deniz merdano seaotter 171.jpg
EDITORIAL

Do Dentists Actually Ride Mountain Bikes?

Words Andrew Major
Photos Deniz Merdano
Date May 9, 2022
Reading time

Supporting Trail Sponsors

You're trying to look after your chompers with a routine cleaning and it's time to find a new dental practice. Maybe you just moved to a new town. Maybe you sold your car and are looking to only hire services within a reasonable pedaling distance of your place. Maybe your longtime dentist took on a new partner, bought more fresh equipment than NASA, and suddenly wants to talk to you about a plethora of 'totally necessary' procedures you need to consider right now or else scary things could happen in the distant future. Here in North Vancouver, I discovered there are more outfits looking to clean my teeth than cut my hair. Where does one start?

Before I ask around, or go down the internet search rabbit hole, when I'm looking for a new service provider I begin by checking the sponsorship rolls of my local trail association, the NSMBA. At the very least, it's a list of providers I will consider as a starting point for my search since they support something I love to do. The necessary investment to become a sponsor varies from association to association, but in North Vancouver the minimum buy-in is $500 for a 'Fern-Level' supporter and there are various tranches between that and the $10,000 'Cedar-Level.' And here's the thing, there are sixteen dental practices within walking range and none of them is a sponsor. Within a reasonable distance on my bicycle, I can more than double those options just on Vancouver's North Shore and none of them are sponsors either. Over thirty offices of toothy tradespeople within a self-powered sojourn and not one of them rides bikes or has enough mountain bike customers to consider supporting the trails for the cost of a basic root canal?

deniz merdano seaotter 172.jpg

A delicious Cane Creek Kitsuma Air Shock or XX1 chain will take a bite out of your pocket book. This Forbidden from Sea Otter '22 has been called the 'Ultimate Dentist Bike' but, tired tropes aside, I'm not actually convinced that dentists ride mountain bikes. At least not locally.

Before you call me out for attacking the much-maligned minority of mouth magicians, I also note some other outfits missing from the local trail association sponsor list. The parking lots are packed with fresh Tacomas and the local Toyota dealer can't shift the cost of one underbody anti-rust coating? There are Teslas with bike racks everywhere and they can't charge up the fee to turn on one heated-rear-seat? There are more physio* and sports medicine outfits per square kilometer than there are coffee shops and every mountain biker I know over forty frequents one, but there's none that can kick up the net earnings from one case of tennis elbow? Speaking of coffee shops, none of those are on the local list either.

*I will be mentioning this at my next appointment for my Achilles rehab.

But, I came here looking for a specific service. Out of curiosity, I expanded my search to all the places I've ridden in the last few years. SORCA, no dentists*. WORCA, no dentists. PORCA, nope. TORCA? You guessed it. UROC, notta. Other-TORCA? No, but apparently the delicious local delicatessen can come up with $500, a few hundred grams of cold cuts at a time (they also make memorably great sandwiches). NMBC, no again. PORCA is also a no. The one place I've semi-recently ridden where the trail association has a dental sponsor is the FVMBA. As friendly as they seem, with their sixty-one five-star Google reviews, I'm not willing to make the 117km trip to Irwin Dental in Chilliwack. But thanks for bucking the trend, team.

*EDIT: Diamond Head Dental in Squamish is a long time, and current, supporter of SORCA.

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You can hit the base sponsorship level for any BC trail association for less than the price of an XX1 cassette. And less than the price of a TRP derailleur and shifter combo. And less than the price of a GX carbon crankset and XX1 chain. Actually, these Mallet 11 pedals would also get you there.

Members of the mountain bike community routinely make discretionary spending decisions on goods and services, including dental work. And we are excellent potential customers. Take the NSMBA's 2020 member survey as an example, which was completed by 699 members. 17% of members responding to the survey reported a household income over 250K. 27% in the 150-250K range. 25% in the 100-150K range. Whether it's buying a cortado, new car, cocktails, insurance, shoes, sushi, financial services, an apartment, or avocado toast there's an opportunity to get 'cash back' on every transaction by letting businesses know that you prefer to support companies that support you. Where do you buy your pre-ride coffee and post-ride beer or burgers? Do you see a lot of mountain bikers there? Hikers, runners, and walkers who use the mountain-biker-maintained trails as well? If yes, what a nice and relatively inexpensive opportunity to support their patrons. If no, what a great opportunity to attract some customers like myself who tend to check the trail sponsor list anywhere I go.

And if you own or work for a local business and love mountain biking, how about taking an opportunity to give back, write-off some marketing expenses, create some goodwill, maybe attract some new customers, or even use the process for a team building, and trail building, exercise? With most trail associations it's as easy as clicking a button and providing cash and a logo. Given the general affluence and strong identity of the mountain bike community most anywhere I've visited, it's hard to imagine that a basic sponsorship won't pay for itself anywhere folks attend dirt church.

deniz merdano seaotter 166.jpg

This sweet rig was a Crankbrothers-driven project to raise money for Crisis Support Line. I wanted to mention it because there are lots of companies, bike companies and otherwise, choosing to support great causes. Support for trails is just one place to look when deciding how to vote with your wallet.

I didn't approach this looking to target dentists, I came in looking for somewhere new to go get my teeth cleaned. And I was surprised that of the thirty plus places within my chosen radius, in a market full of mountain bikers, not a single one of them donates to the local trail association. I mean, is there really no truth in the tired trope of 'dentist bikes?' One cleaning isn't going to make or break any tooth-doctor's business but I have to think that if even a tenth of NSMBA members took sponsorship into consideration when making purchasing decisions it would be worth it, public good aside. There are many reasons to choose one service provider over another, or one product over another, and I understand that sponsoring the local trails is but one factor. But if you're getting a quote for new blinds, or gardening, or car service, or accounting, or legal advice, or new glasses, or insurance, or a renovation, why wouldn't you hit your local associations' sponsorship list as part of your selection process?

If you are planning to visit somewhere to go ride, take a couple minutes and check out the local businesses that sponsor the trail network you'll be shredding. You probably won't be getting your taxes, or teeth, done while you're in town but, just from this rabbit hole I'm currently climbing out of, I know my next cup of coffee in Squamish will be at the Sunflower Bakery & Cafe. I'm just guessing that if word got out that this community votes with its wallet there would be a lot more places selling eats that would kick up to support their local association. And if staff ask if you're local or where you heard about the business be sure to pass on that you noticed they sponsor the trails.

And, next time you're under the ultra bright light having sharp stainless steel tools inserted into your mouth and the dentists asks "what's new with you" see if you can manage to say the name of your local trail association without moving your tongue or lips and while "opening just a bit more." I just tried it, and "N.S.M.B.A" is not easy. In the meantime I'm wandering through a world of my friends' confirmation bias trying to choose someone new to scrape my teeth whilst commenting casually on my poor dentition. If you ride the North Shore and have a dentist in your extended ride group, do them a favour and point out that for between an X01 cassette and a GX-level Megatower 2 there are a number of options to sponsor local trails and maybe even pick up some business.

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Comments

Chasmoftheclam
Rich Collumbine
2 weeks ago
+14 Andrew Major Burgess Langshaw Power kcy4130 shenzhe Lynx . Pete Roggeman mnihiser ohio Mammal DancingWithMyself Poz ZigaK Derek Baker Tjaard Breeuwer

I have just got an agreement for my engineering firm to be a $2,500 sponsor to our local Canmore, AB trail building society, CAMBA (https://camba.ca/partnership). Our small office is full of bikers, so I decided to lead the charge and asked our office manager if we could be a sponsor. The response was positive and we are in the midst of signing up. A bonus of the sign up is we are planning a private dig day as a social activity which is great for the trails and building bonds within the team.

TL:DR The desire to support your local trail building society doesn't have to come from the business owner. Speak up within your organization and good things can happen!

Reply

blangshaw
Burgess Langshaw Power
2 weeks ago
+4 Rich Collumbine Andrew Major Pete Roggeman mnihiser

+1 for Richard also being an awesome dude to ride with.

Reply

martyz
Marty Zaleski
2 weeks ago
+3 Andrew Major Rich Collumbine Pete Roggeman

Can confirm. Did not take much convincing at all for my employer, another engineering firm, to adopt a trail through NSMBA. Have been contributing for three years; the benefits most definitely flow both ways.

Reply

AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
0

Awesome! Does your company go and dig as part of the culture/team building as well?

Reply

AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
+1 Rich Collumbine

This is awesome!

Reply

hbelly13
Raymond Epstein
2 weeks ago
+10 Andrew Major cheapondirt Niels Pete Roggeman NealWood Todd Hellinga Lynx . Poz vantanclub Tjaard Breeuwer

I'm nowhere near you, but I have been a practicing general dentist for nearly thirty years and riding mountain bikes for over thirty-five years. My office is a title sponsor for our NICA team (now actually just called the Georgia League after it became too big for NICA, but whatever) and I was an assistant coach last year. All riders that become patients here get the two-wheel deal discount (15%) off all services. The bikes I ride are nice, but not what most would call "dentist bikes" (no electronics, I build/maintain them myself, still buy lots of used stuff). If you ever find yourself in the deep south (Atlanta metro) holla and we'll go for a ride on some of the killer trails around here including ones you'd need to know the secret handshake for. Hahaha! L'Chaim!

Reply

AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
0

This is awesome, Raymond. You’re clearly working to live and living with your community in mind. 

Sounds like you’re a dentist riding hygienist-bikes though?! Hahaha.

Reply

hbelly13
Raymond Epstein
1 week, 6 days ago
+1 Lynx .

Hygienist-bikes...that's funny! I don't know. I am not flashy and prefer durability and simplicity. I would not describe myself as a miser, but I tend to always consider cost to benefit ratios when it comes to bigger ticket discretionary spending. I've ridden a number of bikes that go for more than $10k and could not for the life of me feel like I was getting that much more fun/performance out of them versus something for less. Lastly, I've long said that riders can find exactly what they are looking for significantly less if they are smart shoppers, flexible and patient. I live by the mantra that retail is for schmucks and Christmas shoppers.

Reply

Poz
Poz
2 weeks, 1 day ago
+8 Andrew Major Zero-cool Cr4w Lu Kz Lynx . Pete Roggeman Glenn Peck ohio

Well researched but if you expanded your region you would find that for the North Okanagan Cycling Society (Vernon and area) there are lawyers, accountants, physiotherapists, u-brew wine, Kal tire, the local Toyota (they bought the trail crew trailer) and yes dentists as sponsors! 

Admittedly, it’s a very high ratio of cyclists in this region with a large membership base. But yes, dentists, at least in Vernon, do ride (carbon wonder) bikes!

Reply

AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks, 1 day ago
+1 Poz

I actually haven't ridden in Vernon, other than Silver Star years ago, so that's why it wasn't on my list. That's an awesome array of local business involvement.

Reply

Poz
Poz
2 weeks, 1 day ago
+4 Andrew Major Lu Kz Lynx . Pete Roggeman

I would rather not let the cat out of the bag but it would be worth the trip! Ss is good but so much more here is arguably better. 

When I moved here 6 years ago my first day experience was such: 

- next door neighbour heading for a ride, “join me tomorrow” 

- TELUS installer “nice bike, you’ll like it here”

- 1 out of every 3 vehicles had a bike or a rack.

Reply

AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks, 1 day ago
+1 Poz

That’s rad! Community matters. It’s one of the reasons I love visiting Cumberland.

I’ll add Vernon to my visit list. Maybe even this summer if I get up to speed.

Reply

Poz
Poz
2 weeks, 1 day ago
+1 Andrew Major

Get yourself well and come out. Shoot me an IM if you do.

Reply

AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
+1 Lu Kz

Cheers!

———

For anyone else thinking of making the trip here’s the link to the North Okanagan Cycling Society (NOCS). Sponsors scroll down at the bottom of the main page.

Jotegir
Lu Kz
2 weeks ago
+3 Andrew Major Poz Pete Roggeman

As someone who doesn't live in Vernon but nearby.... It's incredible. Trails are fantastic and the people are so nice and people seem genuinely excited about bikes. Two of the bikes I ride are fairly unique looking, so I like to use them as a "friendly bike nerd" litmus test. Vernon is one of the two communities where people ask me about them at trailheads and crossroads all the time. In my community, I'm the only friendly bike nerd stopping people at trailheads to ask about their cool rides! Haha.

Reply

AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
+1 Lu Kz

That’s a heck of an endorsement! 

———

“Fairly unique” like seeing a Bugatti in a parking lot, or “fairly unique” like the Frankenstein monster? 

I always stop to chat with the guy with the random assembly of parts on a decade old Enduro he stripped and polished by hand. Especially if they’re riding with someone riding the former.

Reply

Jotegir
Lu Kz
2 weeks ago
+1 Andrew Major

Well, one's a basement painted 2018 Instinct (don't worry, I set up excellent ventilation) and the other's a Daambuilt. So somewhere in between?

Reply

Jotegir
Lu Kz
2 weeks ago
+5 Andrew Major cheapondirt Pete Roggeman Mammal gubbinalia

@Andrew

I stripped straight to raw carbon/alloy. I used a two part primer and a two part clear, and mixed a customish colour for the main part of the frame. I'd say it went pretty well. It was the culmination of about a two year effort to learn this stuff properly, between building out enough ventilation to feel safe (including the use of math), learning a graphical software well enough to make my own decals, learning how this stuff operates, practice pieces, and periodic motivation loss. Admittedly, I shelled out for some ANI R-160 spray guns for my already existing compressor, so technically speaking, it's not a rattle can job. Not that I have anything against rattle cans, there's a time and a place. You can mix rattle cans and spray guns for some interesting results

But I've been riding the result for a while now and it's been great. Certainly a lot I'd do differently - I'd remask between stages, change the timing of my layers, not screw up the clear as much (correcting clear was a lot of work!), for starters. I did a wall-art old broken Trek frame that came out much nicer since, but it isn't going to be ridden. 

Next on deck is my Daambuilt. It'll get a see through canary yellow over the raw steel with metallic blue highlights - gotta keep that anno blue link. My Daambuild has a clock on the build as I foolishly signed up for an enduro in the fall (and obviously I want to ride the bike during the season) and I don't own another appropriate bike.  Then maybe my Aurum over winter.

AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
+1 Bern

Now I’m curious… I’ve seen rattle-can jobs that were obvious rattle-can jobs and I’ve seen some basement-brilliance. 

Did you strip first or prime? How’d it go?

AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
+1 Lu Kz

@Lu Kz,

That turned out rad! Respect. I’ve painted a few things but nothing I’d post photos of… future project goals maybe.

michel77
Michel Vis
2 weeks, 1 day ago
+5 Andrew Major mrbrett Cr4w Lu Kz Pete Roggeman

Very enjoyable read, well researched, well written and fun while still conveying an important message. Support those who support you and your activities. Kudos!

Edit: just noticed this was published May 9 (i.e. tomorrow), I'm commenting way early!

Reply

AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks, 1 day ago
+1 Bern

You’re from the future!?! 

———

Thank you. A personal goal this year is to mention it to a few places that myself and a bunch of other (obvious) mountain bikers frequent. This is just a shotgun start.

Reply

tashi
tashi
2 weeks ago
-2 Lynx . Bern

Partially researched I’d say. 

Not every sponsorship ends up being listed on a website somewhere. I bet if he picked up the phone and talked to some dentists he’d find a few who sponsor the all important social need that is mountain biking.

Reply

AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
+3 Marc Rossi Lu Kz Bern

So your burden of research for this piece would have been calling all the dentists in town to ask if they sponsor their local trail association?

Reply

tashi
tashi
2 weeks ago
-4 Tim Lane Marc Rossi william bailey Mammal Lynx . Bern

Yes, you should talk to the people that you’re writing about.

I wouldn’t make the assumption that not being listed means that sponsorship isn’t taking place. 

You’re the journalist, you’re the one responsible for the research.  Your burden is to do whatever it takes to make a well-supported position.

Reply

AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
+8 Marc Rossi shenzhe Mammal Velocipedestrian NealWood Lynx . Poz Bern

I’m not a journalist and don’t pretend to be one. I have huge respect for the profession.

At best, I’m a part time bike industry hack trying to entertain/inform folks through editorial and the odd bit of review content on a website about mountain biking.

———

I went through all the currently published public sponsorship rolls of places I’ve recently ridden to craft a piece encouraging riders to shop businesses that support their trail association and businesses frequented or employing mountain bikers to sign up.

Motivated initially by the fact I need a new dentist.

This is the information any rider would have in making the same type of purchasing decision - or collecting information to help make a purchasing decision - that I’m talking about here.

I don’t think in this context non-publicized information is generally relevant, if you disagree I can only try to understand your viewpoint.

Reply

AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
+2 Mammal Bern

@tashi

I made certain that the NSMBA sponsorship list is current vis-a-vis dentists before I submitted this piece.

If you know of a local dentist who is contributing to the trails (in addition to other good works they do) - if your information is contrary or complimentary to mine - feel encouraged to link to them or send me a message and I’ll follow up with them. I’m still no further along in terms of finding someone to clean my teeth.

tashi
tashi
2 weeks ago
0 Andrew Major Jimothy.benson blackhat Bern

If you actually want finding a dentist I’ve had a lot of work done and gone through a few so here ya go:

Go to one within walking distance as that is important to you. 

Find one that doesn’t upsell. 

Find one that fixes teeth of poor people or teaches. 

Find one that’s not nearing retirement age.

Find one that likes to deal with kids if you have em.

Their contribution to our hobby and your job is pretty irrelevant in comparison the the previous three factors.

I don’t live near you so I can’t give you any recommendations.

tashi
tashi
2 weeks ago
-4 Andrew Major Tim Lane Marc Rossi william bailey Lynx . Mammal blackhat Bern

It’s your conclusion that they don’t contribute that I take exception to. 

If you said that no one publicized their contribution I wouldn’t have anything to say. 

You mention 14 dentist offices within walking distance. 14 phone calls don’t seem like much of a “burden” to me.

cheapondirt
cheapondirt
2 weeks ago
+4 Marc Rossi Lynx . Velocipedestrian Bern

The whole point of a business sponsoring anything is advertising to a specific demographic. Sponsors are literally buying a chance to be listed. If it's not listed - it never happened.

Reply

MarcR
Marc Rossi
2 weeks ago
+4 Andrew Major Lynx . Mammal Bern

Agreed. If a business decides to step up and sponsor something they are putting their name on it and hopefully that turns into a win-win situation. And if a business owner makes an anonymous personal contribution then that’s great as well but it’s anonymous and that was their choice.

Voting with our dollars and how we do it is up to each of us. If somebody wants to telephone a few dozen places and interrogate the front desk staff about trail donations of their boss, that’s their business.

cheapondirt
cheapondirt
2 weeks ago
+2 Lynx . Bern

@tashi,

Business is crass. Only a sole proprietorship has the option to function as an individual and be altruistic. Because then it is literally an individual's choice.

I don't think bigger businesses, even partnerships, can give in the same capacity because there is a responsibility to the other stakeholder(s). When a business buys a trail sponsorship, likely with a poor ROI, that's because someone wants to give but has to justify the giving. "We're going to get our logo on a sign at the trailhead! This is good for the business."

But I am not a business owner, just a bit of a cynic. If you regularly commit anonymous philanthropy through your business, I will have learned something about business today.

tashi
tashi
1 week, 3 days ago
0

Business isn’t inherently crass. Business CAN be crass. 

Business is people, they choose to be crass or not.

tashi
tashi
2 weeks ago
-3 Lynx . blackhat Bern

No, that’s not the whole point.  Most small businesses are helping because they can, not because it’s a valuable marketing tool  

The business that you see are the ones that have done something AND made a point of promoting that fact. 

Most of us just help out and get on with it. Leveraging for marketing purposes is crass to me so I don’t do it unless I can extend the charity’s reach.

pete@nsmb.com
Pete Roggeman
2 weeks ago
+2 Lynx . Bern

You may be conflating the difference between writing about an individual (very important to give opportunity for comment) and writing about a group as a whole (less important, especially for a tongue-in-cheek premise such as Andrew is making here that nobody is going to label as 'harmful to dentists'), as well as the difference between sponsorship and (anonymous) donations. 

If you really think Andrew's article would have been helped out by calling all the dentists on the shore, I'd invite you to understand that would mean far fewer articles from Andrew since he'd either be spending his time calling dental offices instead of writing, wrenching, or riding, or not writing pieces like this at all. 

Yes, do call out times when a standard could be higher but no, don't be unrealistic. This is not a take down of dentists, and if there are dentists in any of the regions mentioned that want to stick their hand up about the unseen support of mountain biking they've provided that was so unfairly missed here, they're more than welcome to sound off or get in touch so we can set the record straight. If we back up and look at the larger picture, I think it's pretty obvious here.

Reply

AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
+3 Mammal Lynx . Bern

@tashi,

I think I’m missing something? Sorry. 

I confirmed with the trail association that their current sponsorship list is correct in terms of there being no dental offices sponsoring the association. 

I don’t understand what other information I’d be looking for in a phone call? Like their business has made anonymous donations or they’ve made personal donations?

I also don’t really see how that’s pertinent in terms of other riders using that information?

AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
1 week, 3 days ago
+1 Bern

@Tashi, like I said, my initial goal was in finding a new dentist so I checked before I even started writing this that there was not one sponsoring my local trail association. I did not check if other association rolls were current except to confirm that Irwin in Chilliwack is still a sponsor because I wanted to give them a shout-out (thanks Irwin). 

I have seen trail associations list individual donors (not members, but folks who donate additional sums) but I've never seen anyone list occupation with that. Not saying it doesn't happen but certain locally there's no way for me to determine through an internet search if a specific dentist has given money to the NSMBA privately, or even if any of the dentists do ride bikes. 

I hope that the larger themes of supporting your community (it's $500) and considering supporting businesses that support your community registered with lots of people. It's more than a marketing opportunity in my mind, but I'm a bit of a romantic that way. 

I haven't picked a dentist yet, but it'll be an owner/operator within riding distance of my place.

tashi
tashi
1 week, 3 days ago
-1 Bern

@andrew: If you verified that the sponsorships were up to date than that sounds adequate. I guess I missed that in your article, but I was left with the impression that you just checked their pages, making the assumption that not being listed means that they don’t contribute. 

Do any of the trail orgs you looked at list individual donors and their occupation?  Dentists may be making personal donations as well and you’d have no idea unless their info is listed.

Although your last line makes it a bit more clear what the thrust of this article is: they’re missing a marketing opportunity. Up to them if that’s valuable or not really, but somehow I doubt it.

tashi
tashi
2 weeks ago
-7 Cooper Quinn NealWood Lynx . blackhat PowellRiviera Morgan Heater Bern

14 phone calls. 

That’s what it would have taken to not call out the easily identified 14 dentists (probably sole proprietors) he says don’t sponsor trails.

cheapondirt
cheapondirt
2 weeks, 1 day ago
+3 Andrew Major Zero-cool Lynx .

How civic minded are you really likely to be if your business model involves charging whatever you want to people who have a pressing physical need? I mean I'm as capitalistic as the next guy, and grateful for the skilled services they provide, but they have you over the barrel in there. "If you don't do this expensive procedure," they're able to truthfully tell you, "it'll be a more expensive, invasive, and painful one next year." Ok, here's all my money then.

Reply

pete@nsmb.com
Pete Roggeman
2 weeks ago
+3 cheapondirt Kos Lynx .

I'll stick my hand up in defense of dentists here, because I grew up with a great one (who, incidentally, skied hard and often and also served as the coroner in Whistler for years) and have had another great one since then. Another one I know of is a serious triathlete. Someone I went to school with became one, and he was a great dude - hearing about what he had to go through/achieve to get accepted into dental school left me with a new appreciation for the demands placed on those who make it through.

Like most professions, dentists are probably at least partially misunderstood. Resenting the fact that they make good money seems pointless. It's very hard to become one, and I'm sure it costs a lot of money to run a dental practice - some of the modern machinery they use is high tech and expensive, hygienists have to be paid, insurance must be sky high, and let's not forget that dentists are freakin' mouth surgeons.

I do think that calling them 'dentist bikes' is at least a little bit unfair, but it's also probably not hurting many feelings, so I'm as guilty as anyone.

I don't think any of these things make for fair points upon which to judge the civic-mindedness of dentists as a whole, though, and now that I've looked back and thought about it, it appears as though most of the dentists I've known were uncommonly swell people.

Reply

AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks, 1 day ago
+2 cheapondirt Marc Rossi

I feel like I’ve been in at least similar shoes (having someone over a barrel) working on bikes. Holding the last widget-A in the country or wrenching on a bike the night before a big ride or trip or event and I know how I act, so I have to assume there are tooth techs out there operating under similar principles - doing what needs to be done and charging a fair price.

And, I’ve certainly had dentists in the past who I felt were upfront about options and only proposed work that was necessary. I feel like, doubling down on my piece, those are also the sort of dentists who would kick $500 to the trails so that would make them even more my starting point if I saw they supported the trails.

Reply

cheapondirt
cheapondirt
2 weeks, 1 day ago
+1 Andrew Major

Yes, it's not fair to tar and feather them all with the same broad brush. I was actually going to a pretty good one, switched for a more convenient location (it's very close but more importantly, open Saturdays!) and feel much more cynical about the way the new place operates. I'm sure the ratio of fair to extortionate dentists is the same as in any other profession but it is easy to resent the volume of money flowing through those chairs.

Reply

Shortyesquire
Andrew Collins
2 weeks ago
+2 cheapondirt Raymond Epstein

There is a long and inglorious list of people who get paid a lot of money to do far less worthwhile jobs then dentists. This includes but is not limited to:

-Real estate agents;

-Lobbyists;

-Marketers;

-Most of the finance industry;

-Record company execs etc etc etc etc.

In other words there are much easier ways to make filthy lucre then slogging through a decade or more of study to make sure people can chew their own food in old age.

Reply

cheapondirt
cheapondirt
2 weeks ago
+1 Lynx .

You're absolutely right, dentists deserve their pay. I just don't often swipe my card for a $500+ payment for a half hour visit anywhere else. Except realtors, the high paying jobs you listed aren't directly public-facing.

Notary bike?!

Reply

AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
+1 Lynx .

The crazy thing is that most those services are represented on the local trail association sponsor roll. Plus an automotive shop that’s apparently quite awesome. Oh, and an eye doctor. 

Some of those services I already have go-to providers for, but, like a tooth tech, if I wanted to make a change it would a good place to start. 

Actually a piece of serendipitous sponsor support is Sophos. I use their product not because they support the NSMBA but because I buy computers from the store that’s walking distance from my place and they recommended it. But learning they also support the trails is a sweet bonus.

Reply

kos
Kos
2 weeks ago
+3 Andrew Major Lynx . Pete Roggeman

We have great dental support for our local trail organization, with two or three making nice contributions every year, and often more frequently.

Come on down to Montana, and we'll point you in the right direction!

Reply

AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
0

Feel encouraged to post a link to the associations sponsors page. I know there are a few in Montana.

I found SWMMBA (pronounced Swim-ba?).

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kos
Kos
2 weeks ago
+2 Andrew Major Pete Roggeman

Here you go: https://www.flatheadamb.org/

Great group of folks.

Oops, more specific to your question: https://www.flatheadamb.org/spencer-mountain.html

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
+2 Sven Luebke Kos

Cool! And right on the front page - Smile Dental.

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kos
Kos
1 week, 5 days ago
0

Also Montana Dental Works. Owner and his wife are passionate about the sport (and fast as hell) and give generously of their time and $$$.

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monsieurgage
Gage Wright
2 weeks ago
+3 Andrew Major Lynx . Pete Roggeman

Maybe the article should looks at just numbers of those who ride and the cost to budget comparison of local builders (rogue and sanctioned) to understand the argument.  I would love to see detailed cost breakdowns of all trail systems in order for the public to truly see how much goes into the network of trails that make the North Shore and other places so special.  The other side of the coin is getting hard numbers of trail network users (sanctioned and rogue).

In the end I believe the argument by Andrew to be, there are more people benefiting from than giving to the sport/community of mountain biking.  Underlying this generalization is the premise that many more people can afford to give back to the trails; more precisely the builders, organizers and trail organizations, than actually do. 

The content, re. dentist, is a bit of tongue and cheek cliche.  The broader issue is the relevant reality to Andrew's satire.

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
+1 Lynx .

In the end, I really am looking for a new dentist and would have loved to start by checking out a few that kick in to the local trail association. A side benefit of that - on top of giving me a starting point in a concentrated field - is that it presents a tie to a community (riders) which honestly makes me more comfortable. 

But, big picture. I think if mountain bikers put more thought into checking out who sponsors the trails and companies run by, staffed by, or/and frequented by mountain bikers kicked in to sponsor their local org it would be a triple-win. The third win being the trails, or course.

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phil-szczepaniak
Phil Szczepaniak
2 weeks ago
+2 Andrew Major Pete Roggeman

Not sure you dug deep enough... Diamond Head Dental in Squamish has sponsored countless toonies over the 8 years I've been in town. And dentist CK is a madman on a bike. And on top of that - his bikes actually aren't very dentisty!

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
+1 Lynx .

That’s awesome that they sponsored events in the past. I’d guess from experiences having this same conversation with various people that we could debate all day how many years back is relevant and all we’d end up agreeing on is that we’d both wasted our day.

SORCA has an extensive list of sponsors including event sponsors and I don’t see any dental firm there. To my points about mountain bikers shopping trail association sponsors and trail association sponsors getting shopped, I think the current posted list is the most relevant information.

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pete@nsmb.com
Pete Roggeman
2 weeks ago
+3 Andrew Major Lynx . Todd Hellinga

The other side to this discussion: if you're any type of organization that relies upon donations or sponsorship, it behooves you to make sure you properly recognize those donors and partners so they feel recognized and appreciated, making them more likely to stick around.

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
+1 Lynx .

I think if more mountain bikers were vocal about using the sponsorship rolls of their local trail as part of their purchasing decisions this would be a higher priority for sponsors and associations.

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pete@nsmb.com
Pete Roggeman
1 week, 6 days ago
0

Chicken or Egg?

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phil-szczepaniak
Phil Szczepaniak
2 weeks ago
+2 Andrew Major Todd Hellinga

I see! I wonder if they aren't into backing the massive SORCA Socials and Cincos of today. It's pretty insane with sometimes upwards of 300 people showing up. I am a bit of a social butterfly and I now find them overwhelming. 

To your other point in the article  - I 100% agree - my decisions for retailers and services are based on their support for the local trail association!

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trumpstinyhands
trumpstinyhands
2 weeks ago
+2 Andrew Major Todd Hellinga

From what I can gather, it's names out of a hat when it comes to who ends up getting to sponsor a SORCA event? Obviously though you have to put your name in the hat....

I'm not a social butterfly so when I go to my one token SORCA Social a year, I just end up standing around and thinking 'why am I here', and sneak out when no-ones looking ha ha.

Another way of looking at this, is to find the businesses owners and / or staff who actually go out and work on the trails? It's 'easy' to throw money at something in return for a name on a website and the chance to make more money, but if you really care, you'd show up and get your hands dirty.

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phil-szczepaniak
Phil Szczepaniak
2 weeks ago
+1 Andrew Major

Agree with that 100% - they started a 'Trail Champs' program but it seems to have flatlined - where businesses can look after a trail. 

https://sorca.ca/build/trail-champs

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trumpstinyhands
trumpstinyhands
2 weeks ago
+1 Andrew Major

From what I tell, it's hard for business to 'officially' support one trail due to land ownership issues. For all the trails here, there's only about 3 official ones :D (and IIRC you are building one at the moment ;) ). A buddy was hoping that his employer would take on a certain trail, but it's on SN land so they had to commit to another one (CL). I know my employer is interested in this but will have similar hurdles. Sounds like we might just go down another route.

phil-szczepaniak
Phil Szczepaniak
2 weeks ago
+1 Andrew Major

Yes indeed! However I would think anything listed on the government database REC layer would be fair game? So that would mean more than 3... but yes I see your point. Many 'non-legitimate' trails. I guess we could have rogue sponsors for rogue trails! ;)

AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
+1 Todd Hellinga

Someone with a bigger brain than me needs to tackle the whole concept of “rogue trails” because I don’t get it.

We’re generally talking about completely reversible temporary modifications to second and third growth front country forests on the edge of urban areas. 

Imagine how much more great terrain we could have if everyone recognized that all trails are temporary?!

Anyway, I always enjoy the asides in the comments. Thanks for supporting trails however you do it!

FlipFantasia
Todd Hellinga
2 weeks ago
+2 Andrew Major Pete Roggeman

to what Phil said, our small business historically hosted toonies/cincos in both Squamish and Whistler but due to staffing/workloads/turnout size, we just can't realistically do it anymore. We have made monetary donations though to all 3 clubs in our corridor and in kind services where we can to support permitting requirements and such for trail development, and we do sponsor trail nights which we feel is great use of our resources currently.

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dsc
dsc
2 weeks ago
+2 Andrew Major 4Runner1

My wife is a dentist (spouses-of-dentists-bikes aren't nearly as nice, in case you were wondering), and in the US at least, local independent dentist offices are being bought by corporate conglomerates at an astonishing rate - the majority are now under this ownership model. It's very similar to what you've written elsewhere about bike shops. This could have something to do with many of them being less plugged into the local scene, causes, etc. Those type of sponsorships might not fit with the national corporation's bottom line, or even be on their radar.

In the activities/causes that are analogous in our area (mountain biking isn't a big thing here), the office my wife works at (which is still independently owned) does public sponsorships, but also gives discounted/free services to lots of participants and pros in those areas. I know this type of "invisible" support doesn't help someone who's looking for a dentist that aligns with their passions, but there are other ways that they contribute to the community.

(I know the themes you're getting at here extend beyond dentists, but I figured I'd throw in a little more context for the tooth docs.)

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
0

That’s very interesting re. dental corporations. I hadn’t even considered it as all my dentists have been family practices and I don't know if that’s a trend here as well. 

Certainly I prefer my dentists like I prefer my bike shops - owner operated. To each their own, of course. 

I wonder if it’s a trend with every industry? Certainly I am alarmed at how fast things are changing in the local IBD landscape.

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4Runner1
4Runner1
2 weeks ago
0

Yep. My wife is a CDA here in Nanaimo. A large percentage of the local dentist practices have been bought by (wait for it) DENTAL CORP (duh duh duuuuh).

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
0

Interesting indeed. Does Dental Corp clearly identify ownership or do the practices maintain their independent dental office branding?

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4Runner1
4Runner1
2 weeks ago
0

So far the branding has remained independent.

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
+1 4Runner1

That’s crazy to me. Thanks for sharing.

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Timer
Timer
2 weeks ago
+2 cheapondirt Andrew Major

Am i missing something about the NSMBA member income statistics? Is it true that 44% of NSMBA members are in the top 5% of households by income?

I know MTB isn't a cheap sport, but i didn't think it was that much of a wealthy-elite kind of sport.

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cheapondirt
cheapondirt
2 weeks ago
+1 Andrew Major

When that other website did a big survey the results were also eye opening. The new golf, indeed.

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pete@nsmb.com
Pete Roggeman
2 weeks ago
+1 cheapondirt

Actually I can easily argue that MTB can be way more expensive than golf, depending on how you approach either one. 

Although you pay to golf, you don't have to pay a lot (play at public or municipally-owned courses) or else there are courses in a lot of places you can join and play as much as you want for as little as 2-3k per year. You can spend a fortune on clubs, but you don't need to - a fully custom fit bag of clubs can be had for 2-3k as well, and they can last you 5 years - or 10 - and won't be nearly as outdated as a 10 year old bike would be. After that, consumables are minimal: balls, gloves, and tees for a year for most people wouldn't cost more than two tires, and you certainly don't need to spend a lot on apparel to play at ANY course.

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Timer
Timer
2 weeks ago
0

At least it goes a long way towards explaining why >>10k bikes are selling like hotcakes and 4k bikes are considered cheap entry level.

BTW, this also means that a large part of NSMBA earns more than dentists do.

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
1 week, 6 days ago
+1 Timer

The median household income in North Vancouver is somewhere between $100,000-to-$110,000 depending on whose numbers you use. Everything I can find is pre-pandemic. Average household net-worth is closer to a million bucks ($850,000-to-$1,000,000) again depending on whose numbers you use.

Clearly not scientific as I’m not including West Van mountain bikers (higher median income and net-worth) and NSMBA members from outside the Shore but I still think it paints a picture when the median income for BC is some 20k less and household net-worth is less than half. 

Anyway, back to NSMBA survey, again of a limited (~700) number of members and also more recent numbers, so I wouldn’t know where to begin calculating margin of error but let’s say it’s +/- 10% or even a bit higher. We’re talking about (with a margin of error) some 70% of NSMBA members being from households at or above the median income.

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vantanclub
vantanclub
1 week, 5 days ago
+1 Andrew Major

Be careful with the household income too. I know that I filled out $250k+, but I also live in a household of 4 people in their 30's that are all working in Vancouver (two couples living together). When adding that many incomes together it's quick to build. 

We definitely don't have dentist money.

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
1 week, 5 days ago
0

Interesting, I would have thought of that as two households sharing a house. But great point again looking at statistics without a lot of background information to go along with them. It certainly isn't a long-form census.

vantanclub
vantanclub
1 week, 5 days ago
+1 Andrew Major

According to the Census definition, a household is "people who occupy a single housing unit, regardless of their relationship to one another".

I can definitely see how the sport attracts higher incomes just because of the entry costs. When you can go hiking, climbing, running for a fraction of the cost.

Anecdotally, last weekend helped someone on a 2022 Specialized S-works ebike that couldn't make it down bobsled, so there is definitely money on the trails.

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
1 week, 5 days ago
0

I was thinking about the census more this morning. I've lived in the same apartment now for longer than I've lived anywhere in my life, so of course I don't have any tenants or anything - I just fill it out as I expect my neighbours do and away I go. 

But I know people with multiple suites in their houses who've had tenants ranging from a four-person family to individuals and from folks working part-time while they have a 'ski and bike year' to folks making more in a year than they do. You'd think with how many folks have one or more income suites that would add quite a degree of uncertainty to those numbers?

AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
1 week, 6 days ago
+1 Timer

BTW, this also means that a large part of NSMBA earns more than dentists do.

NSMBA numbers are household income. 

Average dentist pre-tax income numbers vary wildly but looks like 150-200k is a safe range for discussion.

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Timer
Timer
1 week, 6 days ago
0

Of course, i was only counting the >250k group as "more than dentists", and there is quite some leeway in that with spouse income. What i am getting at here, is that a dentist would not necessarily be a high-earner among BC mountain bikers.

As for the rest of the numbers, its interesting to see how much of an outlier North Van seems to be when compared with the national average.

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pete@nsmb.com
Pete Roggeman
1 week, 6 days ago
+1 Timer

There's a lot of hidden wealth on the North Shore and other places where conspicuous consumption is slightly less obvious due to social norms or so-called Canadian modesty. All those Tacomas and F-150s rolling around are more expensive than the average BMW. Those dead birds embroidered on everyone's jackets represent a lot of dollars - especially when multiplied across a whole family, even if bought at pro/industry or friend & family pricing. It's a really expensive place to live and it isn't sustainable but for now the docs & dentists and lawyers & engineers are moving in to get close to the trails and when you consider that's the reason people move to the shore from all over the place and spend 1.2M on a tear down, it's no wonder they don't flinch at 10k for a bike.

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DDS
DDS
2 weeks ago
+2 Pete Roggeman Andrew Major

Andrew,

Great article. My practice (Diamond Head Dental in Squamish) has been involved with SORCA since we opened. We’ve sponsored toonie races, the megacy/grizzly meadow build, Team Squamish and we are currently a corporate sponsor ( Sorca website needs to be updated). Being involved with Sorca has been great for the practice and I encourage any business to do the same.  And yes, myself and a lot of my staff bike. I even have a trail-building hygienist on the team. 

Chris Kelly

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
1 week, 1 day ago
0

Thanks, Chris, 

Apologies that I missed your comment before now. I followed up with the local association to make sure their list was up to date but not outside where I'm looking for a new dentist personally, so apologies that I missed you. I've updated the article to include DHD!

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mtbman99
mtbman99
2 weeks ago
+2 4Runner1 Andrew Major

Great article and looking at the UROC page I was quite surprised by the lack of donors considering that a large number of business thrive because of the Mountain Biking's popularity in the region especially those directly within Cumberland.

I know some business's donate in other ways than cash so that is not taken into account.

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syncro
Mark
2 weeks ago
+2 Andrew Major Pete Roggeman

Eons ago I was talking with Smoke at a trail day and his suggestion was that people that rider regularly donate either a day's wages or a day's labour to support the trails. That should be on top of buying a local trail org membership and trail pass. There might be a good chance that some local dentists (or any other business) fall into those categories and don't advertise their support. While I agree with Andrew that using the local trail org sponsor list is a good way to find a biz you may need the services of, I also see tashi's point that just because someone isn't listed as a sponsor it doesn't mean they aren't doing something to help out. Picking up the phone or checking a website might get you those answers, but it might not if the person answering the phone may not know either. 

IMHO there's far more responsibility on riders to put in the work to maintain a resource that they use for free. How many of your riding buddies show up to trail days or go out 1-2 times per year for half a day even to do simple things like work on drainage or filling in mud holes? My personal thought is people should give back 10% of the time they spend riding or an equivalent dollar amount based on what they earn. Ride 100 hours this season? Then do 10 hours of labour or donate say $500 depending on what you earn. If everyone that rides pulls their own weight there would be ZERO issue with being able to fund trail crews and pay for office staff to run the org's. Consider that tonight when you're brushing your teeth and you look in the mirror. Is the person staring back at you doing their part or are they taking advantage of other people's (mostly) unpaid labour?

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
+1 Mark

I know a few riders who don’t have time to build - read: choose to do other things with their time than build - who are very generous with their financial support. Buying tools, kicking over cash every time they see a builder. 

There are lots of ways for individuals to positively affect the trail network. Even just writing an email to local mayor/council saying how you think the local trail association is awesome.

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syncro
Mark
1 week, 6 days ago
0

I'm gonna guess from the lack of response to my post that a lot of people were uncomfortable with the person looking at them in the mirror on this issue.

Trail work and advocacy should be as important a part of mtb culture as the riding.

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Lynx
Lynx .
1 week, 6 days ago
+1 Mark

Or they've put in SO many hours of trail work, that they could not do a lick more trail work the rest of their lives and not feel guilty about that, I know I have.

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syncro
Mark
1 week, 6 days ago
0

For sure, but I have a pretty strong suspicion that those people represent a very small percentage of the total mtb riders out there.

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martin
Martin
2 weeks, 1 day ago
+1 Andrew Major

I guess I was lucky that my new dentist out East is a mountain biker and happens to donate to local trail organisations. Maybe it helps that he's my girlfriend's cousin too, but he's a really nice guy and he even "donates" to a mountain biker I know by giving him a good deal haha!  To be honest I frequently contribute to my dentist's income and I don't like to change hands often, but my previous dentist retired so I had to change anyway. It's time for a clean and I completely forgot so thanks for the reminder and good luck with your search!

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks, 1 day ago
0

I hope that being awesome and donating to local trails delivers a solid base of mountain biker cliental. Reap what your sow and all that.

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Lynx
Lynx .
2 weeks ago
+1 Sven Luebke

Boy Andrew, I've enjoyed all your other "post Achilles heal" accident pieces, but this, this one is just utter, plain truth and a good call out to all of "us", even those foreign to the North Shore, to look at who's sponsors your local trail association and patronize them and let them know why you patronize them. Never knew you could look up who helps local trail organizations, will definitely keep that in mind next time I travel.

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
0

Cheers!

Yeah, I think ~ everyone is on board with the idea of shopping trail sponsors (and sponsoring trails) just sometimes we all need a reminder is all.

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tashi
tashi
2 weeks ago
+1 Lu Kz Dave Tolnai Bern

I know a couple of dentists, both of whom USED to mountain bike.

One of em is single so he spends his time messing around with Audis, Porches, watches, trips and expensive girlfriends. No time for mountain bikin.

The other one gave up the mountain bike after a bit of a crash injured his hand. With two kids at home, a half dozen staff and a half million tied up in his new practice he’s not comfortable with the risk. A real injury to his hand would bring it all down.

My dentist and his dentist wife mountain bike.

Edit #2: All of these guys donate dental services to people who can’t afford them.  Broke peoples teeth are way more important then rich people hobbies so they’re making the right choice IMO.

Edit: I’d like to also point out that not being listed on an organizations website isn’t a conclusive indicator that you’re not contributing. My business contributes to numerous causes, hosts events for free etc. We’re not in anyone websites as a sponsor because non profits aren’t good at that and we don’t do it for recognition.

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
0

Re. Edit #2. Absolutely. There are lots of great things organizations do that are worthy of support and fixing “broke people’s teeth” over “rich people’s hobbies” is a worthy choice if it is a choice. I thought I made that point re. Crankbrothers raffle bike going to Crisis Support Line

But, we’re talking about $500 here to sponsor their local trail association. 

Re. Edit. Agreed. I think if more mountain bikers shopped trail sponsors these rolls would be more valuable to everyone and probably better updated.

For the record, I support many businesses that don’t sponsor trail associations and some of them over businesses that do support trail associations. It’s one piece in a puzzle. My point is just that it’s a nice starting point when I am looking for a new service, and given its $500, I was surprised that none of the 30+ dentists within an easy distance are on the list.

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kootenayg
Glenn Peck
2 weeks ago
+1 Andrew Major

I 100% enjoyed reading your article, most times the role of sponsorship coordinator is a volunteer task held at an executive level for these listed association Board of Directors.  I currently hold this position in another totally different community 'not for profit' recreation association. Did anyone ask for sponsorship, or are we assuming business should just step up to the plate? It's a hard job collecting monies. We never know the answer until we ask.

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
1 week, 1 day ago
0

Fair point, I'm putting the onus on the business. If there's a local dentist (or another professional service provider) who mountain bikes wouldn't they be out trying to to sponsor the trails?

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LoamtoHome
Jerry Willows
2 weeks ago
+1 Andrew Major

support all the builders/maintainers of the trails.  Too many moochers out there.

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
+1 Jerry Willows

Support how JW?

Are you going to start selling ‘No Dig, Just Ride’ sticker packs on the side of the trail as folks ride buy? “I Dig Jerry” boxer shorts and other gear?!

Trail associations are an easy way to support trails and see who supports trails. It’s harder to write about supporting builders out of that purview.

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LoamtoHome
Jerry Willows
2 weeks ago
+2 Andrew Major Gage Wright

its easy to give trail associations all the credit/support but saying thanks, respecting the trails, better industry support to the independents would be a great.

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
+1 Jerry Willows

It’s easy to give to trail associations, especially as a business. Not inviting liability in publicizing your good works.

I’ve written about independent, sanctioned, builders as well. 

Writing about/supporting off the radar stuff is a lot trickier beyond carrying some cash for the tool fund when you run into the builder.

———

*edit: actually I’m probably overdue to write a piece about just that - so thank you for the inspiration.

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
+1 Jerry Willows

As an aside, I still love this quote (from above):

“I have no interest in seeing our public lands sanitized from risk and therefore sanitized from recreational usage.” - DNV Mayor Mike Little on Teeter Totters.

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tdmsurfguy
tdmsurfguy
1 week, 4 days ago
+1 Andrew Major

For what it’s worth. My dentist gave our trail nonprofit $500 without battling a eye. If your in Oregon and need a dentist I got ya covered

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
1 week, 1 day ago
0

Awesome!

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dave_f
dave_f
2 weeks ago
0

I think my dentist is more into sponsoring ice hockey. I can understand his reasoning.

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
0

Yeah, surprised all the advertising at the rink isn’t bought up by dentists and sports-medicine outfits. Lots of old(er) cars out there in the demolition derby that also need to drive the kids to school the next day. 

Still, does your dentist mountain bike. $500 buy in.

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earleb
earle.b
2 weeks ago
0

A  friend that lives in Squamish is a dentist and a shredder. I know he has sponsored a few toonies there in the past.

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AndrewMajor
Andrew Major
2 weeks ago
0

Please see my response to Phil.

It’s great that they sponsored events in the past. I’m running off current information.

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Tjaardbreeuwer
Tjaard Breeuwer
5 days, 14 hours ago
0

Another good one Andrew!

I went and did a quick check, and same as you, was disappointed. The ice cream shop makes ‘steel level’ , many other small business are in the in kind donation list, but other than an orthodontist’s office, no dentists to be found.

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