems to me that e-bike manufacturers would like to use terminology that makes them sound the same as bikes, when clearly they are something very different.

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shenzhe
+1 Cam McRae 4Runner1 bikedrd BarryW mrbrett

I take issue with the claim "we don't define the OG by the upstart". Often we simply grow the classification. It's not that you're riding an e-bike and a non-e-bike, you're riding a bike in either case, but some people care deeply about how much of the power is produced from mechanical efficiency and how much is produced by electricity.

Also, we often change names of things over time. Modern bikes used to be safety bicycles(or safeties), as a class of bike distinct from the penny farthing. Modern road bikes predate modern mountain bikes, so a similar argument would suggest that you should be sure to never claim you're going for a bike ride, only for a mountain bike ride, otherwise you're basically lying.

To the distinction between acoustic guitars and electric guitars, no one bats an eye at calling one an acoustic guitar, but if we shouldn't define the OG by the upstart you either play guitar or you play electric guitar. No need for that useless acoustic modifier.

Personally, I think biking is biking, and the distinction between e-bike or non-e-bike is only necessary in certain instances. Race? Better define what's allowable. Group ride? Maybe your group cares maybe it doesn't. Looking to score points by telling someone you rode to the top of something, or did some impressive distance? Probably should define your equipment a little. Telling your significant other that you're off for a bike ride with a buddy? You're riding a bike.

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cam@nsmb.com
+2 shenzhe 4Runner1

I agree with you shenzhe. We did this in terms of duallies and hardtails. The OG got a new name. And classical guitars pre-date acoustic guitars, making them the OGs. But before there were acoustic guitars (or other classifications) there were only guitars. That's the thing about language, it can't be easily caged, although the Académie Française, the pinnacle of pedantry, does their damnedest. 

It's surprising how many situations arise where identifying whether you are riding an eMTB or a pedal bike (for example) come up if you are a bike tester or if you are someone who owns both. What bike are you riding today? What bike did you ride on Seymour yesterday? Which bike is broken? Or if you are writing an article that refers to both bikes. 

If you are talking to someone who knows your bikes you can just use the model name, or the brand.

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Trogdor
0

This comment has been removed.

Curveball
0

I still like the differentiator of "mountain" before bike to separate them from road bikes.

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Flatted-again
+11 Cy Whitling Abies HeyBaumeister Konrad DanL BarryW sky101 Zero-cool justwan naride BeesIntheTrap HughJass

My thoughts:

“Huh, AI drivel, guess I’ll take a pass on that article”

“Hmm, 10 comments, let’s take a look at those.”

I guess the AI slop drove engagement, but maybe not the way it was hoped. It does make me wonder whether the writers will start engaging more with ai generated words to meet deadlines-the saddest end to great writing.

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cam@nsmb.com
+14 araz Konrad Flatted-again sky101 mrbrett Velocipedestrian goose8 Carlos Matutes Curveball Skooks NealWood pedalhound HughJass justwan naride

There will be no AI generated text here, and now that I've been schooled by Cy, we'll keep the AI generated images to a minimum as well. Except maybe for puppies.

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Jotegir
+10 Mike Ferrentino GravityAddict Mammal Cy Whitling Cam McRae jhtopilko Velocipedestrian Carlos Matutes pedalhound vunugu

If anything, articles like this (and the associated comments) do nothing but reinforce the continued use of terms for mountain bikes that send the folks who, whenever an NSMB publishes an eeb associated article, spend a significant portion of their day getting thrown into a tailspin of limp, impotent rage... into a tailspin. Are acoustic, amish, or artisanal good descriptors for a bike? Well no. Is it funny how bent out of shape some of you get? Extremely. Why does the nomenclature matter quite this much? I suspect Cam wrote this precisely because a good portion of the readership, or at least the engaged readership does get bent out of shape on this topic (although as an aside, I suspect more will be disgruntled with the use of AI imagery).

Anyway I'm going to ride my good old fashioned whole-grain, grass fed, farm-to-table, organic, hormone-free, free-range natural bicycle to work. I'll be back to collect your downvotes later.

Edit: alas my downvote tree has gone barren

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cam@nsmb.com
0 Jotegir BeesIntheTrap

Thanks Jotegir!

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taprider
-1 Ryan S

you need to be a boomer to understand acoustic

;-)

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skooks
+7 Mark Zero-cool Curveball NealWood SockPuppet BeesIntheTrap Ryan S

I am a boomer, I understand what 'acoustic' means, but 'acoustic bike' makes no sense.

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taprider
+2 Andy Eunson XXX_er

The context is Bob Dylan, which I wouldn't figure a Gen Z would get

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pete@nsmb.com
+1 Jotegir

If it's free range, I hope it's also restricted to sanctioned trails!

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earleb
+9 Shoreboy Lynx . Jerry Willows Todd Hellinga Skooks BarryW Velocipedestrian fartymarty Curveball Joseph Crabtree BeesIntheTrap 4Runner1 Cam McRae

Mountain Mopeds and Mountain bikes. Easy done. It's the ones with the motor that needed a special name. 

Own up to the fact that it's a motor in there. 

Another request for no future AI images.

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cxfahrer
+8 bushtrucker Lynx . Joseph Crabtree lkubica jhtopilko mrbrett Velocipedestrian Carlos Matutes

AI goes electric? What would "acoustic" AI be? Brains?

Bob Dylan: "I cant hear it anymore".

PS: "moped" is the term we use here.

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BryceG
+4 mrbrett Velocipedestrian Isaac L. Carlos Matutes

Bro-Ped

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Jotegir
0 Curveball Ryan S

Abacus

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boomforeal
+7 Lynx . Timer Konrad Skooks BeesIntheTrap justwan naride Ryan S old-dude-still-riding Cam McRae

How about we call it a bike?

I told the nurse in the OR I was riding home after surgery yesterday. She told me she wasn’t a “bike” person, but she was very curious to try an e-bike. The distinction seemed pretty easy and intuitive.

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skooks
+3 Curveball Ryan S Lynx .

Yup.  We do not need a new term for 'bike'. It's the motorized version that we need to agree what to call.

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cam@nsmb.com
0 4Runner1 BarryW

Bike is the term motorcyclists use for their bikes. Perhaps not the best solution.

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Curveball
+2 Skooks BeesIntheTrap

When I tell a non-rider that I'm going mountain biking, it's pretty clear to them what I'm up to.

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skooks
0

I'm pretty sure people understand what you mean when you tell them you are going out to ride your bike.  If you are going to ride your motorized bike then call it something else.

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LoamtoHome
+7 Skooks DancingWithMyself 4Runner1 Lynx . Cam McRae Carlos Matutes Curveball

I personally don't care what you call "bikes" or what you ride...  the biggest thing in the bike game is how you help out on the trails.  No trails, no bikes.

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4Runner1
+6 Andy Eunson Cam McRae shenzhe Curveball Skooks vunugu dhr999 BeesIntheTrap

And whatever one rides, don’t be a dick about it. That’s the hard part for some folks.

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Wapti
+6 Cam McRae Konrad Abies 4Runner1 sky101 Curveball

I feel attacked by the title image.

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MNKid
+6 4Runner1 Andy Eunson Lynx . Skooks BeesIntheTrap Hardlylikely

bike and ebike

and continue through the sub categories...

MTB and eMTB

road and eRoad

gravel and eGravel

cargo and eCargo

...just add an e when appropriate

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syncro
+5 Lynx . shenzhe Skooks Curveball vunugu

I like the part of the article that considers the wage range of names we use for our bikes. For example I've been partial to "full squish" in the past to describe a full suspension bike. Nowadays though I don't bother and simply assume most rides will be done on a full suspension bike unless one is going to be riding a hardtail in which they will say hardtail. I'll often use the term little bike and big bike to describe shorter travel vs larger travel or DH bikes. To me big bike and DH bike are interchangeable and little bike means a shorter travel bike like a trail or XC bike. Sometimes if the ride is more focused on a big climb I'll use the term cheater bike to describe the advantage an XC or lightweight bike has on the uphill and flats. I get the feeling that how people describe a bike depends a lot on what they plan to ride. So something like taking a trail bike down a challenging trail like Cooper and his element on 5th would easily qualify as taking out the little bike, but taking that same bike out on a more mellow ride would pretty much be expected and not needing of any proclamation. Context. Context always matters. 

Hardtail = obvious
Big bike = full suspension, lots of travel
Little bike = full suspension, not a lot of travel, could be a hardtail
Cheater bike = xc type whippet for crushing the ups

What's happened in the past 5-7 yrs or so is that a lot of the lines have been blurred as bikes have become capable of covering a wide range of terrain. For example "down country" bikes or pedalable big bikes like an Arrival 170. Even there though, I'll here people say big or little bike depending what you're riding and what the trail is. Harder trail and small bike and people will say little bike. Easier trail and big bike and people will say big bike. Hard trail and a big bike and nobody will even notice. Horses for course. 

Never acoustic though. Never analog. Just a bike cause that's what it is.

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Curveball
+2 BeesIntheTrap Lynx .

Hmm, if I heard someone mention a "cheater bike", then my mind would go to an EMTB. Right or wrong, that's how I would interpret it.

But, OTOH, if I understood your definition of a cheater bike, then I would get pretty interested in it. I haven't had an "up-mountain bike" for quite a long time and think a new one would be pretty darn cool.

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syncro
+1 Curveball

This just goes to show how diverse language can be and how time can change meanings.  Within some circles/communities one term might mean one thing and in another something completely different. For context my use of the term cheater bike was when ebikes weren't yet a thing, so people recognized that a cheater bike was a lightweight bike that was way easier on a climb than a typical freeride/enduro/all-mountain type bike.

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Lynx
-1 dhr999

But Mark, going by your definition, then an Enduro bike would then be a cheater bike for the downs, as it makes them oh so much easier than that XC Whippet ;-)

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syncro
0 Curveball Lynx .

Yeah, but it's got to be put in the context of the riding group and trails. If normally everyone is riding an enduro style bike then bringing a lightweight bike for the climb, in that context, is bringing the cheater bike.

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Lynx
0 BeesIntheTrap dhr999

Mark, while that could be somewhat of a marker/true, I think that if the person riding the "cheater" bike can also ride all of the DH/Trails you're riding on your super slacked out, massive travel, super wide, super heavy, ultra soft tyred bikes, all be it a bit slower because, well you just can't plow, you have to be mindful, pick lines, move the bike around, not bash into stuff, then maybe it is you and the entire group who are "cheating". 

Just because 9 out of 10 people do something, doesn't make it right ;-)

Lynx
-2 BeesIntheTrap dhr999 old-dude-still-riding Skooks

Just a little reply to the user dhr999, who is such a little triggered emo, thanks for the continuous neg rep you keep giving and for not having the cahones to ever actually comment on anything. Maybe ask yourself why my comments trigger you so much, is it maybe because deep down you know that you're wrong and my comments call you out and cause you to question yourself?

dhr999
0 Mtbikesince87 Skooks Lynx . BeesIntheTrap

To your comment above, I find a good deal of what you (and Barry) 'contribute' are often the worst part of this site, and judging by the number of negative reactions you get, I don't think I'm alone. ...and I somehow doubt you would have the 'cohones', even if you could spell it correctly, to call me little or emo to my face. You come across as sad, frustrated keyboard warrior; a little self-awareness would do you well and improve what seems to be a miserable existence.

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Lynx
-3 BeesIntheTrap old-dude-still-riding dhr999 Skooks Cam McRae

Wow, you're a real internet tough guy dhr999, maybe at some point you actually contribute something useful to the site, but I highly doubt it, you'll just keep getting yourself triggered, hiding behind your keyboard and neg rep clicks because you know, the truth hurts ;-) Those who can only refer to violence when words are being used :-\ I'm shaking in my boots :-\

As for the spelling of cojones, I only use that version for men, for whinny, emos like you I use the correct female spelling ;-) But maybe one day you'll learn to actually spell COJONES right ;-)

cam@nsmb.com
+2 dhr999 Mtbikesince87

A couple of things here Lynx. If you can’t take getting neg repped and feel it’s necessary to call someone out for doing it, you might need to get thicker skin for the internet. 

Everyone contributes to communities the way they see fit and expressing disagreement with a downvote is a perfectly legitimate way to do that, independent of whether you choose to comment or not.

I don’t think you are in any position to call anyone out for spelling. That’s petty. Feel free to spellcheck your own comment above though.

Saying someone wouldn’t call you out in a certain way in person is different than threatening violence. It’s a suggestion that perhaps your internet persona sometimes fails to line up with the way people generally interact in civil society. It certainly sometimes fails to live up to the standard we try to uphold on nsmb.com. Calling someone “a triggered little emo” is not civil and certainly worse than a downvote. You’ve also launched ad hominem attacks recently that have put you on our watch list. We thought those were in the past for this community.  

Please try to be a little more respectful of other users and take into consideration that we have worked very hard to create a community that can disagree cordially and with the awareness that we are all part of the same team. 

And TBF, you aren’t the only person who has been on our radar lately and disappointed us with a lack of respect for other users.

sky101
+5 Velocipedestrian Timer justwan naride Cy Whitling BeesIntheTrap

Can you please never use AI art again please? - a very long time reader

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cam@nsmb.com
+2 sky101 Velocipedestrian

Thanks for chiming in. Check the rest of the comments. We are sorted.

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sky101
+2 Cam McRae Velocipedestrian

Thanks Cam :)

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andy-eunson
+4 Konrad 4Runner1 mnihiser shenzhe

Bikes and e-bikes. There. Done. Oh wait, road and mountain.  And cross. Oh and commuter. And cargo bike. And gravel. And different colours. How about we ride bikes and don’t be dicks about it. We have enough in common to be unified against whatever threats there are to our trails and bike paths and bike lanes.

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Glass
+4 Lynx . Skooks BeesIntheTrap BarryW

Why don't we just stick to reality instead, eh?
Bikes with a motor are motorbikes whether electric or gas whether the throttle is on the handlebar or on the cranks. 
If it doesn't have a motor and you need to pedal to make it go up then it's a bike. Easy. 

You want to ride an ebike,  I have no problem with that. Just don't pretend you do the same effort as me on my mountain bike and stop trying to justify going to the e-side. Don't try to convert me unless you are offering to buy me one. End of story.

As for wheel size how about we stick to rim size rather than wheel size with tyres on? A 2.3in tyre will have a smaller overall diameter than a 2.6 or a 4.0 so it makes no sense at all to call the rim by one particular overall size.
A "29in" rim is 622mm or 24.5in, a 650b/"27.5in" is 584mm or 23in and a "26in" rim is 559mm or 22inches.

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Lynx
+1 BeesIntheTrap

Well said Glass, nothing further needs to be said on this matter. 

So to just call out the actual difference between the wheel sizes and the BS that manufacturers have and are still trying to make you believe. So looking at the very simple math, you can easily see just how much BS that actually is, if 650B was exactly between 26" and 29", it would have an ERD of 590.5, i.e. it is just over 1/3 bigger than 26", or more accurately 2/5 bigger.

622         584         622                              63             63            63
584 -       559 -       559 -                            2 /              3 /            5 /
-------       ------        -------                          ------            -----           -----
   38           25            63                           31.5             21           12.5  x 2 = 25

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Glass
+1 BeesIntheTrap

A 2.5x23in tyre comes out at 28in in diameter whereas the same width for a 22in and a 24.5in rim comes out as 27in and 29.5in. This is just an example of why it's silly to call rims by 26, 27.5 and 29in size. 
Also a 700c road bike rim which is the same size as a "29in" rim (622mm) with a small 28mm tyre would have a diameter closer to 26inches!

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cam@nsmb.com
-1 Mtbikesince87 BeesIntheTrap BarryW

By your definition Glass, because class 2 eMTBs must be pedalled to make them go, they aren’t motorbikes. If you can’t tell the difference between a motorbike and a mountain bike with an electric assist, there’s little point in discussing the distinction though. Or if you prefer to call it something different because you think it’s insulting to those that use them. It also has a distinct whiff of elitism. Feel free to call them what you like though  

I’m not sure who you are referring to here who is justifying what they ride or trying to convince you about eMTBs but I don’t have any issue with what bike you ride and I don’t care to convince you. 

I don’t believe anyone is “pretending they do the same effort as you” either. I’m quite sure there are riders on any kind of bike - including actual motorbikes - that put in more effort than I do and less effort than I do, regardless of the bike I am riding or the bike they are riding. I’m sure that is the case for you as well. Personally, that is of no consequence to me. 

I do however agree that naming wheel sizes after tire diameters is confusing. Maybe we need a system like automotive tires? It likely isn’t less confusing though since most people have no idea how auto tire sizing works, but at least it would be possible to decipher if one chooses to figure it out, which isn’t as easy with bike wheel sizing.

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rolly
+3 tmoore Deniz Merdano Cam McRae

I've never had a problem with the term acoustic. It gives a nod to the musical instruments that, in most cases, are the original or more "pure." Amish is funny though.

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Zero-cool
+3 Skooks Curveball BeesIntheTrap

I think bike and ebike work quite well.

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old-dude-still-riding
+3 Lynx . BeesIntheTrap Skooks

To me there are bikes and there are e-bikes. Analog and acoustic ? --that's finger nails on a chalk board.

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Ride.DMC
+2 Konrad Curveball

I have heard from someone in the industry that Mullet Cycles has been issuing cease & desist letters to companies that used the term "mullet" to describe their mixed wheel bikes & e-bikes...  Which would explain why many brands have quickly switched to MX or mixed wheel...

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cam@nsmb.com
+1 Curveball

Interesting. They sound like team players. What the bike industry needs is more lawsuits. 

They should be memed.

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Blofeld
+1 Velocipedestrian

Pizza-Cutters: A seasonal pejorative for mountain bikes with tires narrower than 3.5” that leave deep ruts in soft fatbike trails. Alternatively, a term used by XC skiers to describe any bike that crosses or otherwise touches a groomed ski trail.

——

As for the debate at hand, context is key. If I’m talking to Big J about bikes or riding at work, its always Harleys. He knows I mountain bike, but we don’t get tripped up often. I don’t drop the “e” from ebikes or ebiking, but if there was ever confusion, I’d probably just glare and really annunciate the syllables in “bicycle”. “Pedal bike” kinda works too, since it really gives the opportunity to pantomime the pedalling motion.

Aside: I would say softtail indicates a bike with very short travel and flexing elements in place of pivots, possibly without a shock, and is not a lost term for FS bike.

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Lynx
+1 justwan naride Cy Whitling TrailPackerII BarryW Skooks BeesIntheTrap rolly GravityAddict Cam McRae psyguy dhr999

Yeah, nice click bait and article to really stir the hornets nest Cam :-\

Well, I'm in the camp of bike and electric motor bikes, how about that, simple and factual! If you want to elaborate on which type of each bike you might ride, then it would go a little something like this, "I'm going to be riding my dual suspension bike tomorrow", "I'm going to be riding my dual suspension electric motor bike tomorrow", not hard in the least, very easy to understand, one has a motor, the other does not. Or if you find it hard or too long to say the actual name out in full, we'll accept e-bike, there, simple and done.

This standard has already been established when motors were first strapped to bicycles, they didn't then start calling bikes acoustic, Amish or any such, they just called bikes with motors, motorbikes, motor bikes without a definition of what sort of motor because combustion was all that there. Now you have the option, electric or combustion, but either way, it's still a motor and hence easy enough to name the vehicle it resides in/on.

Side note on the 650B thing...it wasn't pushed as 27.5 because 650B was road centric, it was to try and confuse people into thinking that it fell squarely between 26" and 29", when in reality it's much closer to 26", like 3/4" of an inch bigger and then 2.5" smaller than a 29er of the same width. It was Giant who did this because their run by accountants engineers missed the 29er boat and wanted to make sure they didn't miss the next big trend, but wanted to try and make it sound even better than it was.

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cam@nsmb.com
+4 Mark bishopsmike ultimatist Karl Fitzpatrick DancingWithMyself Curveball Lynx . BarryW

Not clickbait Lynx. We don’t do that. 

The article title references the article quite accurately rather than trying to deceive you. Clickbait titles are misleading and sensationalist.

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Lynx
+1 Cy Whitling TrailPackerII Mammal BarryW GravityAddict Cam McRae dhr999

Not clickbait in the normal sense, I guess more in that this is a well known very divisive topic/sensational topic Cam and just putting the sure to aggravate title of "just call it a pedal bike", is for sure a form of click bait/sensationalised title to get engagement.

Amazingly, it seems that so far, not a lot have taken the bait. Note to self, learn more self restraint, don't let people manipulate and trigger you so easily :facepalm:

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cam@nsmb.com
+2 GravityAddict Pete Roggeman ultimatist Karl Fitzpatrick Velocipedestrian TrailPackerII Lynx . BarryW

Still not clickbait. Good note though!

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poidh
+1 Cam McRae

Dammit, now you've fed the AI beast some images and words, and then shared them, it's going to be be self fulfilling...

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Bikes
+1 Cam McRae

Man I love AI images.  It’s like a modern where’s Waldo or wacky Wednesday.

Check out those tools!

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papa44
+1 Skooks

My username is my first cycle messenger callsign given to me at a firm where P was for pushbike then a number whereas motorcycles were m then a number. Simpler times. 

I don’t see why we need to change the current nomenclature: pushbike or bicycle describes a human powered bike and can be any type of bike, mountain bike is a specific type of pushbike or bicycle, a motorcycle or motorbike is a motorised bike and an electric assisted bicycle is an e-bike for short. An example would be that we don’t call petrol cars fossil cars or dino juicers or whatever we just call them cars. Electric cars are just given an e before there name to differentiate them from their dino juice powered siblings. 

I have no problem with e-bikes but I don’t see why we have to change the name of the incumbent to differentiate it from the newcomer. Anyway, I’m not even sure I’m the authority I think I am, I’m only just begrudgingly changing my 10 speed mountain push bicycle into a newfangled whizzy 11 speed

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taprider
+1 Lynx .

In North America, "push bike" is a verb+noun, and what you do when your gears are not low enough or your bike is too heavy to pedal up to the downhill trails.

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Bikes
+1 Andy Eunson

Yeah!  And we use gas or gasoline if you’re fancy.  Car or EV.  And pants or jeans, get outta here with your trousers and don’t even start with AL-u-MIN-i-um 

;)

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papa44
0

Ah but we sensibly wear pants under our trousers, what on earth do you chaps in the colonies do?

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Curveball
0

I use the term "pantaloons". ;-)

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BarryW
+1 sky101 Cy Whitling BeesIntheTrap tmoore psyguy 4Runner1 dhr999

This feels like going for the lowest hanging fruit you could have taken Cam. 

It doesn't feel like real thoughts, it feels more like an attempt at nonsense engagement on a known divisive topic. 

And the AI images are very disappointing. And don't play coy about not knowing the readers here don't approve. It's been noted in the recent past.

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cam@nsmb.com
+2 Matt Cusanelli dhr999 old-dude-still-riding BarryW

Yep. I write about nonsense topics. That’s me. I have fake thoughts. I’ve been doing it for 25 years. Nonsense. Thanks for your input. Valuable as usual. 

Coy? You really know me. I’ve used one AI image in the past - as far as I can remember -  to accompany an article by Mike Ferrentino about a scorched apocalyptic future. We talked about it a little internally - because I wasn’t entirely happy with it - but others approved. No flags were raised and I don’t recall a single comment objecting to it. I had no inkling that this one would cause any ire but I have been made more than aware now and have acknowledged the well expressed arguments against their use - and declared that it won’t happen again.  Thanks for piling on though. Your president would  be proud of your strategy  

I don’t recall a campfire but it could have been during a rare time when I was away and not handling editor’s duties.

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Cydwhit
+3 BeesIntheTrap BarryW justwan naride

I think this may be the article folks are mentioning. Seemed like the comment section made their thoughts on AI images rather clear on that one, which is why I was disappointed to see them again here, and was motivated to chime in.

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cam@nsmb.com
0

Yep. I was out of the country for that one. I had no idea there had been any backlash previously. 

I can't find the one I used earlier, where nobody expressed disapproval (maybe because it was used on one of Ferrentino's articles?) but it matters not. The people have spoken.

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BarryW
-3 Cam McRae dhr999 shenzhe

Yeah, and the internet only works in Canada . . .

You've been accurately called out for doing something that HAS come up before and was made clear we the readership do not approve.

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Jotegir
+1 Cam McRae

Barry are you giving Cam a hard time for not working the website while out of the country? That's not very nice.

cam@nsmb.com
0

Oh HAS it?

I was on vacation with my family dude. I did not hear about it from my colleagues and had no knowledge of it. I feel no shame whatsoever for failing to know something that happened while I was taking a break from work. Even less after being chastised for it by you.

justwan-naride
+1 BarryW

@Cy, yes that's the one. I'd forgotten it was actually more than one AI image. And people were in indeed clear on their feelings about it.

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Penny_Farthing
+1 XXX_er BeesIntheTrap 4Runner1

Call them what they are:

Coal Powered MOPEDS. 

Gotta say that AI image is hilarious. 2 bikes and 6 full faced helmets. 14 20" crescent wrenches for the deisel moped mechanics. 1 box defying gravity in 12 different ways. And that spoke lacing, I don't even think an ai generated spoke calculator could figure that one out.

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loren
+1 BarryW Lynx . Skooks 4Runner1 Cam McRae

A bike with a motor is a motor bike. 

Let's all just be honest about this: if you have a motor on your cycle, it's a motorcycle. 

As regards real bikes: I believe I must be one of the relatively few CA (as in California) rather than CA (as in Canada) regular readers of NSMB, but down here, anyway, we just call those real bikes- and snigger at the poor saps who feel the need for mechanical assistance.

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cam@nsmb.com
0

Anybody who rides moto would love that joke. 

Actually both of those jokes. But call it what you want. 

Our largest audience is actually from the US and California is our third biggest region behind B.C. and England (since the U.K. as a whole is considered the nation). Ontario is fourth and Washington is fifth.

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XXX_er
0

A VERY long time ago i rode  dirtbikes  on Bby mtn/ Burke mtn, contrary  to popular myth hereabouts that bikes with motor don't require  effort it takes a lot of strength and energy to control a dirt bike, ride it for 10 minutes and your arms are all pumped up I used those squishy things to get my arms in shape. I was just riding an easy going 250 enduro bike but the power to weight ratio of a motoX bike was off the charts, the world cup GP moto riders would ride 45 minute Moto's they rode 2 orf them and they had fitness level up there with a world cup soccer player

edit: America eh, most places in BC you can ride an EeB and not be the antichrist, in any case i am going to continue to call it wtf i want,  Braaappp eh

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Glass
+4 BeesIntheTrap Lynx . Skooks Cam McRae

Riding moto is physical without a doubt especially if you do steep climbs on a dirtbike. That said pedaling an ebike uphill isn't hard unless you turn the motor off. It's cardio but your muscles don't hurt like they do if you climb on a mountain bike. This, of course, is assuming you are fit enough to ride a mountain up most hills.

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XXX_er
0

its really physical if you get a Moto stuck

But why does it have to be hard,  instead of doing 1 up/ down lap in the puking zone on an acoustic bike at the local area I do 3 or 5 lap on the Eeb in zone 2  SO I just ride further at a better HR ?

Around here  class 1 is permitted on trails paid for by the gov SO nobody cares in fact its been suggested  the Eeb-ers could adopt  the furthest/ highest trails so I carry the silky 24/7 for the blowdown or i can ride my sthil up there for big stems

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syncro
+1 Lynx .

From a physiological perspective the point you're trying to make fails as you're assuming that someone on their bike is in zone 4/5 on their climb and only able to do one lap. While that may be true for someone who's aerobic capacity is low, that doesn't mean they can't improve to the point of being able to do multiple laps in lower zones with occasionally going up to zone 4 on a punchier section.

Of course someone on an ebike can do do a few laps at an easier exertion level, but that only holds true as long as the battery lasts. Whereas a really fit person could end up doing more laps because their fitness is better. I haven't heard of anyone who wants to be doing a 3rd full lap of Seymour/Fromme on their ebike when they've run out of power, but I do know people who will do that third lap on their bike and all they needed was hydration and maybe an energy bar or gel.

Now this isn't to say that people can't improve their aerobic fitness while riding an ebike, but there is a hard ceiling on that idea which is limited by battery capacity. Whereas a rider on a bike has a greater potential to improve their fitness, and their ability to ride long distances increases substantially once the ebike runs out of power. In general, the way ebike proponents compare aerobic fitness between themselves and bike riders is highly flawed.

XXX_er
-1 BeesIntheTrap

yeah  where i ride people don't do > 1 lap whereas i can easily do a couple laps or more and I can just buy another 630W battery  for the Eeb to thro in the pack with the Silky 

but if you wana ride your acoustic bike then do so

syncro
0

Not sure of the point of that response xxx_er as doesn't address the flaws in your previous post.

XXX_er
-2 old-dude-still-riding BeesIntheTrap

there is no flaw I just buy more batteries

I ride, i go for beer  it makes me happey

you ride the amish bike if you makes you happy

I'm not playing stupid word games with you

but I think Cam might ?

syncro
0

For someone who’s retired and supposed to be living the good life it’s strange how obstinate and bitter you can be.

Hbar
+1 Cam McRae

I'm late to this, but at least in Ohio (USA) the Amish actually have adopted ebikes in large numbers.  My family encountered many Amish folks on ebikes while on a bike tour a few years ago, but you can find articles about it.

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cerealkilla_
+1 BeesIntheTrap

Nothing wrong with e-bike. Feeling the need for a better or different word is just silly.

Also, e-bike or electric-bike is the terminology used by regulators. 

If I invent a bike that runs exclusively on farts, I fully expect it to be called an F-bike, and won't get all butthurt if I'm distinguished from mountain bikes and ebikes by everyone else.

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cam@nsmb.com
-1 BeesIntheTrap

I don’t think this discussion, for the most part, relates to what class 2 electric assist mountain bikes are called or should be called, aside from those insisting they are mopeds or motorbikes, perhaps in an effort insult, belittle or trigger those who ride them. 

Ebike works fine. I don’t think anyone here, aside from the aforementioned group, objects to them being called e-bikes, (or e-bikes) or eMTBs to distinguish them from other types.

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turboshart
0

This comment has been removed.

XXX_er
0 Cam McRae Joseph Crabtree

mtn bike, acoustic or amish if someone doesnt understand or doesnt get the joke they can alwasy ask what i mean or just not say anything,   for me  its not worth a second thot

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Trogdor
0 Skooks 4Runner1

Meat powered?

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XXX_er
-1 BeesIntheTrap

does't do it for me and beside every thing needs msucle power including dirt bikes or Eeb, or amish or acoustic bikes

and every time i hit the power-on switch a kitten dies

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Joe_Dick
0

noted

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BryceG
0

This comment has been removed.

DaveSmith
0

It's all very Bob Dylan in this never ending argument. I kind of hate it but I've been using Eb - pronounced Ee-b. 

Here's JMascis with an electrified acoustic to further muddle things

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22lDMmPFaEs

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XXX_er
+1 Curveball

I like that ^^  1 syllable and I will probably use it, if no buddy knows what I am talking about even better

just like Andy Kaufman loved it when people didnt get the joke,  was he really serious about wrestling Jerry Lawlor or all those women ?

well of course he was

I asked my  buddy ( probably a genius) the Bass player with a tree planting problem or (vise versa ) why  he plays Bass ? Well buddy can play guitar but  back in the day his dad told him there are lots of guitar players but not many bass players so the  bass player is always working and i've seen buddy play 11 gigs at a folk festival

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Curveball
0

Aren't all bass players geniuses?

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XXX_er
+1 Curveball

Duno, but besides the music or the pounding trees, probably a genuis

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StranjBikes
0

This comment has been removed.

StranjBikes
0

What category of bike is a dirt donkey? 🤔

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velocipedestrian
+1 Cam McRae

Probably something in the Surly catalogue.

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cam@nsmb.com
+1 Curveball

You get to choose.

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jt
0 BarryW Konrad

The use of AI was a very slick redirection of the comment section. More griping about that than the substance of the article. Very shrewd. May I suggest a career in politics :D? As for mullet, I think the term is out of favor from bike brands as there's a company by the same name. Not that they matter, but I can understand why co's go to lengths to avoid the term to avoid any free advertising for those ninnies.

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cam@nsmb.com
+1 Konrad 4Runner1 BarryW

That was certainly no attempt at redirection JT. You think I was hoping for all that vitriol about the image? I didn't anticipate it at all, considering we've used it once before without any outcry or even a single comment. Why would I write an article if I was hoping to distract people from it? I don't understand that at all. 

Cy's comments have changed my feeling about using AI images for our medium though and I won't for this sort of thing in the future. And I'd be a shitty politician because I am quite fond of telling the truth, even when it's not in my best interest. 

Mullet bikes is a good catch. I didn't know about them. It seems like they are pretending to have invented the idea but I owned a 26/24 Big Hit back in the early aughts.

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jt
+1 Cam McRae

I was just ribbing ya. I never wondered what Wiggum would look like in spandex though, and now I know why.

And mullet? yeahhhhh. Interesting couple of cats, and not in a good way.

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justwan-naride
+2 Cam McRae BarryW

I remember one article accompanied by an AI generated image here before. I think it was a group of people around a campfire or something like that. At least 3 of them shared the same face. I also remember commenting about it (or intending to but not bothering? Not sure). What I'm certain of though is how I felt about it.

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morgan-heater
0 Cam McRae XXX_er taprider BeesIntheTrap

I vote Amish!

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XXX_er
-1 BeesIntheTrap

It depends on the sect if  they are into motors or electricity or wtf, a guy i met on a course told me about working on a typewriter driven by a gas motor out at one of these religious sects cuz they were into moto's but not electricity. So the  motor sat outside the building providing the power with a shaft coming thru the wall , I could see how that would work altho getting the speed right would be challenging

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flattire2
0 Lynx . Glass Flatted-again 4Runner1

Calling a regular bike 'acoustic' is akin to calling heterosexual people 'SIS'

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cam@nsmb.com
0

I assume you mean cis?

How does that line up?

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loren
0

This comment has been removed.

a.funks
0 Cam McRae BeesIntheTrap

Of my three bikes that I’ve owned for 22, 6 and 2.5 years respectively I tend to call them the Brompton, the Levo or ebike or full-sus, and the Moxie or singlespeed or hardtail. 

Sometimes I’ll refer to normal bikes if I’m checking that a group ride isn’t going to be all e-bikes (happened to me recently and I had a few hours of trying not to die following big bouncy electric bikes on a singlespeed hardtail).

All of my bikes have to be pedalled or they don’t move so calling non-e bikes pedal bikes doesn’t work.

Recently the Levo was having a factory refurb on its brakes so I commuted on the Brompton. I took the boring flat way to work instead and did a lot of stressing about potholes and traffic. Normally with the Levo I have a good hard pedal up some hills unreasonably fast (impatient singlespeeder + motor) and enjoy the downhills and unofficial off-road routes with a few jumps and drops that I’ve found, and keep away from most of the traffic. And when I’m tired (because I’m a 40something human with a busy job and kids and other physical hobbles) I let the motor do more work. Better than sitting in a car like most commuters and leaves far more energy to attack my proper MTB rides.

It is bizarre how polarising e-bikes are…

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SuspensionLab_JonoChurch
0 Cam McRae BeesIntheTrap

Well now I'm definitely sticking to calling the acoustic bikes

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Joe_Dick
-5 jhtopilko Cy Whitling Flatted-again GravityAddict 4Runner1 Abies dirtnapped

This comment has been removed.

cam@nsmb.com
+4 Niels van Kampenhout GravityAddict 4Runner1 dirtnapped

I don’t think that’s funny.

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Flatted-again
+1 4Runner1

That’s pretty bad. Like, cmon, you might be joking but even so you should know that some things should be thoughts, not words. There is a delete button if you need.

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jhtopilko
+1 BarryW BeesIntheTrap Nick Meulemans

I've called them adaptive for a few years. It's apt.

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cam@nsmb.com
+1 Nick Meulemans

Say more about that.

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Joe_Dick
+1 BarryW jhtopilko 4Runner1

Adaptive Bikes - Mobility devices that allow people to do things they otherwise could not or would not do. I am a sticking with it. 

I apologize for the acoustic joke. It was in poor taste. For what it’s worth, I am pro normalizing neurodiversity.

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syncro
+3 Cam McRae 4Runner1 justwan naride Nick Meulemans BarryW

For jhtopilko and Adrian; to call ebikes as commonly used by abled bodied people as adaptive in a effort to mock people those people is a slight against people who aren't able bodied.

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Joe_Dick
+3 BarryW Joseph Crabtree BeesIntheTrap jhtopilko 4Runner1

except that one of the arguments against anyone saying anything against the use of e-bikes on non motorized trails if to call them ableist. accessibility is literally how they are being marketed and sold to land managers. you can’t have it both ways.

syncro
0 Cam McRae Skooks justwan naride Nick Meulemans BarryW Joseph Crabtree Lynx . BeesIntheTrap

What you're saying is a fallacy of composition. Do ebikes get sold to people with mobility issues? Yes. Do all people who use ebikes have mobility issues? No.

Mocking someone who is able bodied as lame or weak is telling people who aren't able bodied that they aren't valued as much as able bodied people. You're effectively telling people who aren't able bodied that they suck simply because they aren't able bodied. It's a bad stance to take. It's the same thing as using gay or fag as a slur and is know as othering.

Joe_Dick
+1 BarryW Joseph Crabtree Lynx . Trogdor BeesIntheTrap Mark Skooks justwan naride Nick Meulemans

you are really going out of your way to be offended.

syncro
+3 Skooks BeesIntheTrap Nick Meulemans

Actually Adrain, the core part of my argument is for people to take a pause to consider how their view on a topic may be incomplete because they come from a place of privilege, or not knowing someone else's experience. In context of this discussion it would include not using someone else's lack of abilities as a reason to belittle them or others. Of course with free speech people are free to say what they want in a lot of areas as hate speech and defamation laws are limited, but for those that choose to go down that path they should be aware that the consequence is exposing themselves as someone who may be ill-informed or simply hateful.

That said, I do feel that people speaking/acting in a harmful manner to others should be given some generosity of assumption in that their upbringing or peer groups may have influenced them to be hateful towards others. Racism is a good example of how socialization can influence negative views towards others.  Racism also serves as a good example of how it's easy to show why those negative views are wrong and why people should move on from them. However, we often see that some people persist in having them. There can be multiple reasons for this, and from a psychological standpoint this can include having a fragile ego and low self esteem, hence the need to prop oneself up by denigrating others. It might also stem from not being able or not wanting to reconcile their anger/emotions.

There's a great quote from Maya Angelou that can be applied across many areas of life and works well here in the context of this discussion. “Do the best you can until you know better. Then, when you know better, do better”. In conversations where denigrating comments are made,  when people get called out for them we often see the retorts of things like "that's woke bs, libtard nonsense, or you offend easily". This is where Angelou's quote is so poignant, as it puts the responsibility for the hateful comments and learning to do better on the person making them, not on the person who's supposedly "offended".

FWIW I think the label of Amish for bikes flies below the belt as well. Whether people want to make arguments one way or the other is up to them, but it seems rather pointless to me when there are already perfectly reasonable and logical terms to use for ebikes and bikes, or if people want ebikes and pedal bikes.

cam@nsmb.com
+2 Mark 4Runner1 Nick Meulemans BeesIntheTrap

Mountain bikes - Mobility devices that allow people to do things they otherwise could not or would not do.

Doesn't seem terribly useful in this case.

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Joe_Dick
0 Lynx . Nick Meulemans

I was going to leave this alone but now I see you are cool with the term Amish Bike. Hypocrite much.

Joe_Dick
+1 BeesIntheTrap

The intent of both phases is the same. except that you personally react positively to one and negatively to the other. I personally think both phases are mildly amusing, But I am not Amish nor do I ride an Adaptive Bike. The core of Marks argument is that not being a part of those community’s I can not decide how this would affect them. 

Nor do I know what the Amish think about to spending your spare time riding $10’000 mountain bikes in the woods. I don’t meet very many members of the Amish community out on the trails.

syncro
+1 4Runner1 Nick Meulemans BeesIntheTrap

I'm just telling you what's up and giving you an opportunity to see things from a perspective you might not have a lot of experience with.

My job puts me in a place where I work with all sorts or marginalized groups so I get to see/hear up close how these sorts of things affect people.

There are enough legitimate arguments to make against ebikes that you don't need to resort to the othering of marginalized people.

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cam@nsmb.com
0 XXX_er BeesIntheTrap

I'm not sure AB, but it seems you are suggesting that "Amish bike" is offensive in some way. It actually lines up pretty well with who the Amish are. Maybe I'm missing something though. Automobiles and most electrical appliances are forbidden for observant Amish people.

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