REVIEW
Hayes Dominion Brakes: 2-Piston VS. 4-Piston
Compounded
I've been riding this same pair of Hayes Dominion A4 disc brakes since November 2019. They've received some love in the form of brakes bleeds and a cycle, clean, and reset process on the caliper pistons but after four years of regular use they're in amazing condition. I've installed enough fresh Dominion brakes over those years that I can say they are tight and smooth as a fresh-from-the-box setup. No lever slop. No piston drag.
I'm registering this in defense of the following, where I compare these well-used Dominion 4-piston brakes against a pair of new Dominion 2-piston brakes as if the 4-year gap in usage doesn't matter.
Aside from the number of pistons, these are not identical brakes in one clearly visible way. The 4-piston Dominion brakes are their A-series, which references the aluminum lever blade featuring Hayes' very usable tool-free reach adjust. The 2-piston Dominion brakes are their T-series, which references the Reynolds carbon lever blade, which requires a tool to change lever reach.
The lever blades are interchangeable and both the 4-piston Dominion brakes and the 2-piston Dominion brakes are sold with either option. T4 and A4 vs. T2 and A2 with the carbon lever blade in control and some titanium hardware commanding a 75 USD per brake premium. Price-wise, the 4- and 2-piston versions are identical with the T4 and T2 selling for 325 USD/wheel and the A4 and A2 selling for 250 USD/wheel.
I bring up the cost as it may help a rider trying to choose between the two systems.
Where the brake levers and age of the brakes don't make this a perfect comparison, at least I'm running the same pad compound. I often ruminate, while reading brake reviews, how fair it is to compare systems without using a standardized pad compound and bed-in process.
For pad materials, Hayes has two options. I've ridden both on the 4-piston brakes but only the semi-metallic compound on the 2-piston brakes. Hayes sells both pad materials for the same price so it's up to the rider to balance the benefits of both.
From a min-maxing perspective, their sintered metal brake pads are the clear winner. The things last 'forever' and provide excellent friction. They are a bit noisy, and genuinely loud until they warm up, but the trade-off for pad life and performance over that life is impressive.
From a riding perspective, I prefer the semi-metallic pads, in any weather conditions. They have a more controlled feel when they engage, they're dead quiet, and I find the power curve is still excellent. They do wear out much, much faster.
Pad Backing Plate Aside
Actually, apart from compounds, there's a third option as the stock T-series brakes include pads that combine the same semi-metallic compound with an aluminum backplate to save weight. How much weight? Seriously, squirt a little water out of your bottle. At what cost? Actually, they sell for the same amount of money (39 USD/wheel) as both the steel-backed 2-piston and 4-piston pads in both compounds.
Is there a performance cost to running an aluminum backing plate? Theoretically, there could be issues or benefits to heat management depending on who you talk to. Aluminum will dissipate heat faster but the heat capacity of the material is significantly lower than steel. Does any of that matter considering the rotor is actually dealing with most of the heat generated? I don't know.
Given the price is the same, with my preference for the semi-metallic compound I'd likely go with the aluminum backing plate for both 4-piston and 2-piston in hopes that the faster heat dissipation and less heat absorption would make it less likely that I'd glaze over my pads. I don't have a gram of evidence that would actually be the case. If the aluminum backing plates were more expensive then I'd just go with steel.
Just You Weight
Brakes are not generally a place I'd look to for weight savings but, for those that care, it is the clearest advantage of a two-piston brake system. Some, maybe most, 4-piston calipers are more prone to irregular piston retraction issues where one piston gets stuck proud or flush while the others move freely, but that hasn't been an issue I've had with the Dominions.
Here again, this is not a perfect comparison as the 2-piston Dominions I'm riding have carbon fibre brake levers, a couple of titanium bolts, and let's not forget those aluminum pad backing plates. So rather than a direct comparison, let us consider that 55 grams per wheel is more of a maximum weight savings between the heaviest version, the A4, and the lightest version, the T2.
How much brake performance is worth giving up for one hundred grams of weight savings?
Formula Flashback
These are not the first brakes I've ridden where both the 4-piston and 2-piston varieties share the same master cylinder. I've had comparable experiences with Formula, Magura, and Shimano brakes.
When it comes to these setups I'll say there are two varieties. Brakes like the Formula Cura where the Cura 2-piston and Cura 4-piston setups feel so different at the lever I cannot foresee anyone mix-matching them happily. And, brakes like the Magura MT series where the lever feel is so identical that Magura actually sells MT Trail setups that use a 4-piston front and 2-piston rear caliper.
In one sense, the Hayes Dominions are closer to the Magura setup in that I could imagine mix-matching the systems together. But where I draw the parallel with Formula brakes is just how much power the 2-piston Dominion system brings to bear.
With the Formulas, riders who like their brakes to engage very crisply are best served by the Cura 2. The Cura 4 has a softer initial feel but superior heat management and there's more power when I'm hard on the levers. I have a clear preference for the sintered pads with the Cura 2 to eke out every bit of bite, but I rather run the semi-metallic with the Cura 4 for an improved feel. That is, sintered in the rear for the added life, and semi-metallic in the front as I find it easier to modulate.
Either way, despite 'only' being a 2-piston system the Cura 2 has enough power for most riding situations.
Comparatively, there's not a 'feel' related conversation with the Dominion brakes. The 2-piston system has excellent power and the initial feel is nearly identical, if maybe a touch more positive, compared to the 4-piston brake. With the same pad compounds, the 4-piston brake makes sense when heat management and maximum friction come into play, like heavy braking on steep descents.
Better Living Through Carbon Fibre
The only carbon component I truly lust for is brake lever blades, and even then it's only a true ardor when weather conditions get truly wet and wintery. When my aluminum brake levers are as cold as ice, well, then carbon fibre is oh-so-nice.
And when it comes to better living through carbon fibre, the Reynolds blades on Hayes Dominion T2 & T4 brakes are the nicest shape I've experienced. I'd take carbon comfort over tool-free reach and adjust every day. Even as nice as the Hayes A-series reach adjust is to use.
There was a time when I absolutely would not have shelled out 75 USD per brake for the wet and winter season benefits that they bring. I'd tough it out, get some better gloves, etc. But the last couple of years, whether from how much I work with my hands turning wrenches or just age, despite lots of stretching, I've struggled with pain that is largely sorted by switching from heat-sinking aluminum to fantastic plastic.
Whether the 4-piston or 2-piston Dominion system is the right brake for a given bike or application, for these hands the carbon blades are worth every penny and I'd be going with T-series stoppers. At this time Hayes only sells replacement Dominion lever assemblies in aluminum - both the regular blade and the SFL or 'short finger lever' - but I'd consider upgrading these almost 4-year-old A4 brakes if the carbon blade was available.
Install
The Dominions generally only need a light lever bleed for a fresh install. Otherwise, they use a two-syringe push-and-pull process that some folks think of as a SRAM-style bleed and old folks point out has been used for Magura hydraulic rim brakes since the '90s.
The only real item of note here is that the Dominion bleed fittings don't use a rubber washer like SRAM or Formula. So, while the process is otherwise identical, with Hayes the fittings require a bit of a tool-tightening to fully engage.
Control
I need to mention that it's a good idea to clean rotors thoroughly when swapping between brake compounds. I have a settled preference for the semi-metallic pads for both the 2-piston and 4-piston Dominion brake systems, but I did have to switch back to sintered on the A4 brakes when I ran out of pads. Oops.
Additionally, if buying Dominion brakes tomorrow, I'd only be looking at the T2 and T4 because of the number of days I ride a year when it's wet and cold, and the increased comfort I experience from carbon lever blades. The shape of their aluminum blades is excellent, so that's going to be a personal value decision based on location, riding season, and circulation.
I can thoughtlessly jump back and forth between two bikes with Dominion 2-piston and 4-piston brakes without any adjustment, which speaks volumes to the level of power and control that the 2-piston stoppers deliver. Yes, the 4-piston system has more power deep down and better heat management but for most of the riding I do neither of those features is a deal breaker. Controlled power is key, and they're both winning systems in that regard.
That said, I'd still go with the 4-piston Dominion brakes if I were buying a pair of Dominions. The T4 for my use case. The initial feel is so similar, the price is the same, I don't care about a few grams, and the larger 4-piston pads last longer for the same price. Add in the bonus power when I really need to slow a bike down and better heat management for the summer months and they're my winner.
Hayes Dominion T-series brakes, with carbon lever blades, sell for 325 USD per wheel in 2-piston or 4-piston version. Hayes Dominion A-series brakes, with aluminum lever blades, sell for 250 USD per wheel in regular and short-finger-lever varieties.
Height - Steve Buscemi-ish
Wait - Patiently
Ape Index - T-Rex
Age - The same as DOS
Favourite Trail(s) every week - Pipeline (thank you Ken!) to Lower Crippler (thank you Andy!)
Favourite Song(s) this week - I'm Your Man. Nick Cave (covering Leonard Cohen)
Favourite Colour - Cosmic Lilac
Bar Width - It depends
Reach & Stack & ETT - It depends
Crank Length - 175mm except when it's 170mm
Wheel Size - Hot For Mullets
Comments
Velocipedestrian
1 year, 2 months ago
The Dominion is a compelling option, just the thought of another fluid to deal with keeps them off my list.
I was lamenting the loss of IS mounts just last week. Swapping a fork from FS to HT, knowing it was a short term thing, and I'd be back re-aligning the caliper all too soon.
The momentary dream was IS making it so quick I'd happily switch forks around ride to ride. Le sigh.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
IS mounting & external brake routing - sweet little extras on the Enigma.
To me, materials wise, it makes as much sense with magnesium fork lowers as it does with frames. I’ve seen quite a few stripped out fork lowers. Generally user error, but IS would have saved the day either way.
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Velocipedestrian
1 year, 2 months ago
I did it once, back when PM was new. I've been nervous fitting bolts to forks for nearly 20 years since.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
You're far from alone in that regard. Often it's folks mixing up the long/short bolt on their two-bolt brake adapters (just one reason I prefer the four-bolt versions when they fit).
Generally, it's an expensive and wasteful screw-up resulting in the lowers getting replaced. I've seen a few helicoil jobs but I don't know any shops that would offer such a repair. There's not a lot of material there and magnesium's only good principle in terms of being used for fork lowers is it's lightweight.
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Kyle Smith
1 year, 2 months ago
Andrew, any issue with brake noise from the rear? I have a Paradox V3 that uses the same IS mount, but I keep getting intermittent brake howling. I'm running Deore 4-piston brakes and I've tried a couple different pads (currently on MTX red), and even replacing the caliper just in case it might be leaking (it wasn't pads were never fouled).
The only think I can think of is that the mounting isn't as stiff as a post mount and there's some high-frequency resonance happening.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
I’ve not had any frame-specific brake noise. The sintered pads are quite loud when wet until they heat up (friction still great) on every bike/rotor combo.
Keith @Banshee did tell me they’ve had some complaints of harmonic resonance on KS2 FS bikes combined with Dominions. I don’t think this is due to stiffness of the mount, I’ve seen this on a handful of bike/brake combos over my years in shops with PM and IS, and if you haven’t already tried any of these things, here’s my checklist:
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Kyle Smith
1 year, 2 months ago
Thanks for the suggestions.
1) Bed-in isn't an issue, since I'm fastidious about following the pad manufacture's recommendation.
2) That was my thought process from switching from Shimano sintered to MTX red pads
3) Already running a 180 mm but...
4) ...I've thought about switching from the Shimano RT66 rotors to the two-piece IceTecs since they have a different mass and stiffness
5) Might try this as well.
Thanks!
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Cheers! Let me know if/when a solution works.
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AndrewR
1 year, 2 months ago
TRP R1 rotors - cheap and at 2.3 mm they do not flex which removes a lot of the minor noise issues from braking. That said if your brake system/ style doesn't create enough heat then you might not get along with them.
With Code RSC on both bikes (Sight VLT and Sight - both set for 155/ 170 and used for 155/170 type of riding) I get 220 mm HS2 (front and rear) levels of power and control from a set of 203 mm R1 rotors (front and rear).
Set up spacing with the thicker rotor is pretty critical.
@AM: most brands recommend a full rotor change with different pad compounds. I have a set of 'winter' rotors that I twist tie the organic pads to for storage for the other nine months of the year.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
"...most brands recommend a full rotor change with different pad compounds."
This is absolutely true. But, I've never experienced an issue 're-setting' rotors using brake clean, and new rotors are expensive.
Mammal
1 year, 2 months ago
I can confirm re: Banshee/Dominion noise. My buddy has a Titan with Dominions and the rear brake properly screams like a banshee, despite everything he's tried (he is very aware that this is a known issue). Really strange that it doesn't seem to cause the same issues on other frames.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
I've seen it over the years where the harmonics of certain bike/brake combinations align to create a proper racket. There's not always a solution, but I usually can make it a lot better if not eliminate it.
It's worth it to try a SRAM HS2 rotor if he hasn't already. I don't know if it's the way it's cut out or the thicker 2.0mm (edited) size but it's solved vibration issues for a few folks. The other thing I've seen help is a Shimano 2-piece rotor like an XT RT86. Again changing something about the frequency of vibration.
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Jerry Willows
1 year, 2 months ago
2.0mm for the HS2
Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
@Jerry
Good catch, thanks. Also forgot to include your hashtag anywhere despite there being both rigid forks AND single-speeds. Sorry.
#JerryWillowsHatesMyBike
the prophet
1 year, 2 months ago
Dominion A4 + Speshy Enduro currently howling in the rear, with Galfer 2.0mm 203 rotors.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Due to the vibration/harmonics we’re talking about or something else?
AndrewR
1 year, 2 months ago
Depending on which design some of the Galfers have a lot of material removed which leads to material deflection (ie the rotor takes on a slight wave - there is a probably a proper material engineer term for it) when they heat up.
We think that 2.0 is a thick rotor and sure it is noticeably thicker and heavier than 1.8 mm, but weirdly some aspects of mountain biking are still anchored in a road based on session with weight that we will compromise performance over 40 grams in the wrong component.
I try to avoid using a 200 mm HS2 as it is 'only' 2.0 mm and the 2.1 mm of the 220 mm is far less likely to cause the heat deflection related noise. But in most situations 220 mm on the rear is just too much.
Budget solution is TRP R1 and the rapper money solution is BrakeStuff Punch.
There is a reason that BrakeStuff make the Punch rotor in 2.15 mm and it is because it is the unicorn dust of "not too thick and not too thin but not too heavy" and gives enough pads clearance that even an average home mechanic can achieve decent pad spacing.
AndrewR
1 year, 2 months ago
Has he rotated through different brake adaptors? Different final set up with CNC versus forged and also the slightly different shapes might make a difference.
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Nicolas Doebeli
1 year, 2 months ago
For all the people out there with the harmonics problem, I found a solution that worked for my bike and reduced the vibrations almost completely.
I had the harmonics on a trek scratch and they were horrible. I could feel it up to the handlebars and even through the feet. So it wasn't only a noise problem but a proper resonance problem. There is some vibration in your brake system, that is amplified amplified through the bike because the frequency of the vibration is close to the resonance frequency of the bikes mechanical structure. So in minor cases, a different rotor swap or different diameter can help.
However, the thing that really changed it for me was mounting a weight, for example a screw clamp used in plumbing onto the chain- or seatstay (put some tape between the frame and clamp for protection). It only costs a couple pennies in a hardware store, so get two and experiment with the placement on the seat-/chainstay. This works because the stay basically acts as a string of an instrument. By placing the weight you change the frequency of the resonance. Think about your finger on a guitar. Putting your finger exactly in the middle doubles the frequency of the string. So minor adjustments to the position should change the vibrations.
That solved it for me. Start a bit of center of the stay thats directly connected to the brake. Then try out different locations. Tell me if it worked for you as well. Cheers :)
PS: Don't do it on carbon frames, you will create a nice spot for the seatstay to brake. But maybe carbon bikes don't have this problem to begin with.
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BWildman
1 year, 2 months ago
I’ve had issues that I can only put down to harmonic resonance with a rear 4 piston Dominion on a Reeb SST.
No issues with other brakes, must be a combination of the Dominion and the brake mount design on the SST. With no discernible rotor rub in the stand it will intermittently give off a high pitched tone when wheeling the bike or rolling at slow speed. This happens with both types of pads and both Galfer and Shimano rotors. As a desperate measure I tried a small amount of copper grease on the back of the pads which has improved things, but still not perfect. There is an occasional howl under braking even when conditions are bone dry. I’ll try your suggestion of a thin washer between the calipar and brake mount next.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Try Ken’s suggestion of the o-rings between the pads and spring as well. I know he’s doing it as a sound damper for rattle but that could be what’s causing the vibration too.
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BWildman
1 year, 2 months ago
Yeah I’ll try that for sure
Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
@BW, would appreciate it if you post up the results.
Cheers,
Shinook
1 year, 2 months ago
Strange, I have the same bike running Dominions with no issues. What rotors were you using?
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BWildman
1 year, 2 months ago
I’m running Galfer shark rotors but have also tried with Shimano XT rotors with the same result. 180mm rotors in both cases. What are you running?
Shinook
1 year, 2 months ago
@BWildman - Hayes rotors, I usually try to stick with the same brands rotors where possible. I've had issues with Galfer rotors howling in combination with other brakes in the past and I generally prefer rotors thicker than what Shimano offers. I've never had an issue with the Dominions howling w/ Hayes rotors and they are basically all I've used with the Dominions, including on 4 different REEBs.
Stephen
1 year, 2 months ago
I've got the same bike, Paradox V3 and haven't had an issue with the brakes, however I'm running 2-pot XT brakes.
I've been very impressed at the performance of the 2-pot XTs, they've been more than enough to bail me out of any trouble I can get into on a hardtail.
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Kenneth Perras
1 year, 2 months ago
Odd that no Dominion A4, T4 review mentions that the pads rattle in the calipers. The rattle is synonymous with the Shimano pad rattle and without question affects every single caliper. Unlike Shimano brakes equipped with IceTec pads, there's no way to apply anti-rattle measures such as velcro padding to the caliper. Fortunately someone shared with me that a pair of 2mm ID o-rings, often found in suspension service kits, installed on the caliper pin between the pads and spring will take care of that pesky problem. I certainly gained a few gray hairs trying to problem solve that issue before the solution was presented to me.
The T4s have been the most impressive brakes I've used to date. The modulation, power, and consistency have been faultless. However they do come with a list of challenges: cost, availability, pad rattle, leak-prone bleeding procedure, and bottom-load pad install only are the ones I can think off. Some of these can be easily overcome in my experience, but the compromises remain. Overall I have and continue to recommend these brakes to anyone that asks.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
I haven't noticed more or less pad noise than other brakes I'm riding - that's true of both the 2-piston and 4-piston Dominions - but it's something I'll focus on next time I'm on the bike. Any noise reduction tips are always appreciated. Are there any negatives that come from adding the 2mm ID o-rings, such as preloading the spring in a way that changes the lever feel?
Re. Bleeding procedure, you can run a SRAM syringe at the master-cylinder, which has an o-ring, but I find my mechanical twist of the bleed fittings is all that it takes to make things perfect.
Re. price. Comparing regular prices, the Dominion A4 actually sells for less per wheel than a CODE RSC (250 USD vs. 264 USD on Jenson for example), and, significantly better performance considered, I'll argue that makes the Dominion a much better value. Well worth the extra effort to keep spare pads on hand at home.
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Kenneth Perras
1 year, 2 months ago
Regarding the lever feel issue, yes initially it was a thing. A simple spread of the pad spring fixed that and lever feel is back to normal, which in Hayes' case is extremely light.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Awesome, thanks Ken. I didn’t notice any pad rattle on my ride today but I may try the o-rings anyway to see if it’s just something I’ve tuned out.
I do ride in a full face, but the Kali is excellent acoustically. I never miss a wise crack from my ‘friends’
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araz
1 year, 2 months ago
I'm relieved to hear that I'm not the only one with some pad rattle on these brakes, and that I'm not crazy. I'll have to try putting some o-rings on. Thanks!
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JVP
1 year, 2 months ago
All you have to do to fix rattling is take the pad spring thingy and open it wider so it applies more spring force. Problem solved!
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Glenn Bergevin
1 year, 2 months ago
I live where we ride almost exclusively dry trails... that shit of you at the top of a wooden feature with a rock transition gives me anxiety. It isn't huge or gnarly, it just looks like it's been slickoleumed.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
After it rains a bit traction is pretty good, especially on higher-traffic trails that see a lot of braking tires scrubbing the ladders and roots.
I do always laugh a bit when folks travel great distances to experience "The Shore" and come during the dry season. I don't think you can really appreciate the majesty of the place unless you're in the clouds on a dank, damp day, lighting your way with a big smile (or horrified maniacal grin).
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SteveR
1 year, 2 months ago
I've only rode the shore a few times in the now distant past, always in dry, even dusty, conditions, which felt right at home coming from Alberta riding. Having grown up on the wet coast- I had my fill of dank, dark and damp forests long ago. Those wet features would scare the crap out of me!
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
It’s funny, I was having this conversation with Cooper “SHR CNTRY” Quinn recently. If I was going to book myself a couple months off my bike every year it would absolutely be the dry & dusty part of the year.
Dark, dank, damp, and Davetastic for the win.
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Vik Banerjee
1 year, 2 months ago
100%. I'd rather trail ride winter than summer on the island. Although spring and fall are the best seasons by quality of riding experience and full mountain access.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Spring and Fall, no doubt the winners BUT, if you had to choose one?
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Vik Banerjee
1 year, 2 months ago
Fall. Just because those first rains after the dry summer are so glorious and the combo of still having frequent warm-ish dry-ish hero dirt days is hard to beat. Plus I dig winter/snow riding and Fall means that's coming.
Mammal
1 year, 2 months ago
Fall 100%. My favorite time of year. Trail access is still 100%, weather is still mostly predictable, hero dirt is easy to find, and everyone's riding abilities are generally very high due to so much practice over the summer.
Cooper Quinn
1 year, 2 months ago
People know about this place because of legendary photos from guys like Sterl shooting 3200 film in the pitch black and fog. They visit in the summer when the roots are dry and the forest is dusty, and think they've experienced it.
...they're wrong.
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Andy Eunson
1 year, 2 months ago
Indeed. You haven’t ridden "The Shore" until you’ve experienced it with a fully rigid bike with rim brakes and tires made from old hockey pucks. Not that I would ever recommend trying that these days. Trails weren’t what they are today either of course.
My first disc brakes were Hayes. Mag something. Those caused me to buy a good Park work stand. My cheap stand let go and let my bike spin, the bleed bottle to let go, it was friction fit and spew DOT fluid in a sweet arc across my work space. In their day those brakes were a game changer. Brakes only got better.
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XXX_er
1 year, 2 months ago
My hayes mags sucked dead goats, 3 blown hoses one of them on the roof of a car going to sunpeaks, hayes hydro's caused me to buy Avid BB7's a cable disc that was stronger than a hydro ( who needs modulation ? ) and required zero maintenance
I'm thinking it was 2002 a set of mags that came on a Brodie Hole Shot. In any case I'm triggered any time I read the words Hayes, I mean how does a brake line blow with the bike sitting on top of a car ??
the next sunpeaks trip besides the usual tools I took a hose/ bleed kit/ fluid
Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
@XXX_er, what year was this?
Brand new RockShox Psylo forks used to pop seals and leak oil on the shop floor, I don’t mention it when I’m talking about a RockShox product from the last decade.
Ripbro
1 year, 2 months ago
Dominion A4s have been one of the best upgrades I have made on my bike. My bike came with Guide T (awful), then I tried Code RSC (better), but the Dominons felt like a huge level-up again.
In my riding group, lots of people running code rsc and shimano and halfway down some decents they are shaking their hands out trying to regain strength/feeling in their fingers. Not me, dominions have power for days and you don't have the pull hard to get it. Absolutely love them. However when running them in the wet/snow, the sintered pads make them sound like a freight train.
My wife needs new brakes and I am on the hunt for some A4s or A2s thanks to your review.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Sintered pads howl until they warm up but friction remains good. I played with smaller rotors but in the end, even though the life is much shorter, I prefer semi-metallics.
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prairiedirt
1 year, 2 months ago
I don't recommend Dominions to anyone. Once you have them on one bike, you're kinda screwed and you have to upgrade all your bikes. The Guides and Deores I was actually quite happy with now seem weak and pathetic. Don't do it!
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Hahahaha. I've heard this complaint before.
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cheapondirt
1 year, 2 months ago
This is super irrelevant but I gotta share my excitement. I found some really cheap Dominion calipers on Facebook marketplace, and I am going to bolt them up to my Code RSC levers, when my MTX pads arrive. (Been looking for an excuse to try those ever since NSMB reviewed them.)
The HAM Cominions will boost hydraulic leverage by 20% vs Codes, but not quite match the power of Dominions. In some ways it's the worst of both systems: I'll lose the robust pad rollback and keep the heavier lever throw of Codes. But it's also a much wanted power boost at a low cost to myself, and a fun little project.
Credit where it's due: I first heard about this particular frankenbrake from pb user "FaahkEet"
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Peter Appleton
1 year, 2 months ago
do they come in purple ;-)
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araz
1 year, 2 months ago
https://hayesbicycle.com/products/purple-hayes-dominion-a4-brake-kit
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
I managed to resist until they were sold out.
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ru-tang
1 year, 2 months ago
After looking at the first picture, I thought you were going to be experimenting with 6 caliper brakes.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
I owned a pair of 6-piston Grimeca System 17 brakes at one point!
But no, I like to think I'm always up to something, but stacking brake calipers hadn't occurred to me.
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XXX_er
1 year, 2 months ago
Is that Grimeca the brake that was closed system SO it could heat up and the brakes would stay locked up ? Happened on mnt Desous at WL, half way thru the 3500ft descent the brake locked completely so buddy was pushing the bike down " So Long ", the mechanic in the group said " well I could crack the bleeder to let off some pressure but if I blow it yer fucked " so buddy just kept pushing
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
I’ve never seen a closed-system Grimeca brake. Apart from Magura hydraulic rim brakes the only closed-system hydraulics I’ve played with are Mountain Cycle (Pro-Stop), Sachs, and Hope.
It’s going back two decades, and I can’t compare them to current systems, but I had good experiences with the System-8 (same as first-gen SRAM 4-piston DOT / first-gen Shimano XT 4-piston Mineral Oil), System-12 (juiced-up System-8), and System-17.
———
*edit: after digging into ‘the archives’ (AKA my fuzzy memory), I think the Mountain Cycle FH brakes were actually an open system. I mostly remember the anodized aluminum rotors and huge translucent brake lines.
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XXX_er
1 year, 2 months ago
Yeah this would be 20+ years ago it was definatly an off named ( not hayes or Avid) brand that disappeared and the only name i can think of is Grimeca
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Grimeca made/makes a huge number of brake systems so it’s quite possible they had a closed system. But the System 8/12/17 were not.
ru-tang
1 year, 2 months ago
I'm thinking 6 piston paired with 140 rotors, for extra clearance of course. Or maybe twin 140 rotors, with 4 pistons on each side!
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Skooks
1 year, 2 months ago
What's the availability of brake pads like for the Dominions?. One reason I like Shimano brakes is that almost every bike shop in the world stocks them.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Need pads on a Friday at 4pm? You're screwed. I have a number of friends who should only ride Shimano and SRAM brakes for this reason. Even as common as Magura, Formula, and Hayes are becoming locally as upgrades and on custom builds, it's only the massive OE pads that you can be guaranteed to find in stock everywhere.
I have an extra set of pads for each brake system in our house on hand, so it's never a concern for me. Great point to bring up though.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
I should mention that I also travel with spare pads. I had a set of Shimano brake pads get magically contaminated on a road trip once and it being in the evening on a long weekend the only way I could have checked local shop inventory was a string of B&Es. It doesn't take much to pack pads and there's always somewhere open to buy brake-clean for rotors when you need it.
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Velocipedestrian
1 year, 2 months ago
The exhaust fumes coming out of a diesel will take the fun out of a new set of pads very quickly. +1 to taking spares.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Interesting. I’ve never heard that re. Diesel exhaust being worse for brakes?
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Velocipedestrian
1 year, 2 months ago
Oilier fumes? I'm not a car person, but I remember a buddy who's bike was the closest to the pipe finding his pads were useless when we arrived at the remote road end for a trip. It was his truck, and he declared the cause authoritatively...
Maybe someone who reads the 'pistons' articles with knowledge can illuminate or refute my assertion.
AndrewR
1 year, 2 months ago
And winter screen wash contaminating the front brake on a longer trip if using a vertical storage style of rack.
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ohio
1 year, 2 months ago
Like Andrew says, I always keep a spare set of pads on hand in advance and travel with one or two pairs of spares depending on the trip.
While mentioning travel, it's worth noting that you really do need the Hayes bleed kit, so I travel with that too. My Dominions seem unable to travel without getting air in the lines. No matter how well I (or a shop) bleed them ahead of times, I have never landed with firm brakes. Honestly, it's annoying enough that if travel were a bigger portion of my riding, I'd go back to Code RSCs just to ensure serviceability everywhere. The Dominions are better, but I personally don't find them that much better that it's worth traveling with the extra kit and anxiety.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
That’s an interesting issue. I rarely fly and never fly with my bike so not something I’ve considered one brake versus another.
I do have a solution worth trying though as this is a common complaint with some brake systems Vs. storing bikes vertically (front wheel up) to keep fork seals lubricated.
Before you fly, when you put your rotor spacers or bleed blocks (if you pull pads to fly) into your calipers, use a strap to engage each brake lever.
I won’t guarantee it solves the problem but the success rate is 100% with folks who hang their bikes (the only difference being they have wheels/rotors on Vs. rotor replacements wedged in.
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Skooks
1 year, 2 months ago
I store all of my bikes vertically, and as long as I ride them regularly the brakes are fine. I am 100% convinced that Shimano caliper seals weep a tiny bit over time, and if I leave my spare bike hanging too long (several months at least), I can expect contaminated rotors and air in the lines. I have had this happen many times, as have others I know. Easy solution is just to ride your dam bike! I have never tried the strap idea you mention. I wonder if it would make the problem better or worse?
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
It has been my experience that having the system pressurized (levers engaged) makes a very positive difference both in terms of brake feel and micro-contamination when you pull the bike down.
Riding very regularly is great too.
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XXX_er
1 year, 2 months ago
I store the bike upright as it will be ridden but I transport it or sometimes leave it overnight on its side ( non-deraillier side ) in my truck. I find this does things to the brakes ( shimano or guides ) so the lever go to bar, will need to be pumped up to work, when this happens I know i need to bleed
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Same story, try engaging the brakes (strapping the lever blades to the bar) before putting your bike in the truck.
I’ve heard it said that there’s always one more air bubble in any open hydraulic system.
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XXX_er
1 year, 2 months ago
I will probably do that ^^ , so after watching a bunch of u-toobes on bleeding I had a good success on guides with a syringe at the caliper drawing the fluid in and out until the bubbles stopped
ohio
1 year, 2 months ago
Interesting, I'll give it a shot next time. I do travel with blocks in place but haven't tried strapping/ziptie-ing the levers. I also store my bike vertically and haven't had the same issue ride to ride locally. Not sure what the baggage handlers or the altitude does to the system but it's batting 1.000 on f-ing up my bleeds.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
UPS delivered a test bike this week and my wife watched the driver flip it end-over-end up the (3) stairs rather than carry it… maybe that?!
Hahaha
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srodgers84
1 year, 2 months ago
Hey Andrew. Great write-up. I have been running the A4s now for a few months and absolutely love them so far. Power and modulation for days. My one gripe is the space between the pads and the rotors is so small, I am constantly adjusting them due to rubbing. Thank god for the caliber adjuster screws but even with that fine tune-ability, I find it very difficult to find the happy place where rubbing is eliminated (for more than a couple rides). I am not sure if it is the small throw combined with the thicker rotor but any advice on this would be very appreciated. I have cleaned the pistons, bled the brakes, and trued the rotors but it still seems like the pistons don't retract all that much and minor rubbing is the new norm for me.
Cheers,
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
“Rubbing” like drag that slows your wheel down when you spin it in the stand, or rubbing like a tiny bit of ‘ghost’ noise?
Mountain biking is the only application I know of where folks are obsessed with absolute-zero pad/rotor contact. It’s why we have ServoWave and SwingLink - meh, and meh.
On brakes like the Dominion, Magura MT7, or Formula Cura where the pads sit very close to my rotors I expect a little bit of noise as my rotors are never perfectly straight and true. Actually, same with SRAM as I cheat the pistons in so the pads sit closer. If it’s just noise then I’m good, if it’s actual drag I get out the rotor truing tool as that’s the most likely culprit.
I will say, for all these systems with pads that sit close, I genuinely love and regularly use the Hayes Feel’R Gage both at home and working in shops. I find it especially helpful with Magura 4-piston setups with four individual pads.
(There’s a better version of this tool called ‘The Bryson’ but sadly it’s never made it from Jeff Bryson’s imagination to production)
Hope this is helpful!
Cheers,
AM
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srodgers84
1 year, 2 months ago
I guess the reality is rubbing like a tiny bit 'ghost' noise vs. any real drag. My only other brake experience is with Shimano and SRAM and both never really had this issue (or I lucked out). If this is just the reality of specific brakes, I will just have to live with it as the performance is great. Thanks for clarifying!
Cheers
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Yeah, Shimano (ServoWave) and SRAM (SwingLink) have designed their brakes to have the pads sit much further from the rotor initially so there won’t be any hint of drag.
I argue it’s why both brands brakes are mediocre compared to other systems. SRAM you can get around through cheating the pistons (makes the brakes feel much more positive, but you get a bit of ghost noise when rotors aren’t dead straight) and Shimano you can get around by only riding Shimano brakes, in which case your brain just gets used to them.
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aztech
1 year, 1 month ago
I recently bought a set of the A4's, and couldn't find the answer to both these questions anywhere on the internet before purchasing, so I'm posting them here as in the hope it helps someone else.
1) The thicker Hayes hoses fit Santa Cruz tube-in-tube routing.
2) 2.3mm TRP rotors will run rub-free with new pads in these brakes.
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Paul Bainbridge
1 year ago
Cheers for the confirmation 2.3mm rotors fit!
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momjijimike
1 year, 2 months ago
Thanks for the comparison!
I love Dominion A4 since they released them. Have them on my three bikes(enduro, trail and hardtail), Galfer Pro green pad's with the original disc's are wounderfull.
The only issue I have on all three - if there are breaking bumps and I thouch the lever, the brake point is moving outside. I tried all way's of bleading, but could not get rid of that "phenomenon".
Does anybody has this too?
Any idea what I'm doing wrong?
Thanks!
But still better than every other break I used in the past e.g. Shimano Saint, Sram Code, ...
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
@MJM, do you mean the bite point is changing, or something else? It doesn't sound like anything I've experienced with the Dominions. I've only run the stock pads - sintered metal or semi-metallic.
Cheers!
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momjijimike
1 year, 2 months ago
>do you mean the bite point is changing
Yes, sorry. The bit point is vary through the bumps. It happens on all three Dominions. I rarely happens when the pad's are "newer". The more wear, the more this effect is happen.
>I've only run the stock pads - sintered metal or semi-metallic.
Currently two bikes with the Galfer Pro(prefer them more) and one with T100.
I run on all wheels the Original roto 203mm
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Most brakes can get a little funny at the end of life for the pads. SRAM is the worst in this regard - I don’t find the last ~20% of pad life usable (but their pads are not the worst price wise so that’s a nice trade off).
That said, I’ve never had or heard of a WBP issue with Dominions. Have you tried a little lever-only bleed part way through the pad life?
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JT
1 year, 2 months ago
Bingo. Putting in new pads you reset the cal pistons, pushing the air pocket into the reservoir. As the pads wear, the air pocket can get sucked back into the MC bore as the reservoir adds fluid back into the system. Pretty applicable diagnostic to all hydros is to insert a pad spacer and check engagement. If it firms up, air in the MC.
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Shinook
1 year, 2 months ago
Have you tried cleaning and lubricating the pistons? One downside to these is that, for whatever reason, it seems the pistons get stickier after a while and require some basic cleaning.
The bleed block that comes with them has two sides, one keeps all of the pistons spread apart, the other side is a half block. If you insert the half block, then pump the lever, it will allow you to safely work the pistons out for exposure. You can then run a paper towel or rag around the pistons to clean them off and drip a small amount of DOT fluid onto them to help with lubrication, then push them in and do the other side. Be careful not to pump the lever with the half block removed, though, as the pistons will pop out (that's why the block is designed the way it is, to avoid this). Also wipe off any excess DOT fluid and spray it down when done, as you can contaminate the pads from the back if they absorb any excess.
In my experience, brakes pumping up like this is due to pistons not retracting properly, so I'd try this first.
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Graham Driedger
1 year, 2 months ago
A great sense of practicality from Hayes by making a bleed block for cleaning pistons. However, I feel like there are two trains of thought for de-sticking pistons: 1: lubing with DOT fluid, 2: simply pushing pistons out and scrubbing with a toothbrush & soapy water. Some folks allege lubing pistons with DOT compromises the retraction of piston seals, as they'd slip slightly from their regular point. Does anyone have real-world experience with the degradation of lever feel after lubing their pistons?
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
It’s a four step triage in my mind:
I’ve heard many stories of retraction issues after step 3. But I would take note that the general condition of brakes by the point most people are doing it falls under the category of stitching up a leg wound on someone who’s been decapitated.
I started having retraction issues on my Cura 4 brakes (after a few hundred hours) which were not solved by steps 1-3. They were solved by fresh piston seals in the caliper, which reinforces my love of serviceable calipers.
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momjijimike
1 year, 2 months ago
>In my experience, brakes pumping up like this is due to pistons not retracting properly, so I'd try this first.
Thanks a lot for this!
The pistons are moving free - at the same time. So I had never thoughts about this. I'm going to clean and lubriact them. May it helps :) Thanks!
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Shinook
1 year, 2 months ago
I've been running Dominions since they came out and they are great brakes, but after having run the Radic Kahas and Hope Tech 4 V4s, I find myself wishing the Dominions had a longer lever. The leverage and lighter touch provided by the other two really reduces hand fatigue IMO.
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roil
1 year, 2 months ago
Haven't come across any reviews of the Radics. What did you think?
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Shinook
1 year, 2 months ago
I need more time on them, I put them on just the other day and haven't had a lot of ride time yet. They seem really well made and the lever feel is the smoothest of any brake I've used, but I haven't ridden them enough to offer a good consensus yet.
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Velocipedestrian
1 year, 2 months ago
Do update us (maybe better in the forum), I'd like to hear more about the Radics too.
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Shinook
1 year, 2 months ago
Will do. I'm hoping to start riding on them this weekend, I have to lend that bike out today so I won't get on them personally for a few days.
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Shinook
1 year ago
I posted some thoughts here if you are interested:
https://nsmb.com/forum/forum/gear-4/topic/radic-kaha-thoughts-133049/
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
I’d like to try the new Hope brakes. Their past efforts left me underwhelmed performance wise (very nicely made of course). The Dominions are so beautifully light-action, but I know a few folks swearing by the new Hope.
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Shinook
1 year, 2 months ago
They are great, I have been running them for a few months. I loved the Dominions but I feel like the Hopes are more powerful, fade less, and the lever feel is a lot better. They require less pressure for the same amount of power out of the brake.
I have Dominions on one of my bikes and Hopes on another, when I swap between them, it's a noticeable difference in how hard I have to pull the lever for the same power.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Neat! Looking forward to getting on them at some point.
The one thing I’d say about lever blade feel is that the Reynolds blades for the Dominions are glorious. Hopefully they’re available aftermarket at some point.
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Morgan Heater
1 year, 2 months ago
I can't stand the two syringe method. My wife and daughter's brakes are SRAM, and it is so much more annoying than the hope/shimano bleed bucket style.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
To each their own. Wrenching in a shop I find that the consistency bleeding Hayes, SRAM, or Formula brakes using the two-syringe method makes up for any extra setup time.
With Magura the holy-syringe lever-bleed after the bucket-style method can make a huge difference, so I've thought of trying to make something similar for Shimano.
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Skooks
1 year, 2 months ago
I typically use a syringe on the bleed ports of my Shimano brakes. It makes it easy to vacuum purge the calipers and to push the last few air bubbles from the lever. I used to use a syringe at the lever as well, but I found it doesn't work much better than the bleed cup.
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Morgan Heater
1 year, 2 months ago
It generally takes me three tries with SRAM brakes, and I usually have to over-fill them so that they spray a bunch of fluid every where when I button them up. Hopes and Shimano take me about 10 minutes, and are so much tidier.
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Brian Tuulos
1 year, 2 months ago
A 50g weight penalty for the 4 piston catches my eye. 50g of weight gets you to a larger diameter rotor easily.
I'm curious what's better: a 4pot with a 180mm rotor, or 2pot with a 200mm rotor? Same system weight.
Of course if your a big dude charging steeps then giver with the 4pot.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
I rode both with 8" rotors and the brakes are very comparable - would not have considered downsizing the rotor on the 4-piston setup. If I was choosing between 4pot w/ 180mm and 2pot w/ 203mm I'd take the 2-piston system with the larger rotor.
Another advantage of the 4-piston is there's more pad material, thanks to the pads being longer (not thicker) so the brake pads last longer in my experience.
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Jerry Willows
1 year, 2 months ago
no one on the planet can feel 50 grams on a bike.....
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Agreed. Though a proper weight weenie would point out it’s 100g for both brakes and you only have to do that 4.54x more to drop a pound off your bike.
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Chavit Denninnart
1 year, 2 months ago
It's not 50g for 4 piston vs 2. It's 4 for going A series instead of T series. According to official weight:
T4 weight 257g
T2 weight 254g
A4 weight 310g
A2 weight 303g.
2 vs 4 piston barely weight any different. But if you save money buying A series, it's 50g extra.
With that in mind. It's hard to justify 2 piston brakes in this case. Lever throw is a hair shorter, gap between pads to the rotor is a hair larger. But you lose a bit of power for almost the same weight.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
From the article above:
“Here again, this is not a perfect comparison as the 2-piston Dominions I'm riding have carbon fibre brake levers, a couple of titanium bolts, and let's not forget those aluminum pad backing plates. So rather than a direct comparison, let us consider that 55 grams per wheel is more of a maximum weight savings between the heaviest version, the A4, and the lightest version, the T2.”
I agree, the 4-piston makes more sense for most riders.
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formartha
1 year, 2 months ago
Had the A2 on my Banshee Phantom V3. It’s a nice bake but three things needs to be considered here:
1. Changing pads require to remove the caliper, which is stupid and if someone would ask me, that’s the only reason for making the screw hole caliper adjustment (which, didn’t work for me that well..)
2. It uses specific cone shape bleeding tool. It’s weird and you need to find a brass one to proper seal the bleeding lever.
3. It uses DOT fluid, which from my POV is very bad idea while working on bikes. It might be nice on cars, moto etc, but on bikes it’s too much.
I had Shimano SLX 4 port and 2 pot, had Formula Cura 2 and now Guide (yak!) which will be replaced by TRP and frankly speaking, the Dominion are very overpriced compared to other braking system for the median trail rider.
Take also in account the parts stocking and you might end up in the same decision I made..
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Just some food for thought:
1) Resetting the pistons for new pads on any brake requires removing the brake or removing the wheels, so why does top Vs. bottom loading matter?
Working in a shop, if I’m just doing brake pads (customer says they don’t want other work done) and nothing else I remove the calipers instead of the wheels anyway.
2) I covered bleed fittings in the article above. They don’t have o-rings and need to be tightened into place.
3) There are reasons to choose DOT or mineral oil, and personal preference is certainly a great one. I’d be curious what “on bikes it’s too much” means though?
Advantages of DOT are that it’s standardized and available many places, and it’s relatively easy to clean up spills. Mineral oil doesn’t eat paint and I lets the brake manufacturer adjust fluid properties. I have no beef with anyone who prefers to work on mineral oil brakes for any reason, but it’s good to acknowledge what’s good about DOT too.
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