Lifetime Warranty on a Dropper?
Disrupting Lousy Warranties in Mountain Biking
Warranty is a sticky business in the bike industry. From the retail side, having worked in several bike shops, it’s easy to get jaded. Riders so often bring in products that failed catastrophically while they were “just riding along” that the industry has shortened that to “JRA.” Some people try to warranty bikes destroyed when they drive into their parking garage with their bike on the roof, or to return forks that were clearly damaged due to neglect or from being ridden into a tree, but that's just scratching the surface.
On the consumer side, many riders find it takes ages to get a response when they make a warranty inquiry, if they get a response at all. Dealing with warranty issues through a shop can be challenging because shops often need to go through the distributor, who sometimes need to talk to the manufacturer, making for a long and frustrating communication chain that often ends without any satisfaction for the customer.
Companies have even been known to change coverage, as happened with Easton’s Haven carbon wheels once the company was acquired; you may have bought a product with a lifetime warranty, but it was cancelled. Manufacturers are in a tough spot as well though because mountain biking is hard on equipment. It’s done in the dirt, mud and dust, which can destroy fragile componentry in short order. When you sell cranks, pedals or even a frame to a 250 lb. shredder, that’s not likely to help your bottom line. Imagine how civil customer service must be for roadies?
The challenges on both sides of this relationship make it a minefield. From a business perspective, the statistics are staggering at every level. It may not be surprising that customers who rate a business or a product as a 5 on a 1-5 scale are six times more likely to do business with that company again. The shocking part of that statistic is that the comparison is customers who give a 4.8 rating. Beyond that, every business owner will tell you it’s much more costly to recruit new customers than it is to retain existing ones, by a factor of 6 or 7, and returning customers spend more money as well.
Besides droppers, PNW makes grips, and bars and stems.
The word of mouth factor is also hugely important. Those who have a positive experience are likely to tell 4-6 people about it, while a dissatisfied customer will tell between 9 and 15. Hidden in that stat is that 13% of unhappy customers will tell more than 20, and this isn’t counting those who complain online. Complaints are actually the canary in the coal mine, because for every one that comes in, there are on-average 26 other customers who felt the same but didn’t bother to get in touch.
Consumers are often so jaded they give up rather than deal with the hassle of warranty claims, they just go elsewhere to replace the product that failed. Years ago I had a car repaired at Craftsman Collision here in North Vancouver, and when I got it back the rear window leaked, very badly. I kept getting a song and dance that it wasn’t their fault or that it wasn’t covered by my insurance and I eventually gave up, and gave away the car, complete with the puddle in the back seat. Customer complaints can go on forever.
Armed with this knowledge I was pleasantly surprised to see a press release from PNW Components outlining their change in warranty policy; rather than the industry standard of 1-3 years,* PNW was offering lifetime coverage on all their products. Like all warranties, there was fine print below indicating that only the original owner was eligible and that normal wear and tear wasn’t covered, but in practice, co-founder Aaron Kerson told me that the company tries to cover everything they can. In fact the policy sort of evolved as the company was in business longer; “When we first entered the market, we had a two year warranty, and then we bumped that up to three years. And for our original customers from five years ago, we were already taking care of them. And so then we were just like, all right, let's just pull the bandaid off and do this right since we were already operating that way.”
*for complex components like dropper posts I’m not aware of other companies offering lifetime warranties - (but they may indeed exist). I am aware of frame and carbon rim manufacturers and some CNC shops who make stems and the like who do however
A PNW innovation is the Loam Dropper Midcap Band, which comes in 9 colours.
Where things get tricky is the wording. Virtually all warranties in the bike industry cover manufacturering defects. That can be difficult to prove and it’s a shield many companies hide behind so I asked what sort of situations would be covered. “A manufacturing defect can be a cartridge failing prematurely. The cartridge shouldn't be failing and it definitely should not be failing quickly. So when things happen, like a seal leaks some oil or some air is able to leak out, that's a hundred percent a warranty issue. Or if something bends or is able to crack over time. Things that are not wear and tear, right?”
I was surprised to hear Aaron mention seals because that sounds like wear to me so I pressed him on that but he was emphatic. “That's part of it. If the product is leaking and no longer working, we're going to take care of you on that one.”
Sadly, this perspective didn’t come from inside the bike industry, where his experiences have been less than stellar. “I've been riding and racing bikes since I was eight years old. Once I got into high school and college, I had to pay for all my own stuff. I'm not gonna use the brand name, but I remember I had cracked the frame and they didn't cover it and said, “well, you know, you were riding this bike too hard obviously, so we're not going to cover that.’ And it was devastating. My summer was over.”
Instead Aaron referenced some names known for customer service and for standing behind their products, like Arc’teryx and Patagonia, who often repair or replace products years after they were purchased. This ethos is also important to PNW Components and led them to launch PNW Cycled, a website where they sell refurbished gear that has been returned for some reason. It all gets checked and serviced and resold, whereas many companies simply throw these returns in the trash.
From left to right is Hilary Morris, Tom Clark (a friend of PNW not an employee), TJ Trotter, and Aaron Kerson. Photo - Emily Stevenson Kerson
Lifetime warranties work great when things don’t break, but sometimes the wheels come off, and I asked Aaron if that had happened at PNW. “For our initial launch of our newest Rainier, it had this actuator on it and some of the actuators had a little bird that would basically jam it. It would just stay open and not work.” The problem was isolated to a faulty machine in Taiwan and rectified, but there were already posts out in the market, and some of them had this problem.
The factory produced a few thousand replacements and got them to Seattle in about a week. “And then we hit up every one of our customers who had bought that product and got them a new actuator with a little video on how to replace it at home. It takes like five minutes to do and everyone was up and running again.” As you can imagine, customer response was overwhelmingly positive.
After my conversation with Aaron, I was about to reinstall my PNW Loam Lever, a deluxe dropper lever that runs smoothly on a cartridge bearing, but the bearing had become unacceptably notchy. I popped the dust cover and did my best to inject lube into the bearing without result, so it was time to try the process for myself.
The Loam Lever doesn't have much competition at the top of market for dropper levers.
The online form was short and easy and I quickly sent away my request, with a note stating I had no receipt. I promptly received an emailed response; the lack of receipt was no problem but bearings were out of stock. Instead they would be sending me a replacement thumb actuator with a bearing installed. I filled out the form on Thursday January 21st, received a response on the 22nd and had the replacement part by the 27th, and that span included a weekend.
Warranty is part of the equation, but customer service as a whole is a huge part of the business for PNW. Aaron was actually employed doing customer service for a company that made wind turbines. While it was fortunate these were small turbines rather than the mammoths used in wind farms, it was unfortunate that design flaws caused the blades to fly off and land on houses. Freshly graduated from college, it was Aaron’s job to field complaints from customers who were occasionally a little miffed. “All this is riding on my shoulders at 22 years old and I was left with no resources to deal with it. The issues were huge and it was so gnarly.”
Aaron knew that wasn’t the way he wanted to run a company and PNW puts a huge emphasis on the customer. “I guess you could say our company culture as a whole all gravitates around customer service.Obviously the product has to be super dialed in. I think that's a given, but once you get past that the customer service side has to be the strongest part of the company.”
Aaron’s hope is that more companies in the bike business will do a better job of standing behind their products. I think everyone who rides a mountain bike, and particularly anyone who’s had problems with warranty issues, is eager for that to happen.
We'd love to hear about your warrant experiences, positive or negative, from PNW or other companies below.
Comments
Andy Eunson
3 years, 8 months ago
Something that can ease warranty issues is developing a solid relationship with a shop. I’ve bought a shit ton of bikes and parts from one shop. On a first name basis with them for years. They know me well and will go to bat for me when needed. I treated them well and they returned the respect.
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Cr4w
3 years, 8 months ago
As an ex shop guy from Whistler it's amazing how many people will bring this attitude to other places. "But I'm a VIP at my home shop" doesn't mean much elsewhere. What's a guy to do? Call that shop in Minnesota and ask for a reference?
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AJ Barlas
3 years, 8 months ago
The amount of "I'm a local" type remarks I got at the shop in Whistler were also tiresome. Often that would come from people there not more than 12 months. Those who had been in Whistler for some time didn't need to play that card.
Could you imagine calling for a reference. It's actually a funny idea.
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Andy Eunson
3 years, 8 months ago
So true. When I worked at shops in Vancouver in the 80s it was the road racers that would ask for a deal. I revelled in saying no.
Never ask for a deal. Never. Earn the deals by spending cash and being respectful. Tell them about secret trails. Buy them beer. Deals will come.
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Cr4w
3 years, 7 months ago
It's a nice feeling when your favourite shop rings up your purchase and it's a lot less than it should be. That makes me look forward to coming back. And bring them some beers next time.
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Pete Roggeman
3 years, 8 months ago
This can't be overstated. I'd add 'especially these days' but it's always been the case.
I realize not everyone has a selection of good shops close by to choose from, but for those that do, making sure to darken your LBS's door from time to time and spending some money there has always been a long game worth playing. If you always just look for the cheapest deal online, remember that your transaction was impersonal, and that's (possibly) the level of service you should expect.
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Timer
3 years, 8 months ago
Depends on the price differential between local and online shops. For the money i saved over the last ten years by ordering online, i could have bought an entire bike as a spare. (no good shops around either)
Wouldn't be true today, though. Price differentials are shrinking and online shop service quality is increasing.
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IslandLife
3 years, 8 months ago
Part of the reason I like to try and buy from smaller more local companies is because dealing with issues or a warranty is usually much, much easier. Being able to pick up a phone and have a real conversation with other like minded riders about what's going on pretty much always leads to being taken care of... in some way or another. And generally, just being a nice person goes a long ways with these companies who have to deal with assholes wayyy too often.
I have lots of interesting warranty stories from my days as an amateur competitive snowboarder in the 90's. I used to blow through equipment pretty regularly (I rode hard, but also the quality of a lot of the product back then wasn't quite up to the task, ha!).
The best though was after a season and summer of riding a pair of Burton snowboard boots. For the first time in a long time, I didn't actually have to send them in for warranty replacement... they were perfectly fine. But funnily enough I used to break so much equipment that, for a number of years, I had come to rely on warranting my gear every year to get new gear. So I was kind of bummed, yes the boots were fine in that they weren't falling apart, but I had ridden them hard and they were worked... I needed new boots, what was I going to do! So, I just decided to send them off to the warranty department anyway and see what would happen. I packed them them up, but added a number of items that I hoped would help my case: 1. A nice funny letter explaining how much I liked their boots and really really wanted a new pair for the next season. 2. Two dairy queen coupons. 3. A picture of my current girlfriend (who was super hot). 4. Two porno mags.
Lo and behold... about a month later a box showed up with a brand new pair of next year's boots! Along with a letter from the warranty department telling me how much they enjoyed my little care package and thanking me for the "inspirational product" to help them get through "long hard" days... haha. Damn... wish I saved that letter.
Now this was back when warranty departments at even some of he bigger companies were just a bunch of young snowboard bums like me, I don't think I'd get the same response now... would I?
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Cam McRae
3 years, 8 months ago
That’s hilarious.
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Geof Harries
3 years, 8 months ago
Burton has always had pretty phenomenal customer service, at least in my experience (and yours, too apparently!).
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cheapondirt
3 years, 8 months ago
Being a light, relatively mellow (faster than the casuals but much slower than the hardcores) rider, who only gets out once a week - twice in a good week, and buys a lot of stuff used, I've never had to warranty anything. I'm interested to read the comments and see what others' experiences have been.
Well. I did snap a handlebar on the pull UP to hop a curb on my Sport Chek bike circa 2003, but didn't even think of trying to go back there for a replacement.
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NotMeAtAll
3 years, 8 months ago
Being a large man, heavy on the wheels but not fast as hardcores, I should change my bar. It's an 720mm enlarged to 800mm with aluminum bushings made from a hacked up bar. And is from circa 2003.
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Pete Roggeman
3 years, 8 months ago
Do it today.
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Cr4w
3 years, 8 months ago
I'm 240lbs and ride hard. I replace my bar every year or so. Heavier riders put gear through more cycles of abuse than lighter riders even if they don't ride as hard. You don't want to be there when that bar fails.
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Geof Harries
3 years, 8 months ago
Agreed. I've broken handlebars, seatposts, a fork brace and frames (one sheared at the headtube, another the seat tube and another the seat stay) all because I'm bigger, not because of badly landed stunts. Simply fatigue from getting pounded on trails by someone over 200 lbs.
I've broken a couple of Kona frames, and warranty has always been very smooth and easy through our local shop. This is a big reason why I tend to buy Kona bikes.
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[user profile deleted]
3 years, 8 months ago
This comment has been removed.
Cam McRae
3 years, 8 months ago
We need an LOL button!
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fartymarty
3 years, 8 months ago
Lockdowns have that effect on me too :)
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Cr4w
3 years, 7 months ago
Depends how much water I'm carrying! Plus or minus my morning constitutional.
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Cr4w
3 years, 8 months ago
The only times I've ever warrantied anything was because of a defect of some kind.
Bike people can be incredibly petty and entitled when it comes to warranty. The whole helmet crash replacement thing for example. You crashed, the helmet broke your fall and you're still breathing. The product did its job exactly as intended but now a rider expects some kind of deal to maintain brand loyalty? That the helmet worked well and did its job was exactly what that company needed to provide to qualify for that loyalty. Imagine bringing a motorcycle helmet that looked like it was held on a grinder into the dealership and demanding a deal on a new one.
Or the JRA. I rode my bike, crashed and cracked the frame "oh I bet I can probably warranty that" - on what basis exactly? They should help you get it figured out but they don't owe you a new frame. Bike forums are filled with any posts about some "shit" company that offered them a replacement swingarm at cost.
If you buy a car and from the dealership and crash it during regular use you wouldn't expect warranty service but with bikes we do (for some reason).
Why do bike people feel entitled to warranty for issues that would be laughed at in any other business?
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mrbrett
3 years, 8 months ago
Some automotive companies so go above and beyond when it comes to warranty. The Tacoma frame warranty situation comes to mind. Toyota was protecting their resale value (think lease rates) as much as brand loyalty.
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AJ Barlas
3 years, 8 months ago
I have to disagree with the Tacoma frame warranty comment. There are heaps of Tacoma owners in the US with a rusted hunk of shit because Toyota wouldn't cover them. There are also heaps who had to fight tooth and nail for anything. Of course, many have had it fixed too but to suggest Toyota is looking after their customers with that concern isn't completely accurate.
I've been following the frame rust situation closely since about 2011 because our Taco is an '07 and the potential for dangerous frame rust scares the shit out of me. They did apply the shitty coating a number of years back under warranty but as many (more knowledgable than me) predicted, it's just flaking off. Now I need to scrape it back and begin annual undercoating of my own to minimize the rust.
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gregster77
3 years, 8 months ago
Yep, 100%. Only reason toyota eventually came forward with this was the class action. My 05 frame got replaced because it had a hole in it, rusted through with only 150k on the odo here in lower mainland.
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gregster77
3 years, 8 months ago
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skibumben
3 years, 7 months ago
i agree. they also could have figured out how to prevent frame rust by now. i have a '15 that shows signs of frame rust if left unattended. i wash out underneath mine twice a year and soak it in fluid film, seems to be giving it a fighting chance. its worth keeping the truc and treating that as a maintenance item, if the rest of the unit is going to last for 500k km.
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Perry Schebel
3 years, 8 months ago
i had an impressive warranty experience with nicolai - on a frame i bought used. developed a tt to ht crack; they told me to send it back to have a look. interestingly, they decided to repair (gratis) - stripped, welded in a gusset, and re-powder coated in my choice of custom color. turned around in a couple weeks, looked like new. pretty cool.
in retrospect, i've had my share of borked frame warranty experiences - yikes:
kuwahara (bmx) - 2
trimble (carbon xc thing)
brc (xc hardtails) - 2
gary fisher joshua
sc super-8 - 2
24 cycles letoy
rocky rm-7
lahar (carbon dh thing)
some experiences were more painful than others...
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Mammal
3 years, 8 months ago
Pretty damn sweet that you had a Lahar though!
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Cam McRae
3 years, 8 months ago
What do you mean 'had?' Don't you still own that thing Perry? But not your Brooklyn Machine Works?
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Perry Schebel
3 years, 8 months ago
i cracked the first one, but still have the replacement (which is intact). sold the brooklyn, sadly. now THAT frame was unkillable.
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AJ Barlas
3 years, 8 months ago
And you sold it!?
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Perry Schebel
3 years, 7 months ago
of course i regret it now, but i got surprisingly good $ at the time for what was essentially a shiny bit of wall art.
Jerry Willows
3 years, 8 months ago
I don't go through much warranty but nothing but praise for Raceface for replacing Next cranks. Fluid Function swapped out a blown rc+ damper for a rc2 on my Boxxer and that's a huge upgrade for free.
"Trail Karma" also helps with warranty issues... somehow it just does.
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KavuRider
3 years, 8 months ago
I have had to warranty a few things. I had a pair of Oakley sunglasses that broke (frame just snapped one day). Called them, asked if there was anything they could do. They had me ship the broken ones back and a week later I had a brand new pair. That was a long time ago.
If I ever have a problem with a part, I usually just call or email the company and tell them what happened. Never had any issue with being taken care of. A lot of them, especially the smaller companies, seem to appreciate the feedback.
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Chad K
3 years, 8 months ago
Unfortunately, Oakley has actually changed how they handle their warranty process and it's honestly a nuisance now. While I love my glasses from them, their new way of handling warranty claims is abysmal
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AJ Barlas
3 years, 8 months ago
How do they handle it now, Chad and how were they doing it before?
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KavuRider
3 years, 8 months ago
Oh that sucks. I haven't had to warranty anything with them for a long time, so I didn't know. That's too bad, they were awesome back in the day.
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Vik Banerjee
3 years, 8 months ago
I've had really good post-sales support from most companies I deal with including bike companies. I think that's a combo of #1) having realistic expectations and #2) not being a dick. I've had lots of situations where I got help with products that were out of the warranty period or not covered for the type of problem I had.
PNW sounds like they have a good perspective on product performance. Ultimately that's what's going sell product...people enjoying using what you make and having it work for long enough they feel they are getting good value out of it.
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Alex D
3 years, 8 months ago
I don't value warranties as they exist now. Besides the fine print and the overhead, they're almost all non-transferable. That's a joke to me. Buy a used Hyundai and you'll get the balance of that 60,000 mile warranty. Spend the same money on a used Specialized (or Enve, or nearly every other brand, "premium" or not), and you can go pound sand.
To me, you either stand behind your product or you don't. The original owner already paid you for the warranty; if you negate that support when the product changes hands ten minutes later, you're treating that compensation like a windfall. One more liability to strike from the balance sheet! Hooray for you. But if that product breaks from an engineering or manufacturing defect, you can bet I'll be crowing about it in forums like this, and there won't be any "and they stepped in to make this right" to offset the bad taste.
That aside, most MTB products don't have "lifetime" utility. My first dropper was 150mm and $400. I replaced it two years later with a $300 185mm dropper, and that one will be replaced with a 200mm as soon as my next frame becomes available. An extended warranty on an obsolete product or one likely to rapidly drop in price just isn't that interesting. The warranty is mostly relevant to deal with infant deaths that occur in the first two years when I'm not eying a replacement for other reasons.
For a customer-focused company, though, I'd say 7 years is the right span, few or no questions asked. And if someone contacts you about your thing from a decade ago and you make an exception here and there, they'll praise you to the heavens.
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Lu Kz
3 years, 8 months ago
Some companies are starting to adopt transferable (although limited) warranties. I think Trek now does 3 years from original purchase date for subsequent owners? IMO that's more than enough time for a warranty issue to crop up on a frame. And there's a few smaller (hyper expensive) companies that allow fully transferable warranties too - but you pay for em' up front.
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Alex D
3 years, 8 months ago
Better than nothing, and yet still parsimonious. I'd argue a $15K S-Works fits in the "hyper-expensive" category. Same non-transferable warranty.
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Jerry Willows
3 years, 8 months ago
Specialized has a 2 yr transferrable warranty.
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Alex D
3 years, 8 months ago
I stand corrected. Same opinion, though.
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Marty Zaleski
3 years, 8 months ago
Enve replaced a rim I bought second-hand. No hassles. Easy to get a hold of and talk the issue through. Maybe their nominal line is “original owner only”, but they go beyond that in practice.
SRAM, on the other hand... what a nightmare.
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Cam McRae
3 years, 8 months ago
Feel free to tell us about your bad dreams Marty.
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bart
3 years, 7 months ago
As an industry guy, I warranty stuff every day - I find most of the manufacturers pretty easy to deal with, certain brands go above and beyond while others follow a little more closely to the wording. But from my point of view some products do have a usable lifespan. Lifetime warranty is great in theory but there are some problems in it's execution as time goes by. Take the Easton example, sure they got bought and that can change everything, but that isn't always the rule...lets say they kept the warranty timeline - How many Haven rims should they have kept? hubs? if they run out 10 or 15 years down the road should they be forced to do another production run of what could be 100 rims in 26"? How many 26" frames would still be in one piece? These are all the questions all these brands have to think about - Its complicated and some people do get left with a bad taste in their mouth and that sucks from a consumer point of view. but how do you manage that? Does a shorter Warranty timeline fix that bad taste and manage a consumer expectation so they don't feel short changed down the road on a product that really has a usable life? From my experience most companies are pretty reasonable and if you can start a good dialogue a pretty decent resolution normally comes through. Just keep in mind your local shop is just your voice between you and the manufacturer, we go to bat for you so you don't have to navigate all the nitty gritty back end details.
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Cam McRae
3 years, 7 months ago
Some good points and useful insider intel and insight Bart. I experienced that recently when I talked to ENVE for a friend/trailbuilder who recently cracked a 26" ENVE DH rim. (It had been out of service for years and was hardly used, not one that had been beaten up for 8 years)
ENVE was very receptive but they had been cleaned out of their 26" stock by sponsored dirt jump athletes, which wasn't surprising. In fact they didn't even have the moulds for those rims any longer. Pretty tough to do much at that point.
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bart
3 years, 7 months ago
That is definitely the challenge, with the amount of "innovation" in the bike industry things get outdated and in recent years faster than ever before. as much as I would like to think dropper posts won't change much will this lifetime warranty still be able to help the rider out with a 15 year old post? only time will tell, but for now it is an exciting catch phrase that has a lot of people taking notice, good on PNW for pushing the envelope none the less!
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cxfahrer
3 years, 8 months ago
How many Wyntek cartridges for a lifetime warranty...? They dont even last one day chairlifting (when the bike is hung to the chairlift with the saddle down). OneUp replaced my 210 with a new one, but how often will they do that?
Breaking the chainstay of a frame was quite a hassle, the bike had 3years of warranty on the frame and it broke 1 week after it ended. They did fix it though (in a different colour), but I had to ship the frame to the dealer where I bought it and the dealer was not that motivated to get on with it, but eventually did.
Long ago I broke the seatdome of my Canyon Torque. The Thomson seatpost was just out about on 'max'. It took some shouting and yelling on the phone for months until I finally got a new frame - in their opinion I had the seatpost overmaxed, and the warranty would be void. BTW that was the time of the flat seat angles and my legs are really long ;)
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olaa
3 years, 8 months ago
I've broken my fair share of stuff over the years, and always have gotten good warranty support. Amongst others I broke a GT frame back in the day, 4 months past the warranty period. I asked if there was a possibility of getting a replacement for a bit less money, but ended up getting sponsored :) So that was the most lucrative broken frame ever!
Also broke 4 Commencal frames in one season back when they had problems with carbon layups. And those really were JRA, one frame broke when i pedaled uphill. The last Commencal frame i got on warranty i sold to a friend (with the promise to handle any warranty issues that might arise), and he is still riding it 10 years later so i guess they figured out the issues in the carbon layup.
For some parts I think that a good crash replacement policy might be better than warranties that try to include too much. Carbon rims for example would be such a thing, that way it should be easier for companies to keep initial cost lower, instead of spreading warranty cost on all customers. But maybe that is a non-issue? Anybody knows any stats for breakage on modern carbon rims?
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Timer
3 years, 8 months ago
Not an industry insider, so maybe someone with more knowledge can expand on that. My impression is that super-cheap mass production has changed the way warranty is handled. More companies are quick to replace or just send fresh products to customers. I guess its because manufacturing itself is quite cheap, relative to marketing and design, that generous replacement has become a viable strategy.
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hankthespacecowboy
3 years, 8 months ago
Big ups to PNW! I've been on my Rainer post for 3 years, and it has been fantastically reliable. Of the few times when it has become saggy, or failed to return to full height, all it has required is pumping back up to pressure. Well worth noting that by the time the post was getting to this point, it was nearly 100 psi lower than recommended, yet still managing to operate. Based on my experience, I'd say they have good reason to be confident in offering a lifetime warranty on their products.
The Loam Lever is also far & away the most pleasant feeling dropper lever I've ever put a thumb on. The "yoga mat" thumb pad is much more enjoyable to the touch (even with gloves on) v. the various machined patterns on other dropper levers.
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tdmsurfguy
3 years, 8 months ago
I have a PNW rainier and love it! I also want to shout out that PNW also gives back to the riding community. When I was working on a raffle to build a pump track in Oregon, PNW was one of the first companies to help. They were so generous and helpful. We’re still working on building that pump track but we’re closer.
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Allen Lloyd
3 years, 8 months ago
Based on my limited interactions with PNW I would bet there is some level of preferring to make a little less money in exchange for making the customers happy. Both my interactions with them came from me making a mistake and screwing something up. Both times they acted like they were the ones who screwed up. After the second time I decided I am a customer for life. Their investment of some shipping costs and some tech time has resulted in me buying a couple droppers and bars.
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peterk
3 years, 8 months ago
Warranty is an interesting topic and certainly worthy of a full deep dive with many aspects:
-The 3 year product cycle for bikes or shop bros selling their bikes every year, is lifetime warranty even that valuable?
-products with anecdotally a 100% failure rate
-People who are pretty much "sponsored" by the warranty departments of certain companies because they break so much stuff.
-Impact of # of previous warranty claims on increasing frame/component weights for future product generations
-do companies bank on having a certain number of "light users" who buy product but don't beat it up enough to push it to failure. Do we all have to pay more because of "heavy users"?
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Cam McRae
3 years, 8 months ago
Good questions. I think many are in the dark category; things that companies talk about internally but not publicly. I’ve been wanting to write something on failure rate, particularly of frames. This is something companies plan for and calculate carefully. Obviously they don’t always hit their targets but each company has their own acceptable threshold and there is quite a range. Getting most companies to talk about this is impossible but there are a few. Some think only about bottom line: lighter frames will sell better but fail more and the extra sales might outweigh the hassle, cost, danger to rider and waste of those failures. Other companies take a more rider and environment centric approach to this calculation. Sadly - in the dark category.
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Nick Howard
3 years, 8 months ago
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JVP
3 years, 8 months ago
" -Impact of # of previous warranty claims on increasing frame/component weights for future product generations"
To me this is a good thing. I've always bought longer travel bikes, not necessarily because I want the travel, but because shorter travel bikes in the past were too weak and I'd break them. These days I have options.
Another example is the crazy warranty coverage on carbon rims. This is a great thing because they're now all beefed up to the point that I won't get stranded deep in the backcountry due to a blown up wheel.
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YDiv
3 years, 8 months ago
Really have to give a shoutout to OneUp. Great customer service and always very prompt when it comes to communicating back and forth (even if the email chain gets looong). Plus they have a sense of humor!
I think when it comes to warranty, as long as you drop the mindset that you're always entitled to a free replacement, you'll be pleasantly surprised that quite a few places will go pretty far to sort you out.
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Lu Kz
3 years, 8 months ago
Yeah not many companies send out shipping labels with their warranty replacements to get the old stuff back at no cost to the customer. OneUp does. They're great.
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Lu Kz
3 years, 8 months ago
Gold Standard for Warranties:
Trek/Bontrager - I have never seen a company royally hook up so many people for warranty issues. Break a freehub on a carbon wheel? Whole new wheel is sent. Crack a front triangle? You can have another frame or a credit so large buying another complete bike ends up at sub 500 bucks. 9 times out of 10 Trek encourages US to make the warranty call - they trust our judgement and are willing to stand by our expertise and judgement. I've also seen some absolutely stupid stuff covered by their 2 year extended carbon wheel warranty, and some absolutely stupid stuff covered by their bike warranty. - For these things, we haven't gone to bat for the customer (because our rep would be on the line if we did) but just submit and leave it up for Trek to decide - and I've seen some VERY shocking but positive results for the customer.
We Are One - I mentioned this I think yesterday in another comment section but these guys are good. They say the warranty doesn't cover driving over your bike with your truck, but pretty much everything that can happen on a bike gets covered. It seems true to me. Plus in my experience they are FAST.
Annoying Tier - a certain company whose recent-ish restructuring has lead to their out of province accountants getting in charge of things and making us fill out an incredibly annoying and tedious form that isn't integrated with the rest of their systems or websites for ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING. Warranty issue? Fill the form out. Crash replacement? Fill the form out. Someone wants to buy a chainstay at retail because they know they screwed up and are being good about it? FILL OUT THE GOD DAMN FORM AND YOU HAD BETTER HAVE PICTURES AND SERIAL NUMBERS.
Trash Tier - Any company that's using cheap non-branded parts on their bikes. Most common culprit is front hubs. Hub breaks? Phone up the company who sold the bike to find out who makes the hub. Ok it's brand X (No, not actually Brand-X, but a hypothetical brand... although Brand-X does make some of these components). Can you guys replace the hub? No. OK, great. Who's the Canadian distributor? Oh. There isn't one. Here's a contact e-mail for some guy in his basement in the USA who has a tiny distribution company that isn't interested in dealing with a warranty claim for someone who he didn't sell product to and isn't even in the same country as he is. He isn't going to reply to your e-mail so don't even bother. You're not happy, your customer isn't happy, and the bike brand you phoned isn't really happy either because they're too busy dealing with their dumpster fire of a backorder system which wasn't designed for every single shop to backorder 1.5-2 seasons worth of stuff all at once. So now you get to either piss off the customer (who may have bought a really nice bike - these hubs are appearing occasionally on 7k plus carbon bikes these days!) or eat it yourself. Good times.
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Lu Kz
3 years, 8 months ago
To readers who feel like these companies mentioned have not performed to this level, I'd suggest working with a different shop. It's the middle guy (your LBS) that is the one who characterizes the issue
I'll also add Blackburn to the gold standard tier. I almost think they want you to fuck their products up in the name of testing/improvement. Just send it back with some photos and a story and they're going to cover it.
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Alex D
3 years, 8 months ago
IME, gold tier includes Ritchey, BikeYoke, Kuat, Raleigh, and Diamondback. Cannondale requires some documentation but has come through for me on a few parts that repeatedly broke.
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Lu Kz
3 years, 8 months ago
5 brands I don't deal with at all. Good to know though!
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Chad K
3 years, 8 months ago
Oh yes, BikeYoke! I had commented elsewhere about other companies about that have treated me well with warranty stuff over the years, but BikeYoke is another level. Sacki is the absolute best. I was having an issue with my post and he worked with me over email to diagnose the issue and then explained how to rebuild the post to solve the problem!
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GreyHead
3 years, 7 months ago
Lots of great comments. Companies with great warranties, that I've dealt with:
Osprey - they have stood behind their "Allmighty Guarantee" even for user stupidity. Had one shoulder strap rip out of a pack when a friend went down badly in TOM. Asked them if they could fix it at my cost, and they sent me a new pack (with a new bladder as well!). Sent in several photos of broken buckles asking where can I get replacements, they simply put several spares in an envelope and sent them to me!
Mountain Hardware - Ski jacket zipper failed after 6 years, they declined to replace the zip, but gave me a voucher to choose a replacement! I have one of their experimental packs, the Solitude, 10 years old at this point. But just after I'd bought it, a rat chewed through a side pocket on the Torres Del Paine trail. I mentioned it when discussing the jacket issue and great MH products I've had. By then it was out of production, a "historical" pack and they offered to make it as new! I declined as it was my fault for leaving food in the pocket and I'd fixed it with a trail badge.
Different Bikes - Warrantied so many early reverb dropper posts for me I lost count. Would take the bike in and ask them to repair, and most times they got a new dropper. Warrantied several Shimano SPD XT/XTR pedals that came off the spindles. I had a great relationship with them. Their resurrection as Comor has been great, but I've had nothing to take in for warranty recently.
Kona Warrantied my Honzo Ti frame after it cracked.. After 4 years of riding, it didn't really owe me anything, but I was most grateful to get a brand new bike in return! Took a while as I didn't have an original receipt and Different bikes no longer exists, but the eventually honoured their lifetime warranty on the frame.
BikeYoke/Wheelthing warrantied this "unbreakable" dropper post that I managed to break several times... " Is he riding a hardtail" was the comment from BikeYoke
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DanL
3 years, 8 months ago
Lifetime warranty is, as Cam said, only good for the lifetime of the company or the warranty not the actual item
Patagonia - solid warranty experience - they gave me a new wetsuit off the shelf when my R3 seams were failing and will stand behind anything they manufacture
Dakine - solid warranty experience - sent in phone pic of fraying threads on slayer pads, new ones arrived in the post
The Bontrager carbon wheels looks like an interesting one, 2 yrs of rider error followed by a lifetime manufacturing defect.
The one that mystifies me is a limited frame warranty that applies only to the original purchaser even when it is within the warranty period.
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soft-g
3 years, 8 months ago
Cool to know that PNW has this sort of ethos. The dropper space is crowded. I’d buy a PNW over a OneUp knowing this.
Surprised no one has shouted out Santa Cruz yet for their outrageously good after sales support.
Roach your shock hardware? No problem new hardware is in the mail.
Need new bearings - free for life.
Crack a front triangle? Submit claim after work Friday, new frame is at your door Thursday the following week. (This has happened 2X now)
Ive cracked frames from 4 other manufacturers and I’ve always found the experience to take months, and your just as likely as not to a mismatched colour.
Yeah SC isn’t cheap, but IMO the service makes the price comparable.... and hey if you crack a previous gen model you could be on the receiving end of a warranty upgrade😎.
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gregster77
3 years, 8 months ago
Yes on Santa Cruz.
Have a chip on the cable port near the head tube. It's cosmetic really, just a bigger hole, not structural.
Shop sent in warranty claim to check, got email from SC a day or two later that it did qualify, but because not structural i would have to wait, because there are no such things as bikes or bike frames in 2020. No problem. :)
Then there was some confusion, bike shop called me that because someone else at SC processed and thought it was result of crash it didn't qualify. I forward them the initial email i got, some more calls between shop and SC, then SC calls me directly... asks what happened, i say i honestly don't know - don't think there's any way of direct impact, my guess is one of the many OTB instances as my bar spun 180 and pulled on cable...
What helped my case is i mentioned i also have 2 other SC bikes (have a trail, DH, e-bike). That I think helped, but long story short I'm in line for a next version of the same frame some time later this year. The SC guy is like "seems you have enough bikes to ride..." i say yes, it's just cosmetic, I'm mostly concerned about eventual resale when i want to upgrade, I don't mind waiting..". BTW they said they had never seen that before (a chip in that spot). They have me choices of frames (for example switching to nomad now, but would have to get my own suspension).
I guess him doing the math that i've got ~$30k in bikes from SC, maybe worthwhile to send a new frame for future business :D. Like others said, not being an entitled jerk and dealing with a shop helped my case i think as well.
Anyways, yes happy with SC warranty for sure, and the bikes are high quality and very fun to ride. Now i just have to pick color & frame size when the new ones come out.
SC also is original owner only warranty as far as i know. Like others mentioned, kind of cheating on the warranty in that respect, would be nice to see at least some +2 year extension.
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Gage Lejay
3 years, 8 months ago
The story in the article mirrors my own experience with the loam lever. Crashed and bent the bar mount screw-> ask for replacement and they sent me a new bar mount but offered 40% off a whole new set. Bearing was seized in the lever->one week later had a new one covered by warranty.
Shout out to Nathan at PNW and the company as a whole. These guys get that good customer service is critical and stand by their products. Honestly above and beyond in my case.
Oneup has also stood by their components in my experience and has some great products that I use (droppers) so I am torn between the two companies as they overlap with heir products. If PNW had a CNCed stem, 35 mm clamp in ranges 35, 40, 50 I would be stoked to try one or some 35mm bars or some 32+mm grips. Then again this creeps into Chromag territory.
YT is a pain in the ass to deal with. My frame attempted to murder me twice with cracks in the rear then front triangle, total time in warranty 8 months. Never buy YT. Shop local my dudes (whatever that means in the complex global supply chain).
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Martin
3 years, 7 months ago
Like most people have said, when you are friendly, understanding, and not entitled to have everything, companies will try to help you be happy as much as they can. It's so much better for both parties involved. Having worked in a shop and customer service for a few moments in my life, I think that everyone should experience it in their life to get a better understanding of what it feels like haha!
Recently, I've had awesome customer/warranty service from Commencal, DVO, OneUp and WolfTooth, and I will support those companies as much as I can.
Outside of the bike world, Garmont shoes warrantied two pairs on which the soles quickly unglued themselves and the water would come in (similar models with the same soles). I called them, sent the shoes, and they sent me two pairs of the new model for the last one I had sent. That was in 2005 and even if they are pretty uncommon, I try to find Garmont shoes and boots whenever I need new ones. ( I have the same Momentum GTX winter boots since 2012, and I just bought another pair recently for when those finally die.)
On the other hand, I once sent a 2-rides-old Truvativ Hussefelt crankset to SRAM that was creaking at the pedal inserts. I paid for shipping, made a nice box to keep if looking nice and they shipped it back to me a month after, in a bag, with even creakier pedal inserts (probably from their testing)! I called them and they said that it wasn't covered by warranty, case closed. Call me stubborn, but since that day in 2009, I have made a pledge not to get anything made by SRAM and my bikes have been 100% SRAM-free since then.
Moral of the story, things can go both ways, but we are all humans who should treat others fairly and with respect in those situations. Treat me fairly and I'll be a customer for life. And most of my friends too!
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mrbrett
3 years, 8 months ago
I like this Aaron guy, could see me buying more PNW stuff in the future.
Worst warranty experience I had was with paint peeling off a frame, around 2005. Every time I washed the bike more fell off. When I sent it back for warranty they accused me of putting solvent or some other substance on it. Was over six months before I got a replacement. It was over 10 years before I bought another bike from that manufacturer again.
Best warranty experiences have been with Smith (replaced some broken sunglasses no questions asked), Poc (shipped me freebie helmet pads), We Are One (relaced a wheel with a hub defect SUPER FAST), Kuat (sent me a while new rack to replace one that was rotting from the inside out), Maxxis (replaced wobbly Aggressors easy peasy).
Most frustrating recently was Terrene. I sent warranty info to them about a wobbly casing tire and the Terrene warranty guy said it's for sure a manufacturing defect but since I'm in Canada he cant do anything. LTP doesn't want to deal with it.
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Chad K
3 years, 8 months ago
I've also had great warranty experiences with Kuat and Maxxis. Also, Fox, Kali, and Raceface (since it became part of Fox). Oh, and Specialized and RS/SRAM.
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AJ Barlas
3 years, 8 months ago
That's real shit for Terrene and worse of LTP if true. Maybe Terrene will move to a different distro, again, if true?
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mrbrett
3 years, 8 months ago
I haven't spoken to LTP myself, was through the local shop. Maybe broken telephone? All I know is if I was in the USA I'd have a straight tire. Bummer though, that a line on a map can stop customer service dead.
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AJ Barlas
3 years, 8 months ago
So true. You would think that although in the US, Terrene would/should be able to look after a Canadian customer. That damn line, hey?
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soft-g
3 years, 8 months ago
LTP/Norco are a nightmare to deal with. A few years back I went through 4 chainstays on a Range over the course of a season and a half. 3 cracked, the bearings ovalized the frame on the 4th. After receiving a 5th chain stay I was told “no more” by the shop I bought it from. I sold the bike within a week and have been driving around with a “1 less Norco” sticker on my bumper since...
When someone screws you, you tell everyone.
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Lu Kz
3 years, 8 months ago
This comment has been removed.
jdt
3 years, 8 months ago
I had my weeks-old Easton Haven rear hub strip free at the freehub in the middle of a race. I was choked. This was just sport-class northwest peanuts racing, but I put a lot of training into it.
Contacted OGC (distro) and dropped off the wheel. Within one week, they had cleared it for warranty, and rebuilt my wheel the new hub, in time for my next race. One week for turnaround with a rebuilt wheel out the other side. Took the sting out of the DNF, and that wheel is still humming nicely nearly 10 years later.
Another good warranty experience was the Geomangear lithium-ion batteries. The guy behind Geoman had a small-fry operation with hopes of becoming a new Niterider or something. He put out a bunch of batteries with MagicShine kits that were found to be at risk of exploding. He then issued a recall with an offer to replace all batteries at a nominal fee. This was before the restrictions on battery shipments. I received my batteries a few weeks later. Unfortunately, this warranty campaign probably cost Geoman his business.
Third great experience was the early Crankworks days going into the SRAM booth with all my forks for free service and warranties. Before it became the gong-show it is today, you just needed to come by in the first few days, and you would end up with all your problems solved. Thanks folks!
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Mammal
3 years, 8 months ago
As a grass-roots DH racer from Victoria in 2004, I was so stoked with the SRAM booth at Crankworks. I demolished my XO shifter in a crash while goofing around with buddies on some jumps, and they just gave me a new one (even installed it) to get me racing the next day. It absolutely blew my mind.
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Onawalk
3 years, 8 months ago
Oh the stories I could tell,
It would fill an article twice as long as this one, with both good and bad outcomes.
I really like the company ethos here, and its similar to my experiences with other companies in the area (Transition, Cascade components, Kona, Norco, Rocky Mountain, OneUp). Not just on warranty, but a real care and concern for their customers, and a desire to keep them satisfied.
I bet we all have stories good, bad, indifferent, and many that are contradictory to one another, regardless of any past history, we can all get behind the stance of this company on warranty.
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badgerracer
3 years, 7 months ago
I got an Evil Following V3 in October. When giving her a clean on Jan 31st (a Sunday) I noticed a crack on the back of the seat tube. Sent them an email first thing the next morning (Monday) including a picture. Heard back 2 hours later that they would be replacing my front triangle under warranty. Front triangle shipped Tuesday morning.
The following Monday the warranty front triangle arrived. Considering I’m in Alabama, and it came from Bellingham, the turnaround was very impressive. They got me back in action in 1 week.
Almost forgot and had to edit...I had to warranty the rear wheel that came on the bike. An I9 Hydra Enduro S. It kept breaking spokes. Seemed really weird because I’ve had i9 wheels in the past that lasted 3 years with 0 problems. Reached out to them over the phone. They said they must’ve gotten some dud spokes because I wasn’t the first person to have this issue recently. They sent me a shipping label, I sent them the wheel, they rebuilt it and sent it back. I’m not that far from Asheville, which undoubtedly helped, but total turnaround time was 6 business days. That was about a month and a half ago and I haven’t had an issue since.
Seems like both of these issues can be chalked up to QC control during/due to COVID. Parts are hard to get, brands are having to go to alternates, and factories are working overtime just to get out what they can. The takeaway I would say is if you’re buying during this unprecedented pandemic-related bike boom try and make sure the manufacturer will have your bike. Times are weird, and shit happens. Right now the shit will happen more than it otherwise would as everybody scrambles.
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Skooks
3 years, 7 months ago
I just had an excellent experience with I9 warranty. I managed to strip the teeth out of my Hydra hub. I sent the wheel to them, and they had it repaired 5 days after they received it. They ended up replacing the hub and re-building the wheel with new spokes. I expect things to break now and then and it doesn't bother me as long as it is handled well.
Also, I have nothing but good things to say about PNW. I have 2 of their droppers and 2 loam levers. Never had a single problem with any of them, and my interactions with PNW have been great.
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Seitenryu
3 years, 7 months ago
Even if it's "cheaper" for the consumer to have a replaceable cartridge, it's rather wasteful as it's unlikely the original unit is being recycled. It's not so much replaceable as it is non-serviceable. Give me something I can fix without chucking half of it in the trash. Several high quality posts rely on standard seal sizes, so it can be done.
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