canyon spectral ON review
Review

Canyon Spectral:ON CFR LTD eMTB

Photos Hailey Elise unless noted
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Canyon Spectral:ON CFR LTD

There are a few decisions in life that I’ve made that led me here. Some good, some not, but none more important than the fact that Canyon’s New spectral:ON CFR LTD is an extremely pricy eMTB that I won’t be able to afford. Currently the Spectral:ON family is not available in Canada. In USA it is available as the CFR version but without the Rockshox Flight Attendant equipped LTD. The Flight Attendant system is unique and complex enough that we featured it on it’s own HERE.

The price of this bike as it sits is 11,000 EUR or 16,000 CAD right now. Take a moment, scream into your pillow, take a chill pill and come back to this review after your knee jerk instinct to yell at me about this has subsided.

If a direct-to-consumer brand like Canyon has to charge this kind of money for this, I'd love to see one on the shop floor price from other brands just to have a good chuckle.

So what does 16,000 CAD get you?

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The Canyon Spectral:ON makes you feel all funny inside.

Screen Shot 2023-02-13 at 9.24.07 AM

Some geometry numbers to look at.

What You Get

A heck of a lot of blinking, carbon-weaving, electron-spitting goodness. If you picked the equivalent at a car dealership and checked every option on your spec sheet, this is what you'd get. With that kind of perspective, let's see if this powerhouse of an eMTB is worthy of roaming the North Shore.

The Spectral:ON is a 155mm rear wheel travel, full carbon, mixed wheel, hybrid, mullet trail bike. The 29” DT SWISS HXC 1501 carbon front wheel sits between the legs of a 150mm RockShox Lyrik Ultimate Flight Attendant, wearing 2.5” Maxxis Assegai Exo MaxxTerra, the rear 27.5” wheel sits between one of the burliest rear triangles I’ve ever seen draped in 2.6” wide Maxxis DHR II MaxxTerra EXO+.

The 4-Bar, Horst Link suspension layout puts the rear link above and in front of the rear axle. The main pivot sits slightly behind and well above the bottom bracket.

The plush ride this setup provides can not be overstated. With a Shimano EP8 motor nestled between the cranks, there is no need for pedalling efficiency in the traditional sense and very little reason to worry about anti squat values.

For a 5’9”(175cm) rider, the Medium frame has a very familiar fit. The 460mm reach and 440mm rear centre are both within millimeters of my pedal bike and this feels like home. The Spectral:ON has a tall stack for a bike in this travel range at 643mm with a 125 mm head tube, puts the rider in a very upright position. Sitting beside a 170mm-forked Orbea Rallon, the one-piece bars sit an inch taller on the Canyon. Fortunately, I like tall, stack bikes on the terrain we tend to ride on the North Shore.

TheFlight Attendant-equipped Rockshox suspension took a few extra steps to set up and dial in, but the plush feeling under the mass of the Spectral:ON was evident right off the bat.

deniz canyon spectraol:ON

eMTBs do not get more playful than this!

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Ideal playground for a day on the Canyon.

The Canyon Spectral:ON was shipped to me from Germany directly. From the moment I received the shipping notification to the moment the bike showed up at my door was less than a week. If you are ordering a bike for yourself from Canyon, this is great news. The timing was important. BCBR Mega Volt was in a few days and I was gone for over a month on the road afterwards. Shipping bikes that have big batteries in them is tricky and Canyon shipped the bike without a battery and the US headquarters were to ship the 900Wh battery separately. As it turns out, you can’t just pack up and ship a massive Li-ion battery across the border and the plans to race the Spectral at Mega Volt came crashing down. Which brings up the issue of travelling with an eMTB. The safety regulations behind high capacity batteries are no joke and no airline is going to let you board.

I am always a little nervous when big ebike batteries are charging around the house. I don't see any reason for this Canyon to go up in flames, but one has to be careful with the health of the electronics on their bikes.

deniz merdano canyon spectral on cfr ltd 35

This 900 wh battery is the thinnest on the market.

Terrain

Then I started thinking where and when I would ride the Spectral. With no conflicts in schedule to carve out a time to ride, I started to look at Cam and Trevor for ideas to utilize the Canyon. I had been missing out riding with the boys on a few occasions where they would jump on their big battery bikes and ride all day until they drained the last electrons from their bikes. They would climb into the alpine where it would take half a day to get to for bare-legged pedaling. The FOMO can be a terrible drug and I felt it right in my chest.

Doing multiple laps on hard to reach trails also had a strong appeal with this much power on tap. Skyrocketing gas prices and environmentally consciousness hitting a peak made me think I could live on this bike and put thousands of kilometers on the clock by riding it everywhere. There was another problem however: this German bike that supposedly came from an advanced civilization, had a 25km/h speed limit.* On the trails this wasn’t a deal breaker but on the road, commuting and heading to the trails, it was unbearably slow. Watching Cam and Trevor pull away at 32km/h broke my heart and killed my spirit. What good was an ebike if I couldn’t even take it up to 32km/h? I just rode my gravel bike to work instead.

*EU regulations limit ebikes to 25 km/h and they take this very seriously

Not being able to find a source to hack my Euro klunker to bring it to Canadian road speed standards has been a major buzzkill and limited my riding. But the odometer says 900+ km and I have a good idea how that 900km went on the most expensive Canyon you can buy.

7P8A0775

With traction not at a premium, the wide DHR II on the rear did its job on the climbs

I like 27.5” rear wheel bikes. They are fun and satisfying to corner with and in the steeps, they stay clear of your butt. What I don’t love is when the trails are flatter but still chunky, I need to keep pedaling to maintain speed. On a powered bike, this is far less of an issue. The Canyon's smaller rear wheel suits its intentions. The 2.6” Maxxis DHR II loves clawing its way up through technical trails. 440mm chainstays are not extreme but they create an ultra stable platform on the size medium chassis. The smaller rear wheel initiates its arcs a smidgen wider than the 29” front wheel and settles into a slowmo worthy oversteer just about whenever you want. The relatively light weight of the bike amongst its peers makes it one of the most playful eMTBs I’ve thrown a leg over.

This playfulness can trigger confidence in terrain where quick direction changes are necessary. Combined with a faster rebound, the Canyon loads into the suspension very well during a scandi flick and a quick left-right-left

7P8A0945

I found the bottom of the fork a few times before I added more tokens. I would prefer a HSC dial instead.

With a heavier bike underneath, the centre of gravity drops a few inches and the bike starts to dance on the singletrack. Flat pedals are happy on the Canyon and there is no fear of bouncing around and off the pointy pins. Not every suspension platform caters to flat pedals this well. I switched between Oneup Composite Flats and Crankbrothers Mallet E Pedals frequently during the testing period and enjoyed the ride characteristics equally.

The bottom bracket sits at a ground-scraping 320mm on the Canyon. That's all fine and dandy if the BB shell was the lowest point on the bike. Unfortunately, there are 2 more inches of motor and cover below the BB that makes the Canyon a tough bike to pedal over rough stuff. That kind of BB height numbers will mess with your head on breakover angle moves. Not wanting to high centre on the plastic motor cover, I used the quick burst of power from the Shimano EP8 to wheelie drop just about everything. 165mm cranks are still on the longer side and on a low bb eMTB like this, 155mm cranks would be appreciated.

7P8A0912

The low centre of gravity makes this bike a cornering master.

E-Motoring

The Shimano motor engages quickly, and delivers power very smoothly. There were no unexpected surges of power when wheelie-ing the bike and the delivery of energy seemed very organic for lack of abetter term. The assist levels available with the EP8 could be broader. ECO mode has plenty of power and pretty much equalizes your output to a competitive XC rider, which is a lot. I’d get the E-tube app and reduce the power of ECO mode slightly. Trail mode, which I ended up using the most, has almost as much power as BOOST but in shorter spurts. Again, I’d like a little less power from the trail mode but longer duration of power when I am off the pedals. The BOOST mode is the most output you can get and is plenty powerful with the 27.5” rear wheel. On wide open forest service roads and singletrack it’s amazing, but as soon as things get tight and twisty, you better be ready to grab a handful of brake riding uphill. Learning new skills has been the most fun part of riding full-powered eMTBs.

The motor is not without its flaws and I found out the biggest one on my first outing. During a deep water crossing (deep enough to submerge the axles) the electricity went out and I was left standing in knee deep glacial water watching my buddy with his Bosch-powered bike pedal away. Luckily it was still summer, so we dismantled as much as we could with the tools at hand to find the short. The motor itself is sealed well enough and I knew the problem was somewhere between the battery and the motor, but 20 kms away from home with minimal tools was not the place to figure it out. We did what every person with a heathy, problem-solving mind would do and engaged in some psychedelics and pulled out the spare tube to use as a tow rope. With a dead battery, the Canyon pedaled better than I expected. I’ve always liked the EP8’s drag-free nature leaving you with only the weight of the bike to deal with.

At home, more ports came undone and the problem was the connector on the cable that mates the charge port to the motor. The Shimano engineers decided that adding a separate charging port to eBike systems is silly talk and decided to come up with a magnetized plug to connect to the motor, or the charger to the battery. The motor is never connected to any power source if the battery is charging. When you are done charging, you simply connect the motor to the charge port and you are off to the races.

As sound as it seems on paper, the idea does not work well in practice. First of all, the cable that connects the battery to the motor has a multi-pin connector on the motor side that takes some horrendous routing before it clicks in. The routing creates tension on the connector and allows for water to get in on deep submersions, killing the motor mid stream. I imagine this design decision was made to allow for multiple frame designs and shapes to work with the EP8 by allowing the cable to be routed however the bike manufacturer wants. I really would have liked a hard-wired connection or a better type of plug. Shimano has a way to go before they figure out solid electrical connections. A bit of a missed mark I have to say.

The magnetized end of the cable has a cover that matches the contour of the full carbon Spectral. The magnet port is the same one on Norco eMTBs but for some reason, I could not get a charge going with Cam’s charger even though it mated perfectly to the Canyon's battery. I blame the software in the battery for this. So just because the plug fits, doesn't mean you will not get a charge going. I didn’t appreciate this at the time when I was far from home with a dead battery but I understand the implications of wrong voltage charging in this day and age. Nobody wants a swelling 900Wh battery in their home ready to spit fire. Always use the correct, undamaged charger.

PXL_20221123_204809613.NIGHT

This should not have happened. An aluminium cover would be a better application.

Mitigating damage from rough riding is a tough one to negotiate around here. With a million opportunities to wreck yourself and your bike, the Canyon took some damage on its 900km journey. The first blow was to the motor cover skid plate. The lowest hanging part on the bike being made out of hard plastic is great for weight savings but not for bouncing off rocks and logs. An aluminum bash guard would be a better choice.

The 150mm Lyrik has been trouble-free for the most part. Inflated to 80 psi, it suited the agile nature of the Canyon well for the first few months. You can read about my detailed look into the Flight Attendant system here. When the Lyrik decided not to hold its oil and control its rebound after a few Whistler Bike Park laps, SRAM rebuilt it with a 160mm airshaft. This was a welcome change in many ways. I asked if 170 was possible, but I was told to chill and learn to like the 160. With 10 more milimeters up front, I had to up my air pressure to 95psi. With slightly higher BB numbers and a slacker head angle, the Canyon was ready to do silly things on the North Shore.

7P8A1024

All play, no work... Not quite how these things go, but the Canyon is a seriously fun bike.

With a single glance, there are lot of glaring issues that will trigger the most liberal mountain bike commenter on the Canyon. From the one-piece bar stem combo to the headset-routed brake cables, there is much to pick on. Some rightfully and some rather unfairly. I didn’t love the angles on the one piece bar all that much. No matter what I did, I found my hands sliding inboard every ride. I moved my levers around, angling them flat and then less so, but no matter what I did, I didn’t get along with the shape as much as I did on the Bontrager RSL bars. The grips were decent and the Code RSC brakes were powerful enough to stop the big heavy bike on the steeper trails. I ran MTX Gold pads exclusively during the test period. 203mm Centerline rotors did an excellent job dissipating heat and maintaining consistency as well.

PXL_20230104_170635787

I love me an e-saw for discreet and noise-free trail building.

PXL_20230213_032238319

Canyon's included torque wrench and socket bits.

The Canyon:ON really came in handy on trail building days, saving valuable hours of walking with heavy tools. I filled my pack with a chainsaw and a day's worth of supplies and climbed my way up to the trails right from the house, did whatever building necessary and partied down just as efficiently. The Canyon was put to work for enjoyment, photo work and trail building during its time with me.

The fancy carbon DT Swiss HXC 1501 Carbon rear wheel somehow de-tensioned its spokes around the 700 km mark. I’ve never seen a carbon wheel do that before and surely didn't expect it from part of a $3,000 DT wheelset. The spirited riding and general abuse must have done the spokes in. There were no lost spokes or as much a wobble in the rim. A quick re-tensioning and everything was good again. It was quite strange for this to happen on these extremely expensive wheels.

The pivot hardware did not loosen any more than 1/16th of a turn during the test period. That's a great track record for a bike that comes pretty much fully built out of the box. Speaking of the box, it was a beast of monumental proportions with extremely well thought out packaging to survive the most careless UPS drivers. For a bike with 4 AXS batteries, it came with 3 chargers and a user's manual thick enough to use as a wheel chock. A decent torque wrench came included with the bike, like all Canyons we have tested, along with a bag of goodies for the home mechanic to put the bike together. I applaud that.

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Final Thoughts

The Canyon Spectral:ON CFR LTD is a tech wiz eMTB without a doubt. It is not made for the regular oe who just wants to hop on and do some quick laps to beat nightfall. There is prep that needs to be done with all the batteries begging for attention and the occasional tear down to see if anything has come loose. But Canyon has nailed what they wanted to achieve with the frame design with a low-profile, high-capacity battery on a low CG bike, it is as playful and fun as a North Shore worthy eMTB could get.

Are there things I would do differently? Heck yes. I’d love to see a BOSCH CX RACE motor on this platform as I prefer the on-trail behaviour of the Bosch system. The power delivery and duration allows for a more aggressive climbing experience. Maybe shy away from the Flight Attendant as it doesn’t seem to do anything good for the ride on this bike. It's a good thing the regular Spectral:ON CFR exists.

I love the idea of the slim battery and mixed wheel frame. With a longer fork and better fitting handlebar and stem combo, we would have a winner of a bike to ride on the North Shore and beyond.

Remember, the rider on that eMTB could be heading up into the forest to build a trail that you'll eventually poach. Respect all those who ride bikes in the forest except for the assholes who blast their playlist for everyone to hear while tailgating you up the single track climber. Do not be that guy or gal.

Canyon Spectral:ON CFR LTD

denomerdano
Deniz Merdano

5'8"

162lbs

Playful, lively riding style

Photographer and Story Teller

Lenticular Aesthetician

www.blackbirdworks.ca

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Comments

bailey100
+15 Shoreboy Joseph Crabtree Pete Roggeman Deniz Merdano Adrian Bostock Kristian Øvrum Cr4w BarryW OldManBike Nick Maffei chris2 Peter Leeds Andy Eunson DanL skua SixZeroSixOne ZigaK Dogl0rd utopic 4Runner1 Tadpoledancer Sethimus XXX_er

First off, I think this is the best site on the net for bike news and reviews hands down.

I'm not going to go elsewhere for my news because NSMB has made the choice to cover ebikes.

I also know this will get hugely down voted but I'm ok with that.

So,

What is there was one site, just one site that decided that ebikes are a different sport. That although they represent a growing sector of the market, there are issues associated with them that will negatively effect the sport we love and for that reason, we've decided not to cover them.

I'm not a purist, exclusionist, etc.

But I'm seriously sick of ebikes.

Reply

pete@nsmb.com
+7 Jotegir Andrew Major JakeRedrum cxfahrer oudiaou Andy Eunson ElBrendo DanL utopic

Hi William,

I don't think those down votes are imminent! We love that our readers and commenters are generally civil, open-minded folks. Thank you for the feedback, and for expressing it in a balanced way. I'm happy to address it.

We thought long and hard about how to handle the e-bike issue. It goes back as far as 2014 or so for us, which is when Cam first tested and wrote about an electric Haibike. The reception was, predictably, not friendly from many readers, but it was so new that we felt compelled to get a bit of saddle time with one and share what that was like. A lot of people were not ready to weigh both sides of that argument and although we love a good debate, we didn't (and still do not) have an agenda when it comes to e-bikes. 

To most people, we're a website, and it's not technically wrong to call NSMB a blog, but at heart, we consider ourselves a magazine. When the idea came to Cam in the late 90s, a print mag was what he had in mind. I say that because it informs how we approach topics like technology, the culture of the sport, and, importantly, news. We don't try to be the source of all news - there are other places for that - we focus mostly on the broad strokes. And as far as the MTB world goes, e-bikes were news in 2014, and they are now, too. I know some people will say they're not mountain bikes, but I've never heard anyone make a good argument to that effect. E-bikes and mountain bikes are far more similar than they are different, and no amount of calling them bro-peds or scooters or motorbikes is going to change that, like it or not.

In 2014 we decided it wasn't the right time to try to force e-bike content on the reader, so we sat back and bided our time a little bit. Part of that wait and see approach was due to uncertainty over some of the issues and negative effects you alluded to. Part of it was that we didn't want to have the e-bike debate every time we published another article (but we ended up having it dozens of times anyway!).

None of this is to say that there aren't issues and potential negative consequences when it comes to e-bikes. Without descending into an exhaustive list of every potential pitfall, I'll just say that for all the hand-wringing and concern about e-bikes leading to revoked trail access or massive user conflicts, at the very least I think we can agree that the doomsday scenarios are not playing out the way we all feared. 

To take it a step further, though, I have yet to hear about a single e-bike-related case of revoked trail access. There are, surely, user conflicts out there involving e-bikes, but I haven't been made aware of many high profile ones, or even many at all, or at least not more than already exist between regular mtn bike riders and other trail users. I'm not pretending they aren't happening, however our sport was defined in some way by user conflicts from the beginning - some would say that's what galvanized mountain biking advocacy in so many places and forced it to evolve from barely present to oftentimes very organized and powerful. That doesn't make it ok, however it does make it not new, and not attributable to e-bikes any more than it was already an issue.

I'm also not pretending there isn't an environmental issue at stake here. However, it would be pretty rich to take a hardline stance on that but not on, say, shuttling, or bike parks, or any of a number of other problems mountain biking inflicts on the environment, including - and a lot of people want to ignore this fact - good ol' fashioned mountain bikes. 

No matter what we all ride, we're hyper-privileged people with free time and good health, so to think of our sport as anything other than a luxurious pastime reserved for people in the top 10 or so percentile in global wealth would be naïve. From thirty thousand feet up, the difference between a $3,000 mtn bike and a $16,000 one is almost irrelevant. We accept these facts, but that doesn't have to mean we like them. When we can, we call attention to them, even better if we can shine a light on something to try to effect some positive impact.

Ignoring e-bikes or pretending they don't exist won't help any of those issues, perceived or real. We're not here to tell you that you need one, or that they're the future of the sport, just like we're not here to tell you that you need wireless shifting or suspension controlled by computers - or a frame made out of carbon fiber. Those things are all, however, part of our sport, and therefore part of our mandate to report on. Of course we could choose not to review e-bikes, but the fact is that many of us quite like them and can see that there are a lot of positives associated with e-bikes. Mostly, they're really fucking fun to ride, and fun is what got us into mtb and therefore NSMB in the first place.

After all that, though, I totally get where you're coming from and I don't blame you a bit. I'm just glad you're going to stick around and keep reading. And please always feel welcome to comment and provide feedback. These discussions are important to have (I promise I'm about to put down the mic so someone else can speak).

My reply to you became a bit of a manifesto, sorry for the length and I hope it doesn't read like a rant. But I figured some of our readers may want to know a bit more about our perspectives and how we reach them.

Pete

Reply

Jotegir
+3 Pete Roggeman DanL Dan

1. What the heck, isn't there a character limit on this site for us mortals? I swear I've bumped into it before. 

2. Thanks for taking the time on that one Pete. Transparency in media, even on an 'online magainze' we visit for fun, ought to be cherished these days.

Reply

pete@nsmb.com
+1 Dan

There was, and I hated it, so I asked Niels if he could fix it, and he did! 

Always happy to discuss how and why we do things. Even better if someone appreciates it. Thanks for chiming in today.

Reply

oldmanbike
+4 chris2 Joseph Crabtree skua Dogl0rd utopic 4Runner1

William's comment captures my views exactly.

I'm a longtime nsmb fanboy despite having never set foot (set tire?) on the Shore. I'm not going anywhere either.

But, in my view, the decision to cover ebikes is a serious misjudgment. And, yes, it colors how I view the site as a whole. It limits my interest in participating and contributing more. None of the Pete's earnest book-length defenses are ever going to change that. Ebiking isn't my sport and it never will be.

Reply

sea2sky
+4 4Runner1 Deniz Merdano skinnyboy Charlie P-t Dan utopic

If you ever encounter a mental and/or physical degenerative issue that no amount of physical fitness can deter, and it limits (or deprives) you of one of the few things (MTB) that brings you joy and/or balance in life, you'll be pouring over eBike reviews. 

Never say never.

Reply

monsieurgage
+7 Joseph Crabtree Velocipedestrian Kristian Øvrum Todd Hellinga chris2 Dogl0rd utopic

I think if we put e-bikes into an, "environmentally conscious" category then we need to be honest with ourselves.  Replacing cars great!  However, adding batteries to a hobby sport is decidedly in the negative column.  I think Trek did the math on how many km one would need to ride in lieu of their car, not just rides you would already do on your bike, in order to offset the carbon emissions of adding a (mostly unnecessary) battery to bikes.

Finite rare minerals and resources.  Should we add them to the sport we readily and happily performed pre-E or save them for other initiatives?  Do we need the e-bike tool for all jobs?

Deniz did clarify this in his article but all to many discussions green wash e-bikes because they are electric. 

P.S.

My WR1 rims detension, tis the nature of bashing the beast, but they always stay true.  In my experience they are worry free even when sorely neglected.  Did your wheels go out of true as well?

Reply

denomerdano
0 4Runner1 Merwinn Joseph Crabtree chris2

The wheels never went out of true, as the main selling factor for carbon hoops for me. 

I too want battery free riding experience in theory but the fruit is way too tasty. Axs derailleur and seatpost, enough power to deal with all the uphills on Cumberland downhill trails is way too tempting...

Reply

monsieurgage
0

I just punish myself by refusing to upshift and raise the post although both are sensible in the Cumby DH scene. 

Wall meet my head. Head, this is a wall.

Reply

RayFreeman
+5 4Runner1 Deniz Merdano Jotegir Pete Roggeman Dan

I had been riding commuter e-bike systems for almost 20 years and was e-MTB curious, but was concerned about the spend. In 2020, I almost quit mountain biking due to chronic knee and back pain and landed on a Spec Turbo Levo SL Comp. This bike was a revelation (especially after a few upgrades: drivetrain, brakes). Fast forward to the summer of 2022 and I found my pain issues had all but disappeared after many assisted rides. I was so stoked, I got a Spec Enduro to round out my riding experiences. I now ride the Enduro about 80-90% of the time, and save the SL for quick solo outings or when I'm feeling my near 60 years. Awesome to have the luxury of choice between these two rides. Yes, new versions and technologies are emerging (some to be avoided), but I am glad I didn't wait for the 'perfect' e-bike to be invented...it doesn't exist yet and probably never will. Getting an e-MTB healed me an allowed me to enjoy regular MTB riding again. I also find that riders here on Vancouver Island barely bat an eye to anyone else on an e-mtb. Anyone on any type of bike can be a jerk...or courteous.

Reply

Jotegir
+2 Deniz Merdano Ray Freeman

That's a really cool rehab story, thanks for sharing. You aren't alone, either. There's a lady in my community who attibutes a large part of her success against serious cancer with being able to get out on her Rocky Powerplay. Another guy lost a stupid amount of weight on a kinda crummy e-hardtail and has similarly switched to regular full suspension bikes full-time.

Reply

Tadpoledancer
+3 Cr4w cxfahrer Deniz Merdano

Great review! At some point I think I’ll add an e-bike to my life, but to me it still seems worth it to wait it out a couple of years to let the tech mature a bit more. Especially considering the price of entry.

Reply

craw
+1 Merwinn

I'm not anti e-bike but I am definitely pro 'I expect near perfection for $16000'. The best parts, clever features, unquestionable reliability and consistently great ride experience with very very few caveats.

Reply

denomerdano
+3 Merwinn Cr4w Dan

Isn't it interesting that the most complicated cars seem to break down more than the simple variants?

I have a neighbor with an Audi S8 V10 from 2008 and he tells me it's $1000 everytime he drives it. A luxury, performance machine. 

Do you not consider Flight Attendant a Clever feature? Or code rsc and dt swiss wheels the best parts?

What would your $16000 build look like?

Reply

shoreboy
+8 william bailey Metacomet Joseph Crabtree Deniz Merdano Jerry Willows Velocipedestrian trumpstinyhands utopic

My $16,000 build wouldn't have a motor, and would likely be two bikes instead of one.

Excellent comparison with the S8 V10. One of the highest depreciating money pits in the used car market. Id say that would be the case for this Canyon as well. High cost of entry, expensive to maintain and huge hit on depreciation if re-sale is of any concern to you.

Reply

craw
+10 Cam McRae Niels van Kampenhout Joseph Crabtree Hbar Velocipedestrian Tremeer023 Kristian Øvrum Todd Hellinga BarryW utopic

It's all relative I guess. I have no desire to put batteries or motors on my bike and I'm not really impressed by turning a bike into a moped to do more down laps. I don't get any satisfaction from ebike climbing; turns out a good deal of my ride pleasure comes from climbing under my own power.

I'm also stridently anti the internet of things and our current societal obsession with putting batteries and motors and lights into ever single household object.

I'd be impressed by an ebike that weighed less than 40lbs that could get me from east van, up and down two mountains and home again on a single charge, to truly free me from my car.

Reply

craw
+5 4Runner1 Todd Hellinga Shoreboy Andy Eunson DanL

I should also add that a $16000 bike shouldn't suffer from leaky connections or an easily broken cover that should have been made out of a tougher material. $16000 means their design and testing is way way way past such things. $16000 should mean perfection with no excuses and certainly not using the consumer as a product tester.

Reply

cxfahrer
0

No problem with e-bikes, but as the Spectral 125 cf7 (Pike Select, GX, carbon) goes for 2500€ again I would always opt for such a light trail bike to make the way up easier instead of buying such a complex heavy monster  for 6000€ or more that can only be serviced at the shop.

Reply

denomerdano
0

Light trail bike vs eMTB comparison is a one that comes up often with the group. The scale sits firmly in the middle for the most part

Reply

Jotegir
0

I'll add another point in the middle because to me, they're different tools for different jobs.  

If I want to ride my light trail bike and ride trails I would normally pedal to access, I am going to reach for a regular bike 100% of the time. 

Ebikes are for stupid/absurd adventures, places you'd never ride a regular bike like former motocross zones,  and adding some flair to commuting.

Reply

LoamtoHome
0

one of the local shop owners said you should rotate your ebike every 2 years....  lol.

Reply

shoreboy
+3 Jotegir Joseph Crabtree Tadpoledancer Cr4w Rick C

Just another note, I'm not sure its the best idea to communicate that one of your contributors is riding an unrestricted e-bike on the trails.

Reply

denomerdano
+1 Cam McRae Rick C Joseph Crabtree

Fair, but funny thing about that is, he commutes an hour each way on it.. everyday. It's on his commuter.

Reply

shoreboy
+2 Jotegir Joseph Crabtree Velocipedestrian Rick C

So he just rode it to the trailhead and then left? He didnt ride it on the trails? Im not sure I understand your angle here. If you are trying to promote responsible use of e-bikes on this platform (which I assume is one of your goals), I would suggest you don't encourage the use of unrestricted (illegal) e-bikes.

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denomerdano
+1 Rick C

As in "he commutes to Richmond and back on the roads with the cars"  still, I get your point and you are right..

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RickC
-1 Joseph Crabtree

I de-restricted mine so i could quickly commute to the trails. no way im exceeding 32kph on the trails.   commuting fast allows me to skip putting the bike in the truck to transport it. It's really a non issue.

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Jotegir
+2 Shoreboy 4Runner1 Cam McRae Velocipedestrian william bailey Peter Leeds

I am a strong advocate for Ebikes for both trail and commuter use. In British Columbia, I think the proliferation of ebikes has the potential to create the greatest net-win situation in the Province's history of mountain biking. I watched hundreds of people (who were not 'core' before) come into the shop, pick up expensive ebikes, and then get hooked. So what's different? These people are at the point in their lives where they have money, political connections, time, and advocacy power that we've never had before. Dirtbags like me could never make those connections or have that kind of influence. Local riding associations should be salvating at the mouth. 

But this relies on these people being able to approach their friends and connections and have conversations about their eMTB/eCommute experiences without their friends being tainted by stories and experiences of unrestricted ebikes crashing down on them on the trails or riding on sidewalks. If we don't police ourselves, there's risk that unrestricted e-bikes get lumped in with the SURONs fake e-moto crowd. And then we lose this golden opportunity to change trail access for the better for all MTB riders forever. 

So frankly, if I had a friend who was scooting around on an unrestricted ebike on the trails, I wouldn't be spreading that news - or worse, publishing my apparent approval of the practice.

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LoamtoHome
+3 XXX_er Rick C Dogl0rd

not sure you can faster than 32km/hr on any trail on the North Shore.  You certainly not pedaling a trail at that speed.  Having the stupid Surons on the trail network is a different conversation.

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pete@nsmb.com
+3 Shoreboy Rick C XXX_er

Actually, I think if it's easy enough to make an e-bike unrestricted, it just may be our duty to write about that. Not a how-to, but a look at what the consequences are (legal, moral, logistical). Again, we can't just hide from this stuff. It's here, so we have to have the conversation.

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shoreboy
0

I would agree that having the conversation is a good idea. It was also why I pointed out that having one of your contributors singled out as riding an unrestricted e-bike may not have been the best idea.

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rabob128
0

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rabob128
0

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lev3000
+3 Jotegir 4Runner1 Niels van Kampenhout XXX_er Dogl0rd

What a lot of grumpy people!  Cheer up everyone, Spring is nearly here 😁

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khai
+2 Deniz Merdano bde1024

One point on the bashguard - aluminum bashguards "stick" to rocks and get hung up.  They're used in moto but most people who are into really technical riding prefer plastic as it will glide rather than catching.  This bike just needs a better plastic, harder and more appropriate to the use case.

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denomerdano
0

Better plastic but I'd still rather see aluminium perhaps covered in plastic.

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XXX_er
0 Jotegir Joseph Crabtree

You must have REALLY hit something to crack that skid plate ? Riding in the fall thru a carpet of  leaves I couldnt see the rocks so i hit a lot of them  but nothing like that happened . What happens to me is I bash all the pins off my pedals because the tendancy is to just keep peddling to keep the motor on the boil so I  hit a lot of stuff

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denomerdano
0

Alot of low speed, log drops in my neck of the woods that you bash over with the bash guard or chainrings. I mostly did my contacts during flat pedal rides. I just can't help but imagine a better, more robust solution than this seemingly fragile plastic one.

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XXX_er
0

I know I read somewhere about  an aftermarket  CF bash plate for the EP8

I did so many pedal strikes it was affecting pedal traction so I bought another pair of chesters but  I took the pins out of one side and so I have another set of pins and its not so nasty sounding when I hit

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BarryW
+2 Kristian Øvrum Joseph Crabtree chris2 Peter Leeds utopic XXX_er Rick C 4Runner1

Electric bicycles are motorized bicycles, also know as 'motorcycles'. 

Really wish we could stick with mountain biking on here. 

As for the issue Pete brought up that because ebikes and bicycles basically use the same parts so they are all bikes is silly. 

Motocross bikes use tubeless tires, double crown forks, chains, sprockets, hydraulic (non-powered) brakes, spoked wheels. How come they aren't considered the same? You only believe the ebike story because it's being sold by bike brands. 

Why aren't you okay with a SurRon on the trails? And how can you consider them different? Because you need to pedal yours? I can guarantee you wouldn't be okay with a gas powered moped on mtb trails. 

Bicycles don't have motors. Mountain bikes aren't motorized. That's a different (and quite possibly delightful sport) but it isn't bicycling.

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RickC
-1 4Runner1 HulaOtter utopic

Nice gatekeeping there bud. Let us know in xx years after your first heart attack, your knees are shot, but you still yearn to shred a little. This is pedal assist. that is the difference. its a matter of power. ebikes assist only. its a giant leap in power to motorcycles. If you can't see that you are just ignorant.

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joseph-crabtree
-1 utopic Rick C 4Runner1

Since most e-peders I see are in the 25-45 range your defense is weak at best. Ignorant to his point for sure.

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GB
+1 utopic

Brand new KTM 125 SX dirt bike .

9000$

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denomerdano
+2 4Runner1 Sandy James Oates Sethimus utopic

The truck to take it to the trails or the track $60000

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GB
+1 utopic

Or put on / off road  tires on it .no need for a truck . Yamaha makes a sweet street able enduro bike . Ride dirt bike only trails . Actual single track for motorcycles.   There is eagle mountain.  Squamish , Sumas mountain.  All have trails built for dirt biking . 

But please don't ride your mountainbikes on the dirt bike trails . 

I live on the North Shore . Most mountainbikes are carried in trucks . I think riding from home is a rare occurrence or not done by most mountainbikers . 

I have no petrol or electric cage . But I am seriously  considering a Damon electric motorcycle.   200 horsepower.   Probably cost a dollar or two to go 200 kilometers.

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Jotegir
+6 Cam McRae Deniz Merdano Morgan Heater Pete Roggeman Konrad cxfahrer Sethimus 4Runner1

I can't belive someone would spend $9000 on a moto with only 125mm of travel and SRAM SX.

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mikeferrentino
+1 Deniz Merdano

Yeah, but a 150XC would be much better for tech singletrack...

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XXX_er
+1 4Runner1 Sandy James Oates Joseph Crabtree

I bought an SC Bullit 2 seasons ago cuz of injury/ old age, its a lot of fun, but it was 11.5 K for the "entry" level package, so I can not  really see how Canyon can justify the 16K ( the flight attendant ?) while these things are expensive, i didnt really notice a worthy spec  on the tested bike to warrant 16K? , you can get into a mtn bike with real parts for 9 K  but SC or Yeti or Norco start at 12 ish and  with all the good stuff could be closer to 20K .

I did check around the local area to see whom an E-bike was going to piss off but outside of old hikers who are pissed off at acoustic bikers anyway it was not an issue So cha-ching, IME what happens is i just ride E-bike more and actulay riding an E-bike at 80 rpm will put me in zone 2 so I just ride further/longer and I actualy lose weight.

Speaking to the buying on-line thing, I have bought bikes not at the LBS and i can work on an acoustic bike no problem but add in the motor and its a whole nuther level of FUBAR. I know a local guy buys an unnamed popular brand of bike with the EP8 from a distributor and it dies in 6 rides, the motor does get replaced on warranty but that was 2 months later, also local buddy gets a 400 labor bill for replacing the motor becuz the dealer who fixed but did not sell the bike, there was no way to charge back the labor to Shimano or to the bike mfger, if the dealer had sold the bike it would just be after sales service, the dealer did feel bad but not bad enough to eat the 400$ labour charge

I wanked about with the dreaded E010 error code intermittently for almost a season, I finaly figured out on my own that I needed a firmware update ( the second firmware update )which is easy to do with E-tube using my phone, but there were no bulletins from Shimano to the dealer or to users so they never said a word anywhere that i could see on the internet.

There are 5 piece of firmware in an EP8 so make no mistake it is a computer with 2 wheels, Shimano sold me a computer with wheels and they suck at the support aspect of being a computer company, I don't think Shimano have a handle on it

SO becuz of the motor imo people looking to buy an E-bike might want to think about buying it from the LBS with whom they have a relationship ??? Who will probably have SFA of an idea how to fix your computer but maybe it will end up costing you less

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LoamtoHome
+1 Velocipedestrian cxfahrer XXX_er

resale value of a used bike is pretty bad right now, ebikes will be horrendous and ebikes from Online only are going to 20 cents on the dollar.  With all the warranty waiting, you'll need another bike as well.  It's a rich man sport.

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XXX_er
-2 Sethimus Joseph Crabtree Jotegir utopic

Obviously I am  richer than you, go eat some dog food

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trumpstinyhands
+1 utopic

$400 to replace a Shimano motor? Blimey. Please tell me there was $250 of diagnosing time including swapping out all the wiring, charging port etc etc before they figured out what was wrong? It doesn't take 4+ hours to swap one of those out. It's been a while, but IIRC it's six bolts, three electrical connectors that just push on, chainring, cranks and x amount of plastic shit designed to make the assembly look nice.

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XXX_er
-1 utopic

i wasnt there but i think there was more to it than that, apparently there is a whole bunch of wanking about with  Shimano  on the phone before they are is gona send you a new motor,  but your takaway was suposed to be what can happen with a bike you buy on-line that you can no longer work on, that has shitty support.

So blimey, another british euphenism, when are you gona tell the rest of the class  how old you are or that you used to race  or some other useless fucking thing ?

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trumpstinyhands
+1 utopic

Greetings old chap. Not sure about that last sentence, but with regards to phone calls, yes you have to call Shimano to explain the situation and then they give you are Return Authorization number. IME this takes about 5 minutes as Shimano erred on the side of just sending a new motor rather than fannying about trying to work out the exact motor issue. The pain in the ass is having to call them back to calibrate the new motor to the bike once installed which take a bit more time.

But yes I agree with the take home about being aware of the potential expense with buying these bikes. I wish the industry was more transparent about all these issues.

Anyway, I'm off to walk the lurcher and shoot some peasants / pheasants. Tally ho!

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bondachoff
0

Just to let you know if you were not aware, if you need to raise the limit on the bike, the region and therefore speed limit can be changed by a dealer with access to E-Tube. It may need Shimano in your region to remote access it to get this done for you.

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denomerdano
0

I tried. 2 different service managers could not help me with the issue, or maybe didn't want to.

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bondachoff
+1 Pete Roggeman

Thats very unfortunate, would love to help but think I am on the wrong continent in this case, hopefully someone can though, Really excellent article btw, always good work on NSMB, recently got myself an ebike so really should go give it a go now.

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XXX_er
-1 Joseph Crabtree

I would bet you the service managers ^^ didnt know how to help you ? I believe there are products out there that will let you hack for more speed like " Stunlocker " but I don't know what that would do for your warranty ?

So that magnet under 2 screws on the rear brake rotor tells the motor how fast I am going, hacking it wouldn't make the EP8 produce more power, it would just allow the bike to go faster. I'm getting just under 32kph on a canadian spec Bullit , mo power would be cool but really I don't need to go any faster on the local trails built to the whistler bike park spec, you might want more speed ( as oposed to power) on the road to keep up with those other guys .

I suggest you check out & become a member of the " Shimano EP8 owners group" on FB, they still have wankers of course but they are different than the wankers here, so you can brag about how old you are, also a  good chance to learn the the new terminology like "sod it" " brick it " " cheers mate " any other british euphenisms you might know will be handy mate

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denomerdano
0

I like learning, especially new British terminology. But I also am not hacking the software of a bike I am returning to the company I borrowed it from soon.

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joseph-crabtree
0 william bailey Kristian Øvrum Peter Leeds BarryW utopic Sandy James Oates Jotegir 4Runner1 XXX_er Rick C

The carbon footprint of this thing makes it an ecological disaster IMHO. I really don't understand why anyone needs something like this to enjoy riding in the woods. I've heard all of the justification people have for bropeds but they are just excuses for laziness.

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denomerdano
+3 4Runner1 Merwinn Cam McRae Sandy James Oates Pete Roggeman ElBrendo william bailey Kristian Øvrum utopic

Great question. 

Some need it because they have debilitating issues with their bodies,

Some need it to carry heavy tools and gear into the woods.

Some just want to try different challenges as they have been mountain biking on the same hill for over 30 years and some as you said, are just lazy.

I myself am just bike-curious and would like to look at the options available to the public with fair eyes. 

I can not deny the resources it takes to produce ANY mountain bike these days is disastrous...

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BarryW
+1 Kristian Øvrum Joseph Crabtree chris2 ZigaK utopic 4Runner1 Jotegir XXX_er Rick C

"Some need it because they have debilitating issues with their bodies"

So if I take a paralyzed friend down a mtb trail in a side by side that would be okay? 

Obviously not. 

So let's stop pretending that this is an excuse. Sorry but all people cannot do all things. We don't allow disabled skiers to ride around on snowmobiles right? You just maybe can't ski. And I say this as someone that has spent 3 months of the last year recovering from a total colon removal, a year of wearing an ostomy bag and just after last Christmas a reconnection. Sure it sucks to be laid up, but it isn't okay to borrow a Jeep and drive down mtb trails. 

Remember folks, if you take any idea to its logical conclusion and it becomes insane... It wasn't logical to begin with.

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denomerdano
+1 4Runner1 Jotegir Rick C Kristian Øvrum utopic

You can definitely take a paralyzed friend down a trail on an adaptive bike( usually e assisted) 

More and more trails are designed to accept those abling contraptions and everyone is happier for it. 

I am sorry to hear about your health issues. It does not sound fun at all but you came out on the other side. 

Yet you are completely wrong about eMTBs . On every sense of the word...

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BarryW
-3 utopic 4Runner1 Jotegir XXX_er Rick C

You seem to have sidestepped the questions. 

How am I wrong about putting motors on bikes? 

And see how you put in a limit to what can/should be used on a trail? You easily say nope, that thing isn't obviously not allowed. But somehow you assume that ebikes should be? Why?

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pete@nsmb.com
+1 4Runner1 Jotegir Rick C Joseph Crabtree Peter Leeds

Barry, we've beaten this fucker to death and frankly I'm not getting into it with you. I'm not sidestepping questions. You haven't established why e-bikes should NOT be allowed on trails. Onus is on you, because right now they are allowed and - as we've already discussed - the world hasn't ended.

If you can't distinguish between a side by side or a motorbike with ICEs and all that horsepower and a bike with an 85Nm electric motor that - combined with its power source - adds a mere 10-12 lbs to a bike, then I can't help you. If you think that your snowmobile argument similarly holds water, you need to re-roll. Yell at clouds all you want, I'm not listening anymore.

pete@nsmb.com
0 4Runner1 Jotegir Rick C Joseph Crabtree Peter Leeds utopic

But Barry, you're not making logical comparisons, so your conclusions aren't logical.

I'm sorry, but e-bikes and motorbikes are entirely different. The amount of power and torque, the weight, the size of the tires and suspension, the list goes on - motorbikes are different animals. Calling an e-bike a motorbike 'because it has a motor' is lazy logic. Your argument collapses because e-bikes and regular bikes use the same componentry, but you can't put a Moto wheel on your mtn bike.

I'm going to guess you haven't tried an e-bike, and you should. I'm not saying you have to like it, but you're not equipped to make comparisons if you don't have that experience.

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BarryW
-2 Peter Leeds Joseph Crabtree utopic 4Runner1 Jotegir XXX_er Rick C Ray Freeman

No, it's the obvious logic.

It isn't even a stretch. There are a ton of different types of motorcycles, with vastly different use cases, componentry and the like. Yet all have motors. Therefore all are motorized cycles, aka... Motorcycle. 

Why is this even hard? 

I'll admit they are not same, same. But neither is any ebike the same as a regular old human powered bicycle. In what way are these not mopeds? Because they easily and obviously fit that definition. In what way are these not motorcycles? Because they easily and obviously fit that definition as well. You're playing a different sport, and I'm not saying you're a bad person for it, and I know it is super fun.  But it isn't the same sport, it's very, very different and should be considered as such. 

And to take the analogy to another sport, let's try this:

I paddle sea kayaks a lot, and as noted I've spent a lot of time recovering from some serious medical issues, and therefore couldn't kayak for some time.

What if I didn't accept that and insisted on taking my canoe, mounting my little 5hp outboard on it and coming along on a sea kayak paddle? Obviously no one in that human powered sport would accept that, and if it was an overnight trip I could not stay at any human powered only campsites. 

And why not? Because it isn't kayaking. It isn't human powered, therefore it's different. Explain I'm illogical, ins of just saying it and trying to dismiss offhand.

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pete@nsmb.com
+1 4Runner1 Jotegir Rick C Joseph Crabtree utopic

Your kayaking friends are assholes, then. Because I happily ride bikes with friends who need the assistance, including one good friend who uses a Bowhead adaptive bike, which was designed to work on trails that have a 24" minimum width, and I don't treat their situation as a 'too bad for you, sucker' scenario. We all go have fun in the forest, and no one spends a minute worrying about whether it's a different sport or not.

4Runner1
+1 Rick C

But you could use an electric motor and have a great time with your friends. Minn Kota FTW.

davetolnai
+1 4Runner1

Speaking of taking things to their logical conclusion...I don't think you'd get very far with a 5HP motor mounted to a sea kayak.  Capsized, I think.

But now I'm pretty excited about the prospect of a little electric trolling motor on a sea kayak!

Jotegir
+2 Sethimus 4Runner1 Rick C ElBrendo ZigaK utopic
4Runner1
0

Unbelievable

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BarryW
0 chris2 Peter Leeds utopic 4Runner1 XXX_er Rick C

I'm actually trying to have a decent discussion here guys. 

And I'm frankly blown away that several of you seem to have no issue with bringing a motor along on a kayaking day. Quite literally no one else has ever taken it that way. So let me clear it up, there are campsites all over that are human powered or 'beachable sail craft' only. You cannot use them with ANY powered vessel. And no one is harmed by that, no one really has any issues with that. Mostly because it's clear these are not for motorized use. 

On our mountain bike trails the ebike crowd seems to have little trouble making rules about who and what gets to use them, but they always assume that their ebikes are within that circle of approval. I'm asking why that is. 

Why do you see the 'obvious' difference between motorcycles (high powered) and powered bicycles (low powered)? Both are powered, the components do not define that. 

My kayaking friends are in no way assholes, instead they are fairly defending what their sport is. They go out for kayaking. And if you can keep up, handle the conditions we paddle in, and not use a motor pretty much anyone can come. Row boat, peddle kayak, whatever. But you can't come along with us using a motor because that's a different sport. 

Why is that bad to you? Why are your limits (of no ice motorcycles, no electric motorcycles, no side by sides, etc) okay and the idea that a bicycle is not powered problematic to you?

As to why it's problematic to me, here goes. 

As a proponent of human powered sport I go I to the woods knowing that the harder I work, the more remote I go the fewer and fewer people I will run into. Not because I hate people, but because I want that true wild place that few people get to. And when someone comes along that has not put in the work it diminishes the value of the work. 

Put another way, why does no one here worry about disabled backcountry skiers? Why don't we accept snowmobiles for them in human powered only backcountry areas? Do we cry 'discrimination' and allow powered skis? Of course not, because that would be preposterous. 

I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm trying to have a civil and reasoned discussion. Please engage on these points.

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Sethimus
-1 Rick C 4Runner1 Joseph Crabtree ZigaK utopic

you know who doesn’t have this type of discussions? yes, europeans, despite the fact that there are A LOT more bike restricted areas there and it’s way more overcrowded than your neck of the woods will ever be. and that’s the reason why we sell 70% ebikes to non motorized bikes these days. get with the times, luddite!

pete@nsmb.com
+1 Jotegir Rick C Ray Freeman Peter Leeds Joseph Crabtree

OK, Barry, I wasn't going to, but I'll bite. The biggest issue here is that you are not making apples to apples comparisons. You even admitted as much in a prior comment. That makes the rest of your arguments hard to consider, because you're not bothering to start from level ground. If you want to have a decent discussion, you have to stay within the lines, and these arguments have not been subject to enough scrutiny.

I appreciate you clearing up the kayaking issue, but it also illustrates a problematic approach. So there are clearly defined rules surrounding who can use certain campsites. Fine. Great, even. I've done some paddling, and several weeklong kayak camping trips. I totally get why there are campsites closed to motorized access, and I approve.

But: 1) we weren't talking about overnights, or access-restricted to human-powered areas. That is simply one way kayaks can be used. You just said you'd never go paddling with a motor; and, 2) you continue on to say that: "On our mountain bike trails the e-bike crowd seems to have little trouble making rules about who and what gets to use them, but they always assume that their e-bikes are within that circle of approval."

Barry, e-bikers aren't 'making the rules about who and what gets to use [trails]'. They're simply riding their bikes in the forest, which is permissible by law here in BC and, frankly, almost everywhere else. That may change one day, but the 'sky is falling' crowd have so far, fortunately, been proven wrong about e-bikes impacting land access. So for now, you're going to have to accept that you just don't like e-bikes or at least the fact that they're allowed on the trails, but that isn't their fault; for now the regulators are ok with their presence, e-bikers are exercising their right to use those same trails, which they have the same rights to use as you do, since we're talking about public trails.

Let's move on.

You continue with the 'ebikes are motorbikes' argument, which has long been the calling card of knee-jerk anti e-bikers. I'm not explaining again why this is a lazy and  flawed argument. If you don't get it, I'm not gonna waste my time. But it's clear you've never ridden an e-bike, probably not a motorbike, either. The difference between those two things IS the night and day difference you're trying to claim exists between mtn bikes and e-bikes. 

Riding an e-bike requires the same level and type of skills requires by mountain biking, with more strength needed to control the added weight of the bike, and less aerobic capacity. But - and this is another point lost on people who haven't bothered to try one before forming an argument - you still pedal. You still do 'some' work and there are lots of instances where you can get anaerobic on a hard climb. You can also lazily pedal to the top and I'll be first to say that of course a regular bike is a better workout. Of course there's a difference. But calling them motorbikes sends your argument to the round file because it shows willful ignorance about the differences between the amount of power a motorbike of any size can generate vs an e-bike. It's orders of magnitude, by the way. HUGE difference and that impacts everything about how the two are ridden and experienced as well as trail design and impact on other trail users. 

I fully understand your point about using human-powered means of accessing remote areas, and we enjoy common ground here. The b/c ski argument isn't the same, though. This still isn't about e-bikers accessing areas they're not allowed to. It's just your prejudice against their use. And that's fine! I'm not telling you not to hate them, but you have no choice but to accept them, because for now, they're permitted.

Sethimus
-2 Rick C 4Runner1 Peter Leeds Joseph Crabtree ZigaK utopic

oh and barry, do tell: how often do you use your truck to carry your bike to the parking spot of your „local“ hill and how often do you pedal your bike directly to the trail head from your home? exactly, case closed.

Jotegir
-1 Deniz Merdano 4Runner1 XXX_er Joseph Crabtree ZigaK

I was honestly going to type something out about how your abelism is 1. astounding and 2. intentionally and maliciously obfusacting the narrative by choosing only absurd examples in unlikely situations*, but instead I made a judgment call that we would be unable to have a productive discussion (based on said intentional and malicious obfuscation) and instead posted a video with a joke title. Apparently I was correct as I got a shot-gun blast of a response not aimed in any particular direction.

___________________

*taking a paralyzed friend down a MTB trail in a 4x4 vehicle is an aburd example when appropriate adaptive options work for many riders. Likewise sit skiing is an option. And hey, if someone with a disability wants to drive a side by side or snow machine, that's great - there's room enough for all of that in our beautiful province. But I'm sure you're aware of these options, but their acknowledgment isn't convenient for whatever weird (and frankly, a little disturbing?) ableist point you're trying to make. You accuse Deniz of making illogical arguments but your intentional leaps over well known realities in favour of absurd examples seems... well, illogical.

___________________

"Dear Mr. President, there are too many states nowawdays. Please eleminate three. P.S. I am not a crackpot"

BarryW
-1 Peter Leeds Joseph Crabtree utopic XXX_er Rick C Sethimus 4Runner1

Thank you. 

However, I have riden motorcycles on the road at about 100,000 miles worth. I've riden off road motorcycles, and I've riden ebikes. 

Making the assumption that the problem is about ignorance of the object is not constructive, and deeply flawed. I don't argue they are illegal, but I argue they are not good for the sport and we the bicycle riding folk of the world need to push back on the profit motive driven companies that keep pushing them. 

You keep saying they use bike parts, they are similar ride experience to a bike and therefore are NOT a motorcycle but therefore a bike. Well along those lines early motorcycles were... Bicycle. Except they weren't. Just because a car is barely running and only making enough power to barely move on flat ground it is always a car. Why this is not the same logical path on ebikes astounds me. 

And you made a good observation that I mentioned campgrounds for watercraft. That is true, but it doesn't negate that sea kayaking is a human powered sport. And if you cannot do it I am very sorry but you can't bring along your Zodiac with an outboard on our trip (electric or gasoline). Why? Because we are sea kayaking, NOT power boating. If you need to use a power boat go right ahead, just don't think you are sea kayaking. 

Okay, on the backcountry skiing, it is the same in areas that allow both. Because these areas exist. In that scenario I am certain you nor anyone else want someone that cannot ski, but can ride a snowmobile along for the day. Even if it is allowed legally. 

And Sethimus, this isn't about energy use, or about carbon emissions, never has been, never will. 

Lu Kz, I answered the questions honestly and decently. Not sure what you are claiming is malicious?

I can guarantee you and anyone else claiming that the reason we all need to happily accept ebikes is for disabled people to mtb all put limits on that. See the o'e about riding a snowmobile on a ski hill, or a kayak with a motor. Abelism is discrimination based on physical ability and judging that person by it. Because no one has a problem with the fire department saying that some people can't pass the physical testing. Some people can't do all kinds of things and I'm one of those people. I was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes as a small child and it meant I really couldn't purse my dream of being a pilot. Sure, the world has turned and now I could, but I wasn't harmed by that. I also couldn't become a firefighter, enter the military or many other things. In fact it meant my folks wouldn't let me race bicycles as a teenager because they worried about my diabetes. I didn't like that but it was a reality I had to  deal with. So don't cast shade on me as someone that doesn't understand disabilit. And see my comments in this thread about getting massive surgery a year ago, then another one two months ago. All to remove a significant part of me. 

Everyone sets limits to their sport. Everyone of you claiming I am a jerk for doing it also do it. You just choose different lines of distinction. So enough with the moralistic arguments about how anyone that says certain modes are not mountain biking. We all do it, even you.

RickC
-1 BarryW 4Runner1 Joseph Crabtree ZigaK utopic

this is pure gatekeeping. yes its being a dick.

BarryW
0 Joseph Crabtree utopic Rick C 4Runner1

"this is pure gatekeeping. yes its being a dick."

In what way? Do you disagree with the ideas that we should screen applicants for certain professions based on physical ability or skill? Are you having a problem with ANY form of gatekeeping? My point is that in a discussion when one person complains about another 'gatekeeping' it is usually easy enough to demonstrate several levels of gatekeeping that is partaking in. And honestly it's a silly term to describe unfair, unreasonable discrimination, NOT reasonable, necessary limits. As an example, you don't want children having access to hard narcotics, ergo gatekeeping. Sure it's a ridiculous example but it serves to prove a point about the blanket use of 'gatekeeper!!' as a negative. 

I'm curious, did you read what I wrote as a person with physical disability and how it has impacted my life? I say these things out of empathy, not just sympathy.

Jotegir
+2 4Runner1 Cooper Quinn Pete Roggeman JakeRedrum Kristian Øvrum Joseph Crabtree XXX_er utopic

The carbon footprint idea is a flawed narrative created with the goal of making individuals who have near zero net impact on the environment internalize the actions of corporations and governments that those individuals have near net zero control over.  Hobby mountain biking in general is an ecological disaster if we really want to go down that rabbit hole. Oh, and if we do - how's your carbon footprint? Are you under the "if everyone lived like you, we'd need <1 earths" measurement? Be honest.

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joseph-crabtree
0 william bailey chris2 utopic Jotegir XXX_er Rick C

Mainly talking about the batteries, this thing has 5 or 6. I'm not going to get on a high horse but my carbon footprint is well below average for a first world country, rarely drive and ride from my door 90% of the time, metal bikes (2, a steel HT and a alum FS) with recycled parts mostly. 

Deniz > The old/invalid use for e-peds is BS as I'm pushing 70 and still manage to get in a lap or 2 despite numerus old injury issues. 

You can come up with any excuse/reasoning but you'll never convince me that e-bikes are anything more than a shiny new toy that will be dated in a few years and need replacing with the latest one.

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Jotegir
-1 4Runner1 Rick C Joseph Crabtree XXX_er utopic

". I'm not going to get on a high horse but my carbon footprint is well below average for a first world country,"

What's the number? Are you less than 1 earths or not?

"And the old/invalid use for e-peds is BS as I'm pushing 70 and still manage to get in a lap or 2 despite numerus old injury issues."

You must be replying to someone else by mistake.

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joseph-crabtree
-3 chris2 Kristian Øvrum Jotegir 4Runner1 Cooper Quinn XXX_er Rick C

I don't have a number but will say I care enough to attempt to mitigate what effects I do  create unlike you obviously. Maybe if you just enjoy what you have instead of your FearOfMissingOut that is so prevalent in our society we wouldn't be having this conversation.

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Jotegir
+1 4Runner1 Cooper Quinn Rick C Joseph Crabtree XXX_er

"Maybe if you just enjoy what you have instead of your FearOfMissingOut that is so prevalent in our society we wouldn't be having this conversation"

This is a false equivalency and it's also based on an incorrect assumption -  my several years old bikes, the 100+ year old place I live, the 20 year old vehicle I drive, limited social media use, and general spending habits suggest I don't sccumb to the consumeristic FOMO you've wrongly assumed I do. 

More on point, I fail to see the connection between alleged FOMO and my initial preposition that using carbon footprint narrative to shift resposibility away from large actors is a flawed way of making meaningful environmental impacts.  Are you supplanting my criticism of this 'unit of measure' with the actions of ebike brand marketing departments, ebike product development, and e-bike buyers as a whole?

pete@nsmb.com
+1 Konrad 4Runner1 Cooper Quinn skinnyboy Kristian Øvrum Joseph Crabtree utopic

Joseph, it's great that you're ~70 and riding mtn bikes. I hope to still be riding later on in life. And I'm sure you consider yourself fortunate to be healthy and fit, no matter what age you may be.

But c'mon man, just because you don't need an e-bike to ride at your age doesn't make it true for everyone. This conversation is greater than what concerns me, myself, and I. We're all paddling different canoes down the river, but if my canoe starts to take on water, I hope you're not suggesting I just let it sink to the bottom.

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cooperquinn
+1 Pete Roggeman Jotegir 4Runner1 Konrad Kristian Øvrum Joseph Crabtree utopic

As someone who distinctly *isn't* an e-bike fan (at least from a trails perspective, I love my e-cargo bike) the "carbon footprint" argument against e-bikes isn't a very good one, TBH.

The average Canadian emits ~15T CO2/annum (~14T for USA). 

The difference between a Trek Fuel, and a Trek Rail (electric) is ~70kg of CO2. Which sure, isn't nothing, but its also about the same as driving 135km in your Tacoma, which is conveniently one trip to Squamish from North Van. 

Now, no one is pedaling their Trek Rail to Squamish instead of driving there, but my point is that in the grand scheme of mountain biking, the CO2 footprint difference between an e-bike and a mountain bike is pretty much completely negligible. 

Sure, you can point to recycling challenges, etc, but again, the volumes and quantities we're talking about here... kiiiiinda don't matter. Change your house to a heatpump. Move into a multi-family building. Commute on a bike or a bus. These all have many, many, many orders of magnitude more impact.

EDIT: math'd slightly wrong. Its about three trips to Squamish, but my point remains. There's way more impactful places to look in your life before you need to start worrying - or throwing stones - about this.

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LoamtoHome
+1 Deniz Merdano

What about a gravel ebike?

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davetolnai
+3 Cooper Quinn Deniz Merdano Jerry Willows

Cooper has a first look on one next week!

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cooperquinn
+2 Deniz Merdano Jerry Willows

Photos will be taken on one of Jerry's trails.

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LoamtoHome
+3 Ryan Walters Joseph Crabtree Cooper Quinn

See if you get more than 8 batteries on it.

UMichael
0

I have only seen one review for this bike previously, and in that review it was mentioned that in hardest gear the chain would rub on the provided chainstay protection.

Did you find that to be the case on your bike?  Might be they adjusted that height.

I do not feel like this bike was well thought out enough for the price, but I'm also riding a 2017 Aluminium 27.5-inch bike so maybe that's how I feel about most bikes these days

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denomerdano
0

The chain rubs on the stays on the rubber protectors on 3 bikes that are in my posession right now. It is not an issue on any of them. The Canyon, has the best rubber protection out of all 3 and still looks brand new!

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cerealkilla_
0

Curious about the charging port protection. Is there anything specific that could be done to better protect this area, in terms of waterproofing, simple shielding or packing, or tieback of cable routing?

I had a similar bash guard vulnerability on a bike of mine. I added some thick carbon-looking armor tape (probably no real carbon). It provided a second layer that I figured protected the bash guard .

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4Runner1
-1 Jotegir Joseph Crabtree utopic

I’ll soon be riding an emtb, along with my meat powered HT. It certainly took me a few years to get my head around them. 

Thanks for the review. Every time I read an emtb review, I learn a little more.

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denomerdano
0

Which eMTB did you go for?

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4Runner1
0

I have a ‘23 Orbea Wild on order. Hopefully it’s here by April. I went a little crazy and went full MyO on an M10.

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denomerdano
0

By far my favorite eMTB platforms out there. Fast, nimble, great looking. You are going to love it..

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4Runner1
0

Cheers!

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XXX_er
-1 4Runner1 Joseph Crabtree utopic

I thot this was thread about the tech of a Canyon E-bike, if i hada known this thread would just be a bunch of wanking on about wether we should be riding E-bikes i wouldn't have spent time writing an opinion

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