EDITORIAL
Differentiation - Selling Used, Buying New, And Moving the Industry Forward
Bear vs. Bare
It's safe to say that, as a general trend, the prices for bicycles and bicycle components have entered a bear market. Disguised as temporary discounts, the average advertised price of a brand new performance mountain bicycle today has dropped significantly from a year ago and there are some amazing deals to be found. That applies whether you're looking for a sweet new bike or to update the one you own.
The examples are nearly infinite. I have a couple of friends who've picked up Öhlins RXF 36 forks for 20% off. Oh, sorry, I meant 20% off dealer cost. I'm talking about what's considered one of the top performing premium suspension forks on the market for less than a Lyrik or Zeb Select.
As a friend asked the other day, if I bought an in-stock super-bike for thousands of dollars off list, and the shop owner looked emotional about it, do you think they were sad to see it go for less than they paid for it, or happy to see it go at all?
My answer was, "yes."
What's the best deal I've come across in a brand new bike? The Kona Honzo ESD for 20% off is pretty wicked, with the price dropping from 3800 CAD to 3040 CAD. Only smalls left now though! Photo: Deniz Merdano
The Honzo ESD has wicked geometry as it sits and the build is solid. If you're feeling adventurous, it would love to be single-speeded and it's happy to try an over-fork and angleset setup. Photo: Deniz Merdano
If the world of new bike sales has slid into a bear market, then the used bike market has been stripped bare and debased. Fair enough; why would I buy last year's bike used for 30% off the suggested retail price (SRP) when I can buy it brand new for a similar amount and get all the little bonuses that come with new-new bike day.
Admittedly the season has just hit us, so it may be too soon to be claiming a full rout of the used market. One of my friends noted the other day that he still hasn't had so much as a whiff of a used Kona Unit in his size (he's looking for a 2018 or newer). Leaning into that trend, there look to be a lot of loaded late-model carbon super-duper bikes looking for new homes and comparatively almost zero stalwart steel hardtails like the Honzo ST/ESD or Chromag Rootdown.
Rocky Mountain has some sweet deals on their Altitude platform in carbon and aluminum. Their new models are essentially unchanged but for the colours. Photo: Deniz Merdano
Check out the Altitude 30 Alloy for 3700 CAD with a Zeb Select RC, SDS+ rear shock, and a Deore 12-spd drivetrain or the loaded carbon models for thousands off SRP. That's cash left over to mullet like Graham?! Photo: Hailey Elise
Buying The Bike You Own
I've talked to quite a few recovering serial bike flippers who are staying with their current rig(s) this year. Some of whom have already been mono-rig or sustained poly-rig relationships for a few years now. I'm certain in a few cases it comes down to being in love with their current bikes, but it's also fair to say most folks don't want to see the gap between new and used, even with the new bikes heavily discounted.
You've no doubt heard the line 'mountain biking - as addictive as cocaine and twice as expensive' and it probably comes as no surprised that most of these conversations center around spending money on upgrades. Some are necessary, like replacing parts that would have otherwise become the next owners prerogative, but in many cases it's down to cosmetic or exploratory changes. A cosmetic choice could be some fresh anodized bling, like a stem or seat collar, and on the exploratory front, trying a different brake option has come up quite a bit.
This Yeti SB150 of David's came to mind right away in thinking about amazing rigs versus used resale prices. This bike launched in 2018 and still stacks up against current bikes in the same travel category. Photo: AJ Barlas
Most of the parts aren't current models, from the Fox 36, to the PUSH shock, to the Yeti frame, to the DT Swiss 240 hubs. But all of that stuff, assuming it's been kept in good condition, is fantastic. Photo: AJ Barlas
A great deal used for another rider, or a great deal to buy it from yourself? New bike fever is real, but a few upgrades may be the cure? Check out the rest of the wicked Dream-Builds photos from 2021. Photo: AJ Barlas
Buying the bike you already own isn't rocket surgery. Figure out what it's worth used in it's current state. Determine what it needs in terms of service and components and add that amount. Subtract that number from the cost of the new bike you'd be replacing it with. Now compare the subtotal - the actual cost of the new rig vs. keeping the old rig - with your desire for a new bicycle with whatever geometry or performance or aesthetic improvements creating the draw.
For those that are keeping their bikes, it's been my experience that the next step is to decide what it's going to take to make it fresh. The necessary performance part swaps absolutely, but a degree of cosmetic upgrade or exploratory component changes are, again in my case, a good investment in keeping me happy with my bicycle.
Yes, I know that it's just a seat collar. I say, meet inspiration wherever it finds you.
Folks who've had issues with their dropper posts binding up when their seat collars are tight enough to stop slipping or twisting should definitely check out the twin barrel nut design.
The Pembree DBN seat collar is also for folks who like nice things made well or companies that practice what they pontificate. The aluminum is minimum 75% recycled and even the binder bolt is made in the UK.
I know, it's not purple. I'm trying new things and my friend Dumpster Bear says the Bronze looks good with my Cosmic Lilac powder coat. Personally, the jury is still out. I mean, anodized purple!
Differentiation
It's not all doom and gloom, in addition to folks picking up great deals, new & used, it's possible to draw a straight line from the last big bike industry downturn - '08/'09 - to a lot of neat innovations with bike geometry, 1x drivetrains, dropper posts, and the mass adoption of 29'ers being examples. Companies looking to differentiate themselves to riders in the next couple of years are going to push the envelope with more than hyperbolic marketing.
One positive that I'm seeing already, is the growing talk of transferable warranties. My guess is there won't be a large bicycle company without a transferable warranty scheme by the end of this year. Likewise, look for loyalty programs on the horizon that reward current customers for staying in-brand for their next bicycle purchase.
Bike companies, especially small bike companies who can't stomach heavy discounting or a large quantity of unsold inventory, are going to have to be creative in terms of design, manufacturing, philosophy, and culture. As an example, I'm going to use Pembree and this seat collar they make in England.
Wolf Tooth's B-Rad base is an example of a differentiating product that I bring up quite often. It's not something a lot of folks need but it's the best option for folks looking for expanded frame mounting options.
My Marin Riftzone sadly didn't have quite enough room for two bottles, so I settled for a tall bottle and my bag. My new mule has plenty of room to run two bottles inside the frame, but on the downtube - just like my Waltworks V2.
Yes, a seat collar. I know, most folks will happily use the seat collar that came with their bike unless if it sucks.* I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that 80% of seat collar upgrades are cosmetic, 10% are due to suck, 5% are buying the most affordable part from a company one wants to support, 3% are nice gifts for mountain bikers that are impossible to buy for, and the final 2% are people who somehow managed to f*** up their existing seat collar and need to buy a fancier one in justification.
*breaks, doesn't hold a post in place, clamps a dropper post such that it doesn't move properly, etc.
Now there are a lot of really nice options for boutique small(er) brand seat collars. Chromag, Hope, Wolf Tooth, Thomson, Paul Components, Phil Wood, and Engin all come immediately to mind. I'll give the tie to Chromag and Wolf Tooth for their compact and easy to use quick-release clamps, but how does one choose a bolt-on option?
Ways to differentiate? Why don't more companies that sell great flat pedal shoes make them in kids' sizes? Five Ten has multiple sizes of kids' Freeriders before Size 1. It's no wonder kids use the brand synonymously with 'mountain bike shoes.'
That goes for flat pedals too. Manitou has this figured out with their high performance 20" & 24" kids' JUNIT fork series. They're raising an entire generation of riders that see reverse arch forks as normal.
In addition to a rainbow of colours and a good made-in-house family-owned small shop story, Pembree really leans into their environmental stewardship with sustainable sourcing. They even use bolts made in the UK. They are also not building weight weenie parts so clearly the idea is to reuse, reuse, reuse, in an infinite loop. The main materials they work with are aluminum and steel, so of course recyclability is high. Actually, it's quite neat that the clamp is made with a minimum of 75% recycled aluminum.
But let's say, for argument sake, that folks don't care that their tiny seat collar is carbon-neutral and they're not from East Sussex so 'local' isn't a big driver either. Let's say, like me, they're predisposed to not like the brand because their stems are all 35mm bar clamps and their graphic treatment could be a bit more sotto voce.
Their DBN (Double Barrel Nut) clamp is actually a neat take on seat clamps. It was designed with dropper posts in mind to prevent pinching that can affect performance. The twin barrel nuts being able to rotate means that the stainless steel bolt provides the most consistent clamping force.
Aggressive 29" tires, 1x drivetrain specific bikes, and longer-lower-slacker geometry were all differentiators fired up in the sales stagnation of '08/'09. The first gen Honzo ST changed riding for me. Photo: Dave Smith
If any clothing companies are looking for differentiating ideas, my weatherproof 7Mesh Guardian vest is on its last legs. Before I hack up another jacket, I'd be stoked to see something purpose built. Photo: Hardtail Life
Selling Cycling Components
Is anyone going to buy a Gucci seat post clamp over another because it has two barrel nuts instead of one, or none? Yes. Are people going to buy other premium clamps instead for a variety of other reasons? Yes. Are people going to buy perfectly okay mass-produced seat clamps in a rainbow of colours for significantly less money? Also, yes.
The point is, of course, not the seat post clamp at all, but the model. New or used, bicycle or accessory, it's a buyers market. It's not good enough now to have the best brand or the best product. The small brands manufacturing domestically, to them, have never had the most compelling price to performance ratios and have to make up for it with their story, persnickety production values, and new or niche thinking.
We're into a bear-bare market that's looks good to riders buying new, bad for riders selling used, and it's probably going to be savage for a few brands of bikes and components. It will be interesting to see if, as in the past, we see a faster progression of ideas and better products from companies seeking to differentiate themselves, big and small.
Comments
Ripbro
1 year ago
I’ve always been in the ‘buy the bike you own’ and explore camps. I buy the model that is the best value (deore level) bike and upgrade as I go.
Last year it I explored a new fork and bought a Mezzer Pro, this year its Dominion A4 brakes. My bike has an HG driver and I think linkglide XT is in my future.
I think I have more fun upgrading a bike than buying a new bike each year (not that I could afford that).
I like hunting down deals and getting exactly what I want. If you need to replace something because it breaks you can end up at msrp or a sale on something that isn’t your first choice. I’ve been lucky so far.
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fartymarty
1 year ago
I'd rather build something that's unique than have something off the shelf. Then you can put your own spin on it.
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4Runner1
1 year ago
I see what you did there
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fartymarty
1 year ago
Sorry for the unintentional pun.
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Martin
1 year ago
> I think I have more fun upgrading a bike than buying a new bike each year (not that I could afford that).
> I like hunting down deals and getting exactly what I want. If you need to replace something because it breaks you can end up at msrp or a sale on something that isn’t your first choice. I’ve been lucky so far.
That's my way to do it too! I don't mind buying something a year in advance if I find a great deal on exactly what I want. (Like the Ohlins fork) I'm never happy of a complete build and always end up replacing too many parts, so even if it gets more expensive, I quite enjoy the process.
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
What travel are you running the Mezzer at and how are you enjoying it?
I remember reading a bike mag in the late ‘90s (May have been BikeMag) extolling the virtues of getting a great frame and upgrading other parts as you ride along. It’s certainly stuck with me.
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Vik Banerjee
1 year ago
With a 2018 FS bike I love and my HT geo experiments wound down successfully I'm in the buy the bike you own camp these days. I don't even really have any non-gratuitous upgrades I want to do at the moment. You'd think with all the smart people in the engineering and marketing departments at bike companies they could figure out a way to get me excited enough to throw some money at them, but the steady drip of meh new product announcements is almost comical.
I ride my Surly Krampus almost daily and when that bike was announced along with 29+ tires in 2012 I was yelling "Take my money!!" at the screen. That hasn't happened in a long while. I do get a bit twitchy every time Stooge drops a new frame, but they find a way to save my wallet with each design. Not to mention I'd be replacing the Krampus if I got a Stooge and that's a bit hard to compute.
I do feel for LBSs stuck with stock they can't move. Hopefully everyone gets through 2023 and things settle down a bit next year.
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KavuRider
1 year ago
I feel I have been completely overwhelmed with marketing the last 2 years or so. And none of it makes me want to spend money.
I am perfectly happy with the bikes I have. They do everything I could want and more. I don't think that a new set of $500 cranks or $1200 electronic drivetrain would add anything to my riding experience over what I have now.
I do have an old steel full suspension frame that I am going to build up with my box of used parts. Buy the bike you have!
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ShawMac
1 year ago
Banshee had already stepped up this year with a loyalty purchase program. I think it was 20 or 30% off a new frame for existing owners? Not sure how many took advantage of it. Thankfully I had some financial sobriety and didn't drop many thousand on a Legend frame that I lust over.
I think brand loyalty is an important marketing tool, especially for more boutique brands. Transferable warranty scheme will be big. Some brands (like Banshee) have used a bit of a work around to create brand loyalty by extending deep discounts like crash replacement to used owners who don't get warranty. It got me into a brand new frame a couple of years that I was not even in the market for.
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
25% discount ending March 1st. I think post-bike rush we’ll see companies putting in more permanent versions that have smaller discounts but are always available (with larger discounts on select models).
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Briain
1 year ago
Ha, This article is bad news for me as I have three bikes to sell. But against that, I've got mega deals on the bikes I replaced them with. Good thing I don't consider my bikes investments simply tools to go out and have fun on. The other point I would make is the insanity of buying what is essentially a toy on any kind of credit. It's never fun to owe way more than what you paid for something
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
I saw a meme talking about the relative value of bikes and Bitcoin (“At least you can still ride the bike”) that your post made me think of. Ha.
Playing mountain bicycles in the woods:
I’m very much a proponent of buying the bike you can afford and upgrading it as you can afford to. Maybe that’s coming from a position of privilege now that I can afford reasonably nice bikes, maybe it’s elitist because that’s how I did it when I couldn’t. Maybe it’s ignorant to modern financial realities I don’t understand.
But, I rode a Kona Roast from their scratch & dent with a ‘custom filed’ brake adapter and a single-speeded 70’s road bike (that was my mom’s) and wouldn’t have done it any other way (and then after - oh wow did bike companies used to incentivize staffers to ride their rigs. Got me hooked and here I am today).
———
I know some folks that don’t get it - they got a smoking shop cost deal on their new rig, they aren’t getting pandemic bike rush pricing on their clapped out one even if “but, it’s carbon.”
Good luck with your sales, though!
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Briain
1 year ago
The kind of bike you can get for about 1500 today is insane and it won't be that much better than your 15k superbike. The best observation is when I go to my local bike park I see the kids in groups some are on really nice new bikes and some of the others are on old hand me downs and their all having fun and quite often the kids on the old bikes are the fastest in their groups. Skill trumps tech more often then not
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Flatted-again
1 year ago
This is great, especially the thought that the slowdown of the market could lead to a progression of ideas. I think that it could be helped along by advances in rapid prototyping, easy to access design software, and a bunch of smart, curious people taking up biking in the last few years.
Also, I almost spit out my coffee when I read the caption about the ESD- overforking and an angle set would be wild! That could put it close to a 61.5* hta! Which, I guess for a hardtail is fine.
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
I certainly would try it! With the hardtail I set up <20% sag on flat ground but generally you’re halfway through the travel on anything super steep. My general rule is take whatever HTA you’d want on an FS bike for the same purpose and subtract two degrees.
———
Bike prices crashed in ‘08/‘09 and companies brought them back up with many wholesale shifts - tapered headtubes, rear thru-axles as standard, 1x drivetrains, good 29’ers, mass adoption of tubeless-ready, stock dropper posts on everything, etc - within two-to-three years. It was a crazy amount of change.
I think bicycles are much more established a decade on, but we’ll see. There is some long hanging fruit, like longer rear-centers, but I’m anticipating stuff neater than slightly larger stanchions.
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Flatted-again
1 year ago
Ha, I just emailed a machinist about machining longer ESD dropouts, so if I’m itching for a new bike I think I’ll start there.
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
Neat! If there’s a batch minimum let me know and I’ll put you in touch with at least one interested party.
I wrote something cheeky about Cascade Components doing a Kona slider hop-up kit back in 2021 and had some folks reach out.
I’m positive that wheelbase/rear-center is the next ‘the number’ that people will focus on (HTA, Reach, rear-center).
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Flatted-again
1 year ago
It’s a bit funny that we’re getting close to the designs that Geometron was pushing what, 7, 8 years ago?
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Perry Schebel
1 year ago
yeah, we're (finally) starting to see more size specific cs lengths, but it's being done rather timidly, as the industry does. (ie, here's 3mm more for the jump from med to large). the "stubby chainstays for snappy cornering / climbing / whatever" mantra that was preached forever takes a bit to disrupt.
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
I’d love to see choice. Swap outs like Banshee, or sliders, or even size-specific chainstays but I can install the XL on a medium of I want to. Not just moving the pivot around to effectively grow/shrink the back end.
Enough people love-love super short stays that I’m not looking to take that away - just to have options for those of us who’d prefer a longer rear center.
Sebov
1 year ago
True!
I used to be a bike flipper. Not this year. I‘ll keep on upgrading my bikes and will do some geomertry changes (9point8 slackr).
I like those kind of seat clamps. Mine are from Wolf tooth. Never cared about seat clamps until the stock one broke. No riding because of a f* seat clamp? „Upgraded“ all clamps…
Aaaaaand that‘s why I like NSMB. You just nail it!
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
Cheers! It’s funny how many things are out of mind until they’re in your sights.
I have an acquaintance who always replaces the OE axle on rear of his frames with a nice aftermarket one after having one fail. Long walk out with no fix to save a few bucks just doesn’t make sense to experience twice. I’m not there, but I will be the first time I have a rear axle fail.
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fartymarty
1 year ago
That Prembree collar is sweet, I've been eyeing one up recently. Plus they're local-local (the next county) which nice.
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
The Pembree collar is so sweet. It’s nice to hold and behold. An actually interesting take on a product almost as old as the bicycle itself!?
(It’s ‘just’ a seat collar)
Cosmetically I’d the skirt just a touch longer (to match my Chromag QR - up close the paint shows where the Chromag used to sit) but that’s not going to be a consideration for 99% of riders.
(What do you think of the cosmic-lilac & bronze combo?!)
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mrbrett
1 year ago
More curious about the matching pedals.
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
I will have a teardown and review coming. Have a half dozen or so rides on them. Quite different ‘feeling’ from my Wolf Tooth & NSBillet pedals - at least as far as you can differentiate high-end flat pedals that are about the same size.
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fartymarty
1 year ago
Damn it, I may have to get one now...
I do like my Chromag collar BUT (and it's a big but) they don't do it in pink.
Cosmic Lilac / Bronze - not sure but will have more of a look at it. I'm sure it will grow on me (your bikes do always look really good so I have to trust your judgement). Personally I would have gone pink - the ODI Longneck pushons in pink look amazing and they almost glow in the dark.
I wish Pembree made a 31.8 stem - I may have to email them about it as they look like a great alternative to a Chromag albeit with less air miles.
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
Jury is still out for me too. It’s growing on me but I’m not sure if it looks great or if it looks good-enough and I’m used to it.
It’s a nice looking stem. But I’m sticking with my 31.8 guns.
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fartymarty
1 year ago
Me too on 31.8.
It is a great looking stem tho.... But the RIZA comes in 31.8...
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fartymarty
1 year ago
I couldn't help myself...
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earle.b
1 year ago
For anyone that wants made in the USA and titanium there is a Firefly double barrel nut seat clamp. These are machined by Josh Ogle to watchmaker jewelry level.
https://fireflybicycles.com/components/
It's a really nice piece of bike bling that I don't think anyone will ever notice on my bike, hahah.
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fartymarty
1 year ago
Damn that's nice.
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Lynx .
1 year ago
Really nice, but, Uh NO, can think of a lot of others places I could spend $100 that would do way more for the actual ride of the bike.
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
It is beautiful.
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JT
1 year ago
Dammit! I have a similar design sitting in my flashdrive and a 3d print of it from 2 years ago. Always good to see someone validate my thinking, always a bummer to see em made.
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Cr4w
1 year ago
The Ohlins RXF36 is still on sale for $799USD https://www.jensonusa.com/Ohlins-RXF36-m2-Trail-Air-29-Fork
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
I guess no one wants those spindly little stanchions on a 170mm fork?!
(I kid, chassis stiffness is excellent)
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Martin
1 year ago
Thanks to those people, I bought one last week... and coming for riding 160mm 35mm stanchioned-forks for the last 4 years, it will be absolutely perfect for me. The marketing is strong for 38mm forks, and I was riding 38mm Marzocchi 66s in 2012-2015, but as long as the CSU doesn't creak or snap I'm a happy guy!
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fartymarty
1 year ago
If I was getting a longer travel fork it would be an Ohlins 38DH - I don't see the point of long travel single crown forks.
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Martin
1 year ago
Yep, past 170mm on a 29er I'd definately go double crown. EXT has a 180 and 190mm travel version of their 29er ERA that is still on 36mm stanchions it seems. It starts to get quite long for a single crown fork!
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
Not worried about the stanchion size difference. Many different ways to create stiffness.
But yeah, at a certain travel number (170 to 180mm?) maybe it’s time to embrace a DC setup.
Andrew Major
1 year ago
Bonus of getting to run a direct-mount stem!
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fartymarty
1 year ago
Exactly - a proper stem and a proper stiff fork.
Cr4w
1 year ago
This comment has been removed.
fartymarty
1 year ago
My m2s are currently at 170mm - but yet to be ridden as i'm still waiting on hub pawls and dry trails. They were fine at 160 so don't see 170 being an issue.
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
It’s not like the difference between a 100mm & 120mm fork. 160-170mm is a subtle jump.
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earle.b
1 year ago
Took advantage of that Jenson deal and now have a sweet RFX36 sitting in the garage.
The dilemma now is do I drop it to 160mm to better match my frame, or get cracking on building a new frame to better match the 170mm. Current frame is already a touch too slack at 62.5 with a 160mm Helm MK1. I was going to trim 10mm off the bottom of the headtube with the Helm, doing that and putting on the RFX just puts me back where I started.
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fartymarty
1 year ago
Keep us updated in the Full Suspension forum thread. I'll be keen to see where you get with it. Plus it will be good to see more piccys of your bike.
My 36m2 came back from the tuners at 170mm even though I usually run them at 160. I quite like 160 but will try 150 with the 140 (Murmur). It maybe a good compromise between the smashy 160 and smashed (but lively 140).
Also the m2 is awesome with a coil.
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Briain
1 year ago
Check the axle to crown length. Couldn't find a length for a mk1 helm but the ohlin fork is 17mm longer than the mk 2 which for equal travel is about a degree slacker HA as I understand it
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earle.b
1 year ago
Yes 17mm on the current frame isn't idea unless I was only riding WC DH tracks.
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Lynx .
1 year ago
Damn :-O If I had the cash I'd get one and drop the travel to 130mm for my Phantom, maybe even down to 120mm to try on the Unit - man that would be sweet.
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Curveball
1 year ago
Oh wow, that's a hell of a deal on the Ohlins fork. Unfortunately, I need to sell my old enduro bike before I can buy anything for the new one. And it's just not moving.
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
Just for science, what bike & model year?
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Martin
1 year ago
Thanks for the interesting point of view Andrew! Many media outlets have been talking about this situation, but you bring in a different angle to it!
I bought some parts in the last weeks at price I had never seen in many years. It is a good time to stock up for useful things, but I don't mind riding the flashiest or latest thing at all cost, and I much prefer 40% off an RXF 36 instead of 0% off a RXF 38.
Last week I quickly sold my 2-piston SLX M7000 brakeset (with rotors, adapters, spare pads) that was in great shape for the same price as I paid my new 4-piston TRP Slate EVO brakeset with adapters and rotors. I thought it would take much longer than this, or that I'd lower my price quite a bit, but I was surprised. It must be different for complete bikes though.
I feel like this will be a hard year for many shops and bike companies, but once it's all leveled out, we will probably see the market re-adjust to leaner inventories so that the prices don't fall like that.
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
Cheers! Yes, I’m certain it will all level out after 1-2 years of turmoil. Call it Covid aftershocks, call it a failure to note the change in wind direction, etc.
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finbarr
1 year ago
This is interesting because I’m on the lookout for discounts on:
- XT 12s shifter
- XT 12s cassette
- Fox 36 factory
And can’t find anything! While new & used bikes seem to be tanking in value. I don’t particularly love the specs though. Seems like a lot of brands had parts availability during COVID but kept the prices sky high.
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
Yeah, looking for specific items inflexibly may limit your success, especially since Shimano has only recently caught up with demand.
In addition to the Ohlins I have friends who’ve picked up awesomely priced CaneCreek Helm forks - they’re a fantastic Fox 36 alternative.
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Kyle Dixon
1 year ago
With a freshly built up Propain Tyee, Ill be in the 'buy the bike you already own' camp for this and foreseeably a few seasons.
My '14 Specialized Camber will get some upgrade love this season if I can source both a linkage bearing bearing and bolt kit and a decent used shock for the rear end, or just bite the bullet and get a new Monarch RC3 with the stupid specialized knuckle via S4/Fortnine.
Either way, Im buy once, cry once and run it til it dies. On a gov't salary I cant afford to come down with Newthingitis every season.
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
If I was looking at a new shock for a Camber (or any Specialized from that generation) I’d spend for a BikeYoke link to forever decouple myself from their dumb proprietary yoke.
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Guy Elliott
1 year ago
Not good for the industry but have no need to spend money on bikes stuff at all for the moment due to:
1) built up a personal heathy inventory of 2x redundant spares during the Pandemic (never again will I be forced to use NX due to scarcity )
2) waiting for the current 20% off to become 50% off later this year, which is inevitable.
3) not much new on the market has be excited… (though if an Arrival 130 frameset goes on deep discount sale this could change despite the 157…)
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Blofeld
1 year ago
I don’t quite see a “straight-line” from 2008 to the advancements mentioned. It would probably make for a good story or two to go through the winding path of consolidations and bankruptcies from the last downturn. Cautionary tales, perhaps.
The parts from that era are interesting! Does anyone remember if the 2003 Gravity Dropper was actually any more reliable than a 2010 Reverb? That thing was JUNK. I had a variety of weird bashrings and guides to keep the chain on for diy 1X setups, some of which could get you good and jammed. I never had a Bionicon C.Guide, but I was often envious. Pre-clutch and pre-narrow-wide was often an adventure. It was better than a FD but the 32-34 gear was a bit tall.
The original 2012 Honzo was a gem. I love the copy re the slack 68 deg HA and full DH guide.
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
For example, a lot of suspension-geometry advances were made possible by 1x drivetrains, and SRAM XX1, and then 1x11 trickledown, and then Eagle, all grew out of that time period (post-Hammerschmidt).
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Blofeld
1 year ago
Dropping the FD lets you decrease chainstay length and quack-factor at the same time, no question. Similarly, having a dropper post let’s you steepen the seat angle with less leg interference. I’m seeing those two things more as slow evolutions that would have happened with or without a sales downturn.
The mainstreaming of DW-Link, carbon-everything! ™️ and death of US manufacturing seem more to me like brand/consumer choices resulting from economics. Again, I’d certainly be excited to read more about how it’s all connected.
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Lynx .
1 year ago
Not sure that that's such a good thing, IMHO. Either narrowing the Q-Factor or shortening the crap out of the CS. Since I've been forced onto flats, I've very seriously been made aware of just how wide a Q-Factor I "need" vs just using the standard with clipless pedals and it's about a CM more on each side, now understanding 83mm BBs, which also let you shorten the CS without giving up Q-Factor.
To the short CS, while I enjoyed my first foray into a proper HT with 16.9"/729mm CS back in 2009 with the OG/V1 Banshee Paradox (1st proper 29eer HT, long before Kona even thought of doing anything like that), when I moved to the Prime in 2012 with 17.6/448mm, I then found the boat load of benefits longer CS brings compared to the few of shorter CS.
[Quote=Blofeld]Dropping the FD lets you decrease chainstay length and quack-factor at the same time, no question.[/quote]
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Blofeld
1 year ago
I ride a hardtail with an 83mm bb and 475mm chainstays, so I definitely agree!
I’m over-generalizing, but I think changes over the past 15 years to make bikes more like DH bikes have been net positive and changes to keep bikes the same as road bikes have been net negative.
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
Great way of putting it.
Lynx .
1 year ago
Sweet, now give up the goods, what bike is that?
Have a friend who got a WW made using an 83mm BB and I questioned that in the beginning, but I was strictly a clipped in guy back then, but now that I've been on flats and had my feet find their natural position/width, I definitely would consider an 83mm BB and crank for wider Q-factor, so long as the chainline of the crank isn't wider than 51mm - which IMHO is perfect for a 150/157 rear, OK for 141/148 and basically sucks for 135/142.
Blofeld
1 year ago
@Lynx .: The bike is custom and uses an 83mm shell and 157mm hub to clear a 4” tire. I don’t know of any modern 83mm cranksets with a chainline more inboard than ~57mm. I’d lose too much tire clearance if I tried that setup, so I haven’t hunted that hard, either. Maybe something could be rigged up on a double by using the small ring mount? I’ve seen pedal axle extensions or washers to add to the quack-factor without changing chainline as well.
Lynx .
1 year ago
Thanks for the info Blofeld, haven't actually checked out 83mm crank options and specs, I'll keep that chainline in mind. Thinking though that you could grab one of the 5mm spaced inboard 4 bolt 30t rings and then you'd be back to 52mm chainline, which would still work with a 150 rear.
Yeah, can imagine if you're running that fat rubber that you'd want a wider chainline to clear, with the stays slammed all the way back on the Unit and a 51mm chainline, I've got about 3-5mm of clearance to a 29x3.0" tyre and that's with a 135 rear, so guessing it'd be much better with 141/148 or better yet 150/157.
Andrew Major
1 year ago
I don’t know that any of the changes wouldn’t have happened anyway so maybe it would be better to say that they were rapidly accelerated by a need to interest riders in new bikes.
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Velocipedestrian
1 year ago
Tease!
(love the branding aesthetic).
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
I don’t want to share complete bike pics until I dial it in. Working on the fit! STA is very steep.
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Lynx .
1 year ago
Yup, their STA are so very steep for me also and why I'm always looking, but never buying, especially when you consider that once the fork SAGs, it gets about 1 degree steeper still - beautiful bikes though, great bargains and in steel.
"I don’t want to share complete bike pics until I dial it in. Working on the fit! STA is very steep."
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
It’s a rabbit hole I’ve purposefully gone down to have the VSSTA experience more vividly in mind. I would have stuck with my 73.5-ish preference if not for writing about bikes.
There’s a certain steepness at which it works well for me (steep) and I’m going to play with crank length as well (it’s a combination of VSSTA and people getting used to 155mm-ish arms on e-bikes driving the short-crank craze) and also beg dropper post companies to do offset posts (both for these bikes and gravel bike fit). Baring all that, I do stand a lot to climb anyways! Or I could just ride it where the trails are properly steep.
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danithemechanic
1 year ago
I swear this is the best review of a seatpost clamp ever!
(but you have it on backwards ;)
A quick tought on the (new) bike market: i'm bored out.
I see new stuff making sense only for beginners (the latest gen entry level bikes are crazy good) or people that just want to buy a bike, period.
I don't understand how people like me, working in the bike industry, could be so hyped by it. Personally i'm so proud that i always have to explain wich obscure bikes i have to everybody.
They make me keep loving cycling!
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fartymarty
1 year ago
Yeah gap on the slot IIRC on steel.
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
“swear this is the best review of a seatpost clamp ever!
(but you have it on backwards ;)”
Hahahahaha, thanks! Meet inspiration where it finds you!
I tried it both ways and I think it looks better in this direction. (Clamps great either way). I did think about posting the on-bike shot as a carousel with it both ways and a joke about a poll on which way people like their clamp slot and frame slot to line up.
“I see new stuff making sense only for beginners (the latest gen entry level bikes are crazy good) or people that just want to buy a bike, period.”
No doubt, and some of the values are so good (especially right now) it makes sense to buy a complete with a good frame and upgrade as you go. I keep going back to the Roscoe 7. Aside from the missing sliders on the chainstay (hahaha) I could just upgrade that bike and happily ride it most places.
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fartymarty
1 year ago
If I had the choice I would have the slot at the front - less chance crap getting down the gap. However structural it's better at the back.
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Velocipedestrian
1 year ago
Similar to slot-at-the-front is opposing the gaps, so the slot has less chance to collect crap.
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
Depends on if the frame slot is front or rear?
This was a purely aesthetic choice.
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TheFunkyMonkey
1 year ago
This comment has been removed.
Velocipedestrian
1 year ago
Re: buying the bike you already own, I see a Bonty SE6 on the back of the Darczone, what width is it?
The Rifty literature says it'll fit a 2.6", but standards being what they are... Are you safe from sanding the stays with the SE6 on an i30 rim?
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
It’s a 2.5” SE6 on i30. Plenty of room. They only 2.6” I’ve run on that bike was on a 27” wheel.
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Velocipedestrian
1 year ago
Good beta, cheers!
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
Cheers! Have you tried mulleting the Rifty yet? The BB gets low-low-low-low but it's super fun in corners.
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Velocipedestrian
1 year ago
Not yet, my only 27.5 wheel has an HG freehub.
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XXX_er
1 year ago
I'm sticking with what i got now but 2 years ago post Covid lockdown there were the bike shortages at the LBS so I got a really good price for my Yeti 5.5 which I sold to a doctor who makes $$$$$$ but there were no Yeti's to buy at any price.
In any case I was under the impression the LBS makes alot of $ % wise on the low end bikes but there wasnt much margin on the high priced bikes ?
SO if there isnt much markup are retailers now having to unload excess high end product at any price & losing a lot of $$$ ?
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
In general, talking about bike-shop grade bikes, lower-end bikes have a higher margin percentage and lower margin dollars. Higher-end bikes have a lower margin percentage and higher margin dollars.
Depending on where the shop is located (rent) the cost per sq/ft can eat up a lot of the margin dollars on lower-end bikes if they aren't turning over, which is something bike companies are certainly feeling in terms of warehousing costs and pushing dealers to take inventory.
In any event, making the kind of meaningful discount that could grease the sales slide these days is going to take a big chunk out of the margin. $150 off a budget bike is a substantial amount of margin, and 15% off a high-end bike is a substantial amount of margin %. In both cases, I'd assume any shop paying urban rent and proper wages is not covering their current bills at those prices.
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XXX_er
1 year ago
Bike stores have never made much money off of me but even with an IN I havent got much of deal on either of the higher end bikes I recentlybought.
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Andrew Major
1 year ago
I'm very curious about the make/model and when "recently" was if you don't mind sharing.
As with real estate in a downturn, there are a few properties that seems to hold their value better than others. Perhaps they never had the oversupply issues, or they have a new bike that really cuts above the rest.
I can't think of a ME-Bike that qualifies right now, but I'd be surprised to see folks getting a deep discount on the Trek Fuel EX-E given it's currently the clear leader in its category of E-Bike.
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XXX_er
1 year ago
The 2018 yeti 5.5 and more recently the cheap ( relatively speaking ) Bullit 2yrs ago which was right in the middle of the bike shortages, basicly it shows up, shop bro sends me a pict and it was cha-ching moment without riding it
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Steven Hambleton
1 year ago
I'll be picking up a Pembree seat collar when I visit the UK this Christmas :)
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