First Impressions
Fezzari Kings Peak
"Oh no, here he goes again. The old codger trying to justify another dumb bike. Too much rubber, not enough sense. They really oughtta send him out to pasture..."
I CAN HEAR YOU!
Okay, let's get a few things out of the way here.
One, this is not an attempt to convince anyone what to ride. It's more of a discovery trial of my own, an attempt to answer some questions I have about traction, trails, terrain, temptations, temerity and whatever other t-words I can think up as convenience permits.
Two, I don't intend to justify a fat bike in the context of modern bikes on built trails. On any trail that has jumps and berms and speed and all the usual things that we consider to be part of modern mountain biking, a modern mountain bike will flat out smoke a fat bike in just about every conceivable measure.
Three, I probably won't ever ride this in the snow. Yes, I know that a whole lot of people only think of fat bikes in terms of snow riding. They are pretty damn good at getting around in the snow. That is hopefully an accepted fact.
Four, ummm... nevermind. Here, take a peek at the Fezzari Kings Peak. Fezzari is one of a few companies that are beginning to combine contemporary geometry and Very Large Tires (other notable brands tilting in this direction are Rocky Mountain, Pole, and a fistful of small custom builders. Otherwise, things remain generally short and steep in the Land of Fat). By "contemporary", we mean head angles that are 67 degrees or slacker, and reach numbers that are up around 470 or so for a large. No, those numbers don't seem very radical in modern trail bike parlance, but we are talking about fat bikes here, and things are... different.
Oh, right! Four, this will probably end up being something that experienced fat bike riders will read and say something like; "Duh, there's a reason why fat bike geo is still living in the late 1990s. Fat bikes are different, fool. Your skinny tire physics don't belong here."
Which of course only makes me want to scratch that itch even more. And what better way to do that than with a relatively progressive carbon fiber-framed fat bike that only costs $1999 USD? For a whole damn bike. With tires roughly the same size as on my KTM 150XC. Frame only price for this slate gray zombie apocalypse escape machine is $1499 USD, and the eye-popping low price of this test rig is thanks to a winter sale, but still, $1999. Full carbon frame. Direct from Fezzari to your door. Super hands-on order process where you enter a WHOLE LOT of data about your shape and size, and get to upgrade everything from wheels to saddles to seatposts to pedals along the way. Ready to ride straight out of the box. Whether it registers as a gateway drug to a life of fat biking, or an experiment on how far to push the whole N+1 bike ownership paradigm, this particular Kings Peak represents a surprisingly frugal point of entry.
Ahhh, the ol' Tassajara Road gravel trap. Caught a lot of them skinny bicycler types with this trap since last July, let me tell you...
Two things have been driving my fat-curiosity.
First, the Baja Peninsula. I have been puttering around on that 1000-mile long finger of inhospitable ground for about 35 years now, and for the most part, have been pretty content not to ride bikes there. Because, by and large, the riding sucks. It is sandy, rocky, sometimes sandy and rocky together, thorny, scratchy, bleedy, hot, dusty, and generally uncivilized. It's hard going, on the easy days. The hard days just make me want to cry. Then one day I borrowed an elder expats new Surly Krampus for a rip up the arroyo out of Loreto, and the sudden illumination was akin to being struck by lightning. This fat bike, so out of place in the mainstream flow-trail reality up north, was a game changer down there. A landscape that is generally defined by a ride/push ratio almost always heavily skewed toward "push" suddenly became a whole lot more possible to "ride".
Second, the gravel trap I built in my driveway. This was unintentional, and relatively recent. But it was also devastatingly effective at stopping most bicycles dead in their tracks. And it got me thinking about that Krampus down in Baja, and how that led me to head down there with a Specialized FatBoy, and about that time when I tried to tear my face off crashing into a cactus on said Specialized Fatboy, and how I then decided that maybe bikes in Baja were still a bad idea.
But that was a while ago. And the cactus spine that lodged in my eyebrow a few millimeters away from my eyeball eventually worked its way out in a very David Cronenberg sort of way, and I eventually got over that trauma and began thinking that maybe fat biking in Baja deserves some deeper investigation, again.
At this price point, some concessions are bound to be made. Exhibit A.
What, you were expecting XX1 Eagle?
The X-Fusion Manic dropper adds $200 to the price. Or $380 for a Fox Transfer Performance dropper. Or $420 for a Fox Transfer with that fancy Kashima stuff.
Massive Terrene CakeEater 27.5x4.5" tires and Sun Mulefut 80 rims are becoming ubiquitous in fatland these days. You can save a couple pounds by spending as much as an entire other bicycle on a set of HEDs, but this is a solid setup. The brakes? Well, yeah. Did we mention the price?
So, what does $1999 get us?
It gets us that carbon fiber frame, with a 100mm wide bb, 197mm rear hub spacing, and 150mm front spacing. Stock spec is 27.5x4.5" Terrene Cake Eaters spooned onto Sun Mulefut 80 rims, but it'll also fit up to 26x5.0" or 29x3.0" wheels. The frame is absolutely festooned with mounts for bottle cages and racks and... other stuff. There's a quad bolt mount on the downtube, triple mounts on the the top tube and each fork leg. Then there are standard two bolt mounts on the seat tube and under the downtube. As well as what may be some kind of rack mounts on the seatstays. 67 degree head angle, 75 degree seat angle, 470mm reach on a size large, 450mm chainstays and a 1208mm wheelbase.
The SRAM SX drivetrain isn't likely to elicit cheers from the cheap seats, nor will the Clarks brakes. But the wheels are a solid choice, and the Fezzari branded cockpit does the job without invoking any cursing. The non-lock-on WTB grips feel pretty damn nice, actually, but seem like an odd spec given the wet/snowy usual intended home. Maybe I've just become spoiled by lock-on grips. And again, THE PRICE. If I really don't like some of these bits, I'm so far ahead of the money game that I can afford to blow coin on upgrades.
And there will be some upgrades, ohhhh yes...
The REAL reason I wanted to test this bike is because I have been hanging onto this titanium King Cage bomber cage for years now, and have never had a bike to mount it on.
Now, I got options
All kind of options
Ya feel me?
Okay, this is starting to get ridiculous.
But, but...
Thus far, the Kings Peak has seen a limited diet of swampy winter riding on trails that are most charitably described as janky; steep, narrow, strewn with slimy leaves and usually about as much fun to endure as a dental procedure. The Kings Peak, in conditions that generally precluded riding any other kind of bicycle anywhere at all in California, just sort of rumbled around implacably and was, dare I say it, about as much fun as a person could have when it's raining an entire year worth of rain in a couple weeks.
The easiest analogy would be to align it as a pedal powered rock crawler. Nobody even thinks of going crawling with anything smaller than 35" wheels at the bare minimum. That little 22RE motor is gonna have trouble turning them big old meats, so you regear the diffs and slap on some air lockers, but there goes your fuel economy, freeway speed, any semblance of using it as a daily driver. That's fat biking in a nutshell. Forget about going fast, be prepared to learn an entire galaxy of nuance when it comes to tire pressure and things that happen when you load into corners, but revel in the sudden freedom to ride wherever the hell you feel like pointing the front wheel, trail or not.
Speaking of pointing the front wheel... Back at the beginning of this, when I was carping on about progressive geometry? Yeah, I might have some learning to do here. I am not sure if it's a massive amount of extra trail relative to the head angle (which I doubt, because a 51mm offset fork on a 67 degree head angle pencils out to less trail than a lot of bikes I can think of), or some quarter to half-psi incremental something or other in the front tire, but there is a very, profoundly, different feel in the front end when leaning into turns. Im not saying it's good. I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just making a note of it here.
For now, that's about all I gotta say. There's a desolate chunk of empty desert south of Cataviña that I have a date with in a few weeks. Hopefully I'll understand a bit more after that.
Comments
JT
1 year, 2 months ago
Different is right. And that's a good thing. Fat rides are for playing bikes in the woods and on the beaches with friends. Sometimes an appropriate boulder in the sand shows itself to be a perfect equivalent of plywood laid over cinder blocks and an impromptu jump session takes place. Snow/sand angels mandatory for every crash. Sometimes the sky mirrors the water so perfectly with broken overcast throwing in blues, pinks and oranges you haven't seen, at least in a long time. Maybe you and your pals carried a few barley pops and decide it's a perfect time to pop a top and enjoy the scene before continuing on. Or you get a wild hair to really mess up your drivetrain for a bit and ride out into the waters to see how far you can go before the bike inevitably tips you over due to the life preserves-as-wheels you rode into it on. Or you head out on a night ride (minimal to no lights needed due to snow and overcast skies) to a little out of the way spot you know about and have a fire when you get there, roasting a couple sausages and laughing into the winter wind.
You can get into all that on regular MTBs, but the slower nature of porkie tires encourages a mindful slowness, a conversational pace maybe similar to what you had when you were a kid riding your bike with friends, looking for new haunts, new adventures, goofing off more than going off. I pity folx who never get to revisit that sense of wonder and joy.
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kcy4130
1 year, 2 months ago
Dam! That was well written.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Very!
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JT
1 year, 2 months ago
Thanks both, I'm blushing here. Guess that quad americano did its job this morn.
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Vik Banerjee
1 year, 2 months ago
Enjoy the Baja trip Mike. I spent a lot of time on my fatty down there. For beach riding and exploring it's a lot of fun.
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whotookit
1 year, 2 months ago
Welcome to the land of really weird tire dynamics! Take a look at the bottom two graphs below and that may explain some of the feelings you're running into, notably the tendency of a fat tire to not just flop but dive into the direction of turn once it's initiated.
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mrbrett
1 year, 2 months ago
Self steer, in chart format ... I like the visual.
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Metacomet
1 year, 2 months ago
Very cool visual. Those tire pressures do look really high though for just about everything except the 29x2.3. The 26x4 at 15psi would be almost rock hard. I'm imagining the chart would show much larger variations if more realistic/appropriate tire pressures were used for each respective size. Fat tires can self-steer like mad depending on how firm and grippy the terrain is, what your pressures are at, and the tread pattern of the front tire. I've also found some fat tires to be horrendous with self steer and others to be very reasonable and predictable.
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JT
1 year, 2 months ago
Too true. I think I rode 12 psi on my OG Pugs once on a pub crawl and had to let some out. Felt like the wheels were rolling basketballs and trying to dribble me down the street with every crack/crevice/pothole.
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Mike Ferrentino
1 year, 2 months ago
15psi?! Safe to assume that things get weirder as tire pressure drops. I'm down somewhere around 6psi now, and noticing huge differences in ride quality and turn in behavior with .5psi adjustments. Whole lot to learn here. Also, I am realizing that this learning curve will probably apply to each and every tire in a different way.
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Justin White
1 year, 2 months ago
And don't forget that just setting your pressure in the house or garage and then going outside into the cold is going to effect the pressure by multiple half PSIs.
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Justin White
1 year, 2 months ago
I actually did a quick test with 27x2.6 tires in the summer:
With the bike sitting in the July sun for a bit, my infrared thermometer got a surface reading of about ~125F with 19 & 21 psi. A few hours after sitting in the basement, the temp reading dropped to ~70F, and the pressure dropped by ~3 psi to 16 & 18.5. And this tire/rim/tape/sealant/valve combo usually loses only a couple PSI over the course of a week, so over a few hours is was definitely all heat.
A tire with somewhere around 3x the volume is going to drastically change pressure with temp swings from room-temp inside to winter outside. Enjoy the learning!
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JT
1 year, 2 months ago
Trek/Bontrager made a quick ref chart about this exact same thing for fat reference. I downloaded it to my phone. It's that handy. I've been meaning to make a spreadsheet with the ideal gas law formula just so I can be that guy on rides_._ It's winter, I'm a bit injured, so maybe now's the time.
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Cooper Quinn
1 year, 2 months ago
I mean I guess you can use the Ideal Gas Law if you're not into being that precise. ;)
cyclotoine
1 year, 2 months ago
half a PSI can make a huge difference and I use a 15 PSI max dial gauge on my tires. I go as low as 3 in the front but 5-7 is the traction range and 7-9 is trails are firm and I want more speed range. I'm mostly riding on packed snow single track and I run a 120mm bluto (with FAST damper to make it a real fork) on a Pole Taiga. I will say that having progressive geometry makes a huge difference trying to shred these things and am happy my fat bike has geometry close to my trail bike. I hopped on a friend's Surly Wednesday and found it nearly unrideable. I have had the Pole since 2019.
You missed Norco in your mentions for progressive fat bikes. The last bigfoots were just getting there but if you look at the new Bigfoot VLT and assume they'll port that over to the next version of the bigfoot they will be nearly on par with a Pole Taiga (which are unobtainium now anyway).
Thanks for reviewing a fatbike. It's odd that they're all but ignored by mainstream bike media. Here in Canada, outside the PNW most of us have fat bikes for winter riding and groom single track for riding. It's not as good as riding on dirt but it's still mountain biking and it's still fun with a whole different set of challenges and nuances.
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Kyle Smith
1 year, 2 months ago
As an engineer that regularly looks at the same types of plots for automotive tires, this makes me happy.
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nplusplus
9 months ago
do you have a source for that? would love to dig more into where that came from.
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Kos
1 year, 2 months ago
"Three, I probably won't ever ride this in the snow."
This cannot stand.
Visit your NSMB overlords and take a road trip to Fernie.
I'll see you guys there, and I'm buying the first round.
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Agleck7
1 year, 2 months ago
Counter point: For actual fat biking in the snow you don’t need brakes akin to an actual mtb. As long as they sort of work they’re fine.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
@Agleck7, In those cases where power doesn’t matter, they’re like having a Velcro closure instead of a zipper. It works until it dies, many years before the garment is due for retirement.
Same end result. It’s an inevitable net -significant - upgrade cost for anyone that rides their new couple-of-grand bike that needs to be accounted for when discussing bicycle value. And for a few dollars more a much higher quality budget brake system from Tektro, Shimano, or SRAM that would have lasted the life of the bike.
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Metacomet
1 year, 2 months ago
The statement "actual fat biking" is an interesting one, but I think that does a major disservice to what a fatbike can be used and enjoyed for. I've had a fatbike in the stable since 2015 (rocky mountain blizzard, surly ice cream truck, and a RSD Mayor Ti) and I would really stand by the statement that a fatbike can be used for a whole lot more than what you would initially credit them for. I was put in the position of riding my blizzard for about an entire year after my primary bike got stolen, and after an adjustment period it was pretty alarming how well it performed in situations and on rides that I thought it was going to really suck. There are obvious limits, mostly related to speed and roughness, but they are a Mountain Bike in a very pure sense. Brakes and tires and geo and low gearing are Very important on a fatbike because that's about all there is really going on with them. You are buying the entire Fat Bicycle specifically for the big ass tires, and the ability to control them. A Manitou Mastodon is a great upgrade in my opinion as well. If you build a "regular" mountain bike with sub-par brakes and tires, your ability to ride it in more demanding terrain and conditions is going to be severely compromised, and that same exact theme applies to fatbikes. If you will only ever ride it in low angle snow conditions, then brakes wont play as big of a part of your experience, but thats really limiting your use case in the same way it would do to an otherwise perfectly capable hardtail. If you build up a fatbike with options of different good meaty tires, good brakes, a long travel dropper, and a mastodon, and keep an open mind in shit conditions that may or may not include snow and/or wet everything I promise you will find yourself riding some steep and slippery shit in ways you probably hadn't considered before, both up and down.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
The Mastodon is an excellent fork even aside from its Fatbike credentials.
I’ve talked to a pile of folks who bought FatBikes and also have a 29+ wheelset. I considered it briefly in designing my V2 but 2.8” tires are plenty for where I ride usually and I didn’t want the wide Q-factor or limited hub options. At the time though I was trying to sell my family on moving north and I love the one-bike versatility.
That said, I’ve also known a few people who’ve found themselves with nothing but a fatty - with fat tires - for trail riding in decidedly non-snowy conditions and have had great fun with them. It’s all down to mindset.
I did an awesome loop with my new friend Nick in Cumberland last summer on his one bike to do most. A borrowed prototype Blizzard. We had a riot.
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Hi_Im_Will
1 year, 2 months ago
Most fun I've ever had on 2 wheels was a rigid fat bike with a 170mm dropper, Hayes Dominions, rigid fork, and 26x4.8" tires with homemade inserts on one of the janky-steep overgrown sand-dunes that Michigan calls a bike park. Silly grip with handling just sketchy enough to make you giggle.
Not bad on the twisty/sandy trails around here either, there's a couple tight flattish ones where I'm faster on the fatty than on a xc tired hardtail.
Fast flow trails and larger drops are best described as an acquired taste though.
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Metacomet
1 year, 2 months ago
Nice. I made myself some inserts as well using two 27.5 Rimpact Pro's, that I cut, spliced, and then glued them both together. Adds a lot of support and impact protection to the back end. Interested in making another one for the front too, but I think the back is where its more important since its generally more beneficial to run lower pressures on the back for traction and less bounce, and a little higher pressure on the front for handling and it is Much less common to bottom out the front tire on a fatbike.
It is a weird adjustment on flatter flowier terrain just how much more you can lean the bike and trust the grip on a fatbike to keep that momentum rolling. And in slow and steep or even flat chonky tech terrain how they will allow you to just put power down and pick fun and weird and fast lines instead of getting knocked around like a plinko chip in the price is right. Its a very different experience to the modern mtb/eduro/dh bike, but a really f'ing fun one if you have the right mindset, and not expect the thing to be a modern enduro or dh bike on modern enduro and dh trails. You would expect that much to be obvious, but I think that's what a lot of people inherently compare the experience to and come away confused, even without ever riding one.
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Hi_Im_Will
1 year, 2 months ago
I almost made my inserts from 2x rimpact, but got scared off by the price. Ended up using 4" closed cell backing rod instead Super excited that somebody else had the same idea and ran with it though! Notice any big changes in pitch response or effective rear spring rate? For me with the backing rods they added just enough support to go fast at lower pressures, like 5-6psi, and the confidence to do truly stupid stuff without worrying about smashing a wheel. Stuff like hitting a rock garden at full speed, or hucking it onto some roots.
I love leaning the fat bike way over, only way it turns and great training for the skinny. And I still love flying down the flow trail as fast as possible, but fun comes from more from the rumble and the twitchiness than the magic carpet speed.
I think the mindset is kinda like slow car fast vs fast car slow. I'd much rather be sideways at 30mph sliding a lifted Miata around a dirt parking lot than cruising the highway in a Lambo. I'll let you figure out which one is the fatty with a dropper and downhill brakes.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
“I think the mindset is kinda like slow car fast vs fast car slow. I'd much rather be sideways at 30mph sliding a lifted Miata around a dirt parking lot than cruising the highway in a Lambo. I'll let you figure out which one is the fatty with a dropper and downhill brakes.”
Enjoyed this description immensely.
Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Buying a bike for $1999 with Clarks brakes is like buying a rain jacket for $199 but instead of a zipper, the closure is just a long strip of Gorilla Tape.
Oh sure, it works in the store. It’s likely even fine during a little parking lot test. No problem if it just hangs in a closet until the end of days. But, the first time said jacket is actually used in the forest, for its intended or at least advertised purpose, it’s straight home to start researching the cost of adding a zipper. But instead of the jacket being $5 more expensive at purchase time now you’re burning 20% of the initial purchase price just to make the expensive thing you bought useable.
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Kenneth Perras
1 year, 2 months ago
I'm going to guess that, like many other brands over the last 2 spec seasons, Clarks brakes were a substitution decision and not a first choice spec. Both Shimano and Sram leadtimes were such that bikes would have sat idle in a warehouse waiting on brakes if other brands were not considered.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
I was talking to a friend whose employer had similar challenges and went with similar off-spec brakes.
He challenged me something to the effect of “what should we have done, not shipped the bikes? Shipped them with the shit brakes but promised a set of Shimano brakes when they came available?” I don’t know.
I recognize the supply difficulties, but the proof of Covidness will come over the next couple model years when these brakes either evaporate or continue to grab market share. I suspect the latter down to price. In which case the product either needs to be drastically improved or folks who write about ‘budget’ bikes, budget-friendlier bikes at least, need to be calling out the spec.
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Curveball
1 year, 2 months ago
It seems that such a brake choice might be begging for a lawsuit when someone inevitably crashes and gets seriously injured.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
At the least, any customer who bought a bike with these brakes from a shop should expect to get hooked up with a solid discount on replacement brakes and install when they upgrade.
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Merwinn
1 year, 2 months ago
@Curveball, not as cut and dry as that; was it the fault of the brakes, or the lack of maintenance by the rider/owner? Was the rider riding within or outside their capabilities? Etc., etc.
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Mike C
1 year ago
In defense of the Kings Peak...the bike (rain jacket) is totally usable. I bought one when it was on sale and have had not one issue with it in dusty, dry, rocky and even wet conditions. The Clark brakes (gorilla tape) are fine. The carbon frame is awesome. So I'm a dumb ass for making the purchase. I should expect to die from brake failure. I don't need to make any improvements. This bike has one main job - desert riding. It does so flawlessly after hundreds of miles on it. If I want to do technical riding I'll ride one of my other 3 bikes. Most people recognize that fat bikes are purpose built and have inherent limitations. So do all bikes.
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Glenn Bergevin
1 year, 2 months ago
It sucks fat bikes are so strongly associated with boomer bikes, because they're an awesome way to extend your riding season and open up your terrain. Any time of year, my Ice Cream trucks crawls, smashes and grinds through shit that is absolutely unrideable on anything else, and it does it loaded, too. In the dead of winter, it'll blaze a trail through fresh snow, and the local trails triple in size... Because instead of riding next to rivers, streams, ponds, I'm riding on, across and over them. Tons of fun... Not the same as a normal mountain bike, but getting my ICT was one of the best cycling purchases I've ever made.
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Mike Ferrentino
1 year, 2 months ago
Technically speaking, I am not a boomer. More of a cusping gen-X... I hope.
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Justin White
1 year, 2 months ago
For cuspers it's more about mindset than actual birthday. Based on what you've written about yourself, I'd definitely lean towards Gen-X. Too earthy-granola-dirtbag (no offense, it's similar to why I don't consider my wife to be a millennial despite her birth year) to be a true boomer.
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Velocipedestrian
1 year, 2 months ago
Sounds like your wife could be a Xennial.
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Lu Kz
1 year, 2 months ago
Heaven forbid you marry a mill*nnial!
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Lu Kz
1 year, 2 months ago
It's OK, EMTB is ready to take the boomer bike crown and we can get a fat bike resurgence when the hipsters who were 20-30 a decade ago hit the mid-life crisis stage of life and conincide with mountain bike marketing deparments running out of ideas for the next fad.
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AndrewR
1 year, 2 months ago
Rider = 188 cm/ 95 kg (6'2"/ 205 lbs - old money)
2020 Sight ~ 34 lbs = Code RSC running sintered pads on 220 mm HS 2 rotors (or 200 mm TRP R1 rotors @2.3 mm thick)
2020 Optic ~ 32 lbs = Code RSC running sintered pads on 220 mm HS 2 rotor front & 200 mm HS 2 rotor rear
2021 Borealis Crestone (one of the those old school geo fat bikes) ~ 25 lbs = Level T running sintered pads on 180 mm rotors.
As Agleck7 intimated fat biking is different, even the best snow and most aggressive studded tyres doesn't offer up the same level of anchor drop that the best loam and mountain bike tyres. Lower peak speeds and generally less steep and adventurous terrain.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Level brakes for Level ground, but jokes aside the quality difference between a basic Level-T brake and the Clarks is embarrassing.
With maintenance you could ride a Level-T forever if you’re happy with the power. It’s doubtful the Clarks owner will ever need a replacement set of brake pads - either the bike won’t be ridden or the brakes will be dead or replaced before the first set are at the back plates.
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Lu Kz
1 year, 2 months ago
Your thoughts on Radius vs Clarks brakes, Andrew?
I was going to leave an "it could be worse" comment but the worst I've dealt with are Radius, not having seen a Clarks brake come OEM. So I actually don't know which is worse.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
On the radio yesterday the morning show we listen to was talking about food prices and had a ‘would you rather’ sandwich option for lunch. Two slices of bread and:
My kid said, “I think I would have cold pasta.”
To add another system to the worst-option list, the Promax brakes on her 20” wheeled bike didn’t even last a year of grom riding before both calipers were leaking.
Would I rather Clarks, Radius, Alhonga, Promax*?
I’ll take the most basic Tektro or Shimano brake, thanks.
———
*As an aside, I’ve been told all these brakes come out of the same factory/company but have been unable to confirm that information. It would explain a lot.
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Lu Kz
1 year, 2 months ago
To link your two topics and to quote one of my favourite films: "It's a huge shit sandwich and we're all gonna have to take a bite"
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Yeah, if you work in a shop you may not have to taste said sh*t sandwich yourself out on the trail, but it’s inevitable you’re going to get some of it on you and it doesn’t wash out easily.
Justin White
1 year, 2 months ago
Cold pasta ~= Bread & ketchup, kinda...
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Moritz Haager
1 year, 2 months ago
I’m with Major on this one. Given that I live in Edmonton I spend as much time on my Fat bike as on my MTB. My Trek Farley came with SRAM Level brakes. I’ve never ridden Clarks, but I doubt they could be worse. YEG riding is all short steep ups and downs repeated ad nauseum. While its true that you can’t brake as hard on snow as on dirt, I would argue that modulation becomes even more important. I replaced the Levels with a cheapish set of Magura MT30s 4 piston brakes, and the difference is night and day.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
The Level brakes may not have oodles more power but the quality of manufacturing of even a Level T is significantly higher. I wouldn’t have commented if this bike came with Level brakes or the least expensive Shimano or Tektro brakes at $1999.
My mistake was trying to make my point in an (attempted) entertaining way. But that doesn’t take away from the quality issues.
Also, to Mike’s point - fat bikes are being ridden in a wide variety of terrain - it’s like the spread from gravel riding to EWS - so the wide variety of spec and geometry does make sense.
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Blofeld
1 year, 2 months ago
I had a similar setup and thought the Levels with 6” rotors and 27.5 x 4.5 Gnarwhals worked ok for ice and softpack. No power if you actually had traction, but could be modulated at least as well as a Shimano. I’m now on Cura4s and 8” rotors and was thinking I could size down for the winter.
Did the stock Magura fluid freeze or swell up on you in -25 conditions? I haven’t liked what happens to the Formula or Shimano mineral oils when it’s cold.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
Wherever you sit on mineral oil vs. DOT above freezing, DOT brakes win for consistency in the cold. I even notice a difference in our version of ‘cold’ here on the wet coast.
That’s Dominions vs. Formula/Magura/Shimano right now.
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Blofeld
1 year, 2 months ago
True, that’s another point against duct taping your jacket shut!
It’s also worth switching the fluid to Dot 5.1 from Dot 4 for cold weather. The maximum cold viscosity spec for 5.1 is half of 4. It’s a much more significant performance increase than the 6% increase in minimum dry boiling point.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
That is interesting. I usually bleed my own brakes with DOT 4 as the moisture absorbency is lower (more concerned with changes in boiling temp over time than I am in absolute boiling temperature) but that's a win for DOT 5.1 in colder climates.
I'd absolutely run DOT brakes on a Fatbike.
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DadStillRides
1 year, 2 months ago
Great point on the mineral oil brakes in the cold. My og salsa beargrease came with bb7s. I switched them out for a pair of Shimano xts and the performance was so incredibly poor in the coldest conditions (also when the snow rides fastest) I went back to the bb7s. When I got a hardtail with guides, I switched them to the fatty knowing the dot fluid would perform better in the cold and they've been an excellent fit. Not that anyone who doesn't already know would care, but freehub grease selection is also important for cold weather riding.
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mrbrett
1 year, 2 months ago
Mike, I think tubeless tires might help on that bike with general feel and performance. With the same combo of Cake Eater 4.6" tires on Mulefuts I found Fatty Strippers and a healthy quantity of Orange Seal was a good way to get a 100% reliable tubeless setup with minimal headache - as long as you're not switching tires regularly.
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Mike Ferrentino
1 year, 2 months ago
Absolutely agreed. Some light reading about wattage drain and tire-tube drag was pretty eye opening with regard to fat bikes and tubes. They'll be gone pretty soon here.
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JT
1 year, 2 months ago
Hands down has the biggest effect on handling on any fattie, both going and stopping. It reversed my dislike of my old Pugs in one ride in the parking lot of the shop. Suddenly the bike wanted to do stuff eagerly.
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Hi_Im_Will
1 year, 2 months ago
Fatty strippers, or get some caulk/epoxy/goo in a small syringe. Those Mulefuts have a bunch of anodizing drain holes right in the bead seat that make tubeless setup a nightmare if left un-plugged.
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AndrewR
1 year, 2 months ago
My new go-to tubeless set up for Mulefuts:
Use the SunRingle rim strip to plug the holes.
Use Tuck tape (yep the red, tyveking my house stuff) all the way to the edge of the rim bed making sure that you cover the little weld air bleed holes that are in the bead groove in the rim.
Strong light and cheap, stick that in your axiom Keith!!!
And it holds air like a champion.
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Hi_Im_Will
1 year, 2 months ago
I like it, polypropylene makes a lot of sense for a rim tape. Do you have to multiple loops to get enough width?
My favorite right now is DOT tape (super reflective bling!) as the rim strip, with 2 layers PET plater's tape cut to cover full width (lip to lip). And still plug those stupid drain holes. No issues with tire changes, holds air great, seats easy.... Just remember to put extra tape over the spoke nipples if you run an insert, or it will wear thru.
Tried Gorilla tape, and it held air great, but was silly heavy and got messed up every time the tires were taken off. Fatty strippers were even better and lighter, but same story with replacement every time the tires removed. Ringle's stock stuff never held air more than a couple days.
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Lu Kz
1 year, 2 months ago
"a modern mountain bike will flat out smoke a fat bike in just about every conceivable measure"
One thing the modern mountain bike will never take away from fat bikes and plus hardtails on hardpack jump/berm trails is the ease and tendancy to get full-grin two wheel drifts unlike anything else. Once you get some experience with the sense of traction loss to the point it's no longer instant-panic like you might on a regular bike, you can have a just wonderful experience.
Admittedly, the last time I had a substantial time investment in large tires it was a bit before the big tires started getting really good, so maybe the clown aspect is somewhat diminished. I hope not.
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Justin White
1 year, 2 months ago
Holy Q-factor, Batman!
Also, is the rear axle reverse threaded?
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JT
1 year, 2 months ago
Why I went with my Seargent. After a lotta miles, that was causing a buncha knee pain. Also why I wish Rocky would've kept the SuziQ in their line up.
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Mike Ferrentino
1 year, 2 months ago
Yeah, the q-factor is a thing for sure. There's enough clearance that I can probably get the cranks about 20mm closer together, but it'll mean upgrading the bb and cranks to a RaceFace Next since the narrower of the "very wide" bb spindle options isn't available in the 24mm DUB offerings. There may be other options out there but I haven't dug into that quicksand yet.
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Peter Appleton
1 year, 2 months ago
yep and thats why i have the Suzi Q, my knees wouldn't allow the Q factor of wide fatbikes!
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Justin White
1 year, 2 months ago
"I am not sure if it's a massive amount of extra trail relative to the head angle (which I doubt, because a 51mm offset fork on a 67 degree head angle pencils out to less trail than a lot of bikes I can think of)"
What's the overall wheel diameter compared to those trail bikes? Bigger wheel and hence higher axle makes for more ground trail...
Big wide contact patch is going to enhance the caster effect as well, since both sides of the tire are going to want to go the same speed, and turning the bars causes a decent speed differential just within that 4.5 inches of width...
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JT
1 year, 2 months ago
That's the dreaded auto steer you speak of. Thankfully pretty much every modern tire has overcome this by designing the knob spacing properly. Some of the early (and current cheap) tires were notorious for fighting rider input. One of the added bonuses of the 27.5 fat size was getting an elongated contact patch, which decreases auto steer on its own immensely. 26x5 pretty much have equal amounts of grab in both axes and can be a bit of a handful in certain conditions, like hard pack in the middle and loose and deep on the sides. Get off line and it really wants to keep going. A good quick ref on wheel overall diameters can be found here: https://fat-bike.com/2018/04/26-27-5-fat-bike-wheel-comparison/. It's not all encompassing as it doesn't have the current crop of 27.5x4.5 tires on it.
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Mike Ferrentino
1 year, 2 months ago
Actual wheel diameter of the 27.5x4.5 Cake Eaters is very similar in a side by side with a set of 29x2.6 Butchers mounted on 30m wide rims. To further add to the weirdness, there's a Rocky Blizzard downstairs with the exact same wheels as the Fezzari, a degree slacker head angle, and about 20mm more wheelbase. I do not know the fork rake on that bike, so bear that in mind. It feels much more neutral than the Fezzari. I would have thought that being even slacker, it would have felt even more self steer/straightline prone, but it feels lighter in the steering.
Again, I am not clocking this as a negative in any way; it's just a much, much different feel through the bars to the contact patch than I am used to.
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mikesee
1 year, 2 months ago
I'm not gonna call BS per se, but...
...you sure?
There is no tire taller than the 4.5" Cake Eater, anywhere, ever. Except for 32" and 36" stuff.
Even all the 29 x 3" stuff is shorter than that CE.
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Vik Banerjee
1 year, 2 months ago
One thing I find kind of funny is I ride my 2.6" tire MTBs in snow all winter on the BC Coast and they work great. I'll ride past some hiker/runner and they'll often comment "You need a fatbike!" Seems odd when the fact I am riding past them on my non-fatbike would indicate I don't need a fatbike.
I kind of wish I did need a fatbike, but I'd have to work really really really hard to find a use for it that wasn't 95% gratuitous.
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ILikeBikes
1 year, 2 months ago
Thanks for the heavy-rubber content Mike, it's a pleasure to read about how others are discovering the joys of the go-anywhere adventurous aspect of fat bikes. Mine has become my main ride, both from my local weather and for it's stability and safety when riding with my toddler.
Also for 2k who cares about the brakes, easy upgrade. I think it's a great Min/Max example. Carbon frame!
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Martini Omron
1 year, 2 months ago
OOhhhhhhh....always bashing "lower level" products....please only give an opinion if you have ACTUALLY TRIED such exact product...and it is set up correctly. Clarks have regularly won "best in show" for the price/value. I have had mags/slx/xt/xtr and formulas on my racing setup. I am now the proud owner of a kings peak and the Clarks are friggin FINE if not quite GOOD... Much better than past lower tektros and I would rate them equal to deore. SO all you bourgeoisie whiners shut it till you try it...and make it the same model hey?
Xt 8000 were some of the worst brakes I ever had....but I don't bash them...I think they were defective...always a maybe out there.
As to the bike itself. After riding SS and a geared banshee paradox I actually wanted to slow down! The fezz handles all of NC trails from pisgah to the beach with aplomb....it was this, norco or the blizzard for geo....but can't go wrong with any. Smell the roses, give your wrists a break, buy lots of aluminum water bottle bolts.
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Lynx .
1 year, 2 months ago
Mike, great to see a bit of follow up, hope you have a boat load of fun on your trip, can't wait to hear the report when you're back. Curious to see what wheel/tyre combos you try - thinking you need a set of 29" x 40ID to run some 29x3" rubber in dryer conditions. Also would be curious to hear how running the stock 26x5.0" compares say to running 650Bx 3.8", as by my figuring, fairly similar OD, but a bit less squish and width, so maybe an in between, go anywhere most of the time setup.
To everyone else, just ignore Andrew Major, he doesn't seem to get "it" in the least. First because, well it's a carbon framed bike for $1999 with a decent set of wheels, cockpit and all the other parts necessary for a rideable bike, this when a frame only is $1499. So yeah, they could have done better with the brakes, a set of the lowest end Shimano for example, but that's an additional $80US if you're so inclined and for fat biking in it's truest form, not trying to tame the steep and janky of the NS and break KOMs, they're plenty.
As to the dig on Clarkes brakes, as someone who constantly is trying to tell people they need to look at it from the other persons perspective, quite narrow minded - I know loads of people who've happily done "proper" mountain biking using Clarkes and been super happy. Now would they have been happier on a set of Deore, SLX or XTs, most likely, but I highly doubt it's diminished they're enjoyment as much as Andrew would lead you to believe, because most people just don't ride that hard.
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Andrew Major
1 year, 2 months ago
As you’re well aware, I’ve written about and reviewed some of the least expensive brake options from Shimano & Tektro. I’ve plenty of experience with the comparative quality and function of Clarks brakes.
If your experience is different, that’s great. But the “narrow minded” and “need to look at it from other people’s perspective” comments are unwarranted.
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