Product Intro
Bosch unlocks 750watts/100nm for gen 5 CX Motor
Surprise!
When I wrote about Bosch's new motor, which I first rode on the Santa Cruz Vala, there wasn't too much to say. The biggest news was that the rattle that some riders experienced while descending in rough terrain, had been eliminated. I had ridden a few bikes where this was an issue but probably more that didn't seem to have the problem so this wasn't high on my list. Apparently it was also quieter under power but if it is, I may be a little deaf because I can't tell. It is 100g lighter and includes a hill start mode (which I haven't yet explored) but all in all it seemed a bit little like new motor was trumpeting "Bold New Graphics," considering how little had changed.
But then I heard some rumbling. The new motor's capabilities would apparently be unleashed with a software update. I also noticed a new plate installed in addition to the top tube-mounted display on the Vala and other bikes with the new motor. Apparently this was for a new digital display with actual letters, numbers and graphics, that was on the way. This was more exciting news. Another rumble I heard was that Pivot had released a Shuttle LT with the existing Performance CX-R motor because that too was being replaced. The rumour mill was churning out a lot of information about Bosch actvities and I was very curious about which ones would hold up.
There's a fair bit going on in there. Photo - Deniz Merdano
Main Points
- June Software update will allow owners of gen. 5 Bosch Performance Line CX motors to access 400% assistance, 100nm of torque and 750w of power
- New Kiox 400c digital display will give riders detailed information about speed, navigation and elevation as well as battery and assist level and range and the information displayed will change based on whether your bike is climbing or descending
- New CX-R (Race) motor is 100g lighter, has Race mode which allows aggressive "extended boost", more sophisticated sensors, ceramic bearings and a Ti crankshaft
- New eMTB+ mode which is optimized for "performance and Trail Fun"
- Updated Bosch ABS and ABS Pro braking systems
The CX-R motor (formerly the CX-Race) doesn't exert more power, assistance or torque than the current gen. 5 CX, but it is 200g lighter, has more sophisticated sensors, a titanium crankshaft and ceramic bearings. It also gives you access to Race mode which has an aggressive "extended boost" mode that keeps the power on after you stop pedalling.
Performance Line CX-R (race!) Motor
The previous CX-R motor had the same torque and power as the regular CX motor, but its boost would increase the power the rider put in by 400% vs 350% for the standard version. The other big difference was Extended Boost. This feature is noticeable in eMTB mode on the CX but for the R it is further... extended. When you stop pedalling the bike keeps the same speed going for two metres. This was also the most noticeable feature of the new CX-R. It actually felt like the bike accelerated when you stopped pedalling, but this was likely an illusion. At first this is disconcerting because you generally stop pedalling when you need to slow down. Once I got used to this feature I'm sure I would figure out situations where level pedals would make clearing a technical climb section easier, but until that is internalized, you should expect some surprises.
In terms of rider experience, Kurt Hoy from Bosch gave me this description of the difference between the CX and the CX-R; "The CX-R is the unrestricted, instant, full-power mode for aggressive riding and racing."
Inside the CX-R you'll find a titanium crankshaft and ceramic bearings and the software delivers more sophisticated data about speed and torque. Overall, it doesn't seem like a dramatic upgrade compared to the now-unlocked gen. 5 CX.
Now that the motor has been released to the public, we may begin to see eMTBs spec'ed with the CX-R but I haven't heard any rumours about that.
This Kiox 400c is attached to the CX-R motor which explains the top mode being RACE rather than BOOST. Photo - Deniz Merdano
Kiox 400c Display
I have never been happy with Bosch's colour-coded System Controller. It has five bars to display battery level and each bar has two colours: blue (sort of turquoise actually) and white (a little bit orange?). When you have 100%, the display shows five blue. When you hit 90 the top bar goes white and then it turns off when you hit 80. This keeps going until you get to 30% when the bottom two bars go white to give you extra range anxiety. Once you get used to it, the System Controller works fine but I'd much rather see "29% battery remaining" than a couple of bars that could mean anything between 20% and 30%. While I don't use a computer on pedal bikes (or use Strava), I like seeing data like speed, distance and elevation when I'm on an eMTB so this is a welcome change for me. Information like heart rate and cadence are a bonus.
The display changes the data you see depending on how the sensors decipher what you are doing. An example is that if you are climbing, elevation will be displayed but when you are descending speed will pop up. The USB C outlet to charge your devices is a bonus that may come in handy for some people and in a pinch you could charge an AXS battery, assuming you have the charger and a USB-C to micro USB cable.
It's not entirely clear how owners of a bikes with the gen. 5 Performance Line CX, but with the previous display, would purchase the Kiox 400c but they should be available at your LBS or online dealer. I've also heard there may be preferential pricing from the brand you purchased your bike from but that has not been confirmed. I haven't heard what the MSRP will be at this point.
The Kiox 400c display features a USB outlet so you can charge your devices. Photo - Bosch
Bosch Philosophy
Bosch believes that most riders are best served by the current Performance Line CX maximum power output of 85nm/600w, which is why bikes with that motor will continue to ship with those settings. But they also say that going up to the new limit of 100nm/750w gets into the "fun range." Based on their testing, Bosch thinks that going over these new numbers could decrease the life of your drivetrain. In North America, power output is limited to 750w in the US and (apparently?) 500w in Canada but in Europe that limit is 1000w which Bosch thinks is too high and they are apparently lobbying for 750 to be the limit there. Hopefully they are also lobbying for a top speed of 32kmh/20mph for our Euro friends because the current 25kmh/15.5mph is a little silly.
We pedalled up from near the Santa Cruz Bikes facility and then rode three quick laps of some fun trails using the new software and (in my case) the new CX-R motor. Photo - Cam McRae
Riding New Software (and hardware)
Bosch invited a few of us to spend a few hours with the new software in Santa Cruz before Sea Otter. I got a bike that doesn't exist apparently; a Transition Regulator with a Bosch Performance CX-R motor and a Bosch co-developed integrated TRP electronic drivetrain. The bike also had the new Kiox 400c display. Unfortunately there was either a set up problem with the drivetrain or the derailleur got bumped in transit because it was malfunctioning as soon as we got on the trail. The derailleur would shift at the worst possible times or drop five cogs down the cassette spontaneously on a climb. At times it seemed like it was in auto-shift mode and at others it simply wouldn't hold the cog it was in. I'm sure there was some sort of micro adjust system but it wasn't clear how it worked just by looking at. Changing the shifting modes was similarly mysterious. One of the Bosch guys tried to help but he confessed later that he probably adjusted it the wrong way. So while this wasn't ideal, there were enough situations where things worked properly for me to get a sense of the Race Motor.
The TRP system on the bike I was riding had some set up issues or perhaps it was damaged in transport and wasn't functioning properly. This sort of thing happens and there is no point in making a judgement about the product because of this issue but obviously I had to mention it. I expect we'll see integration with future Shimano systems as well since Bosch already works with Shimano on urban and commuter bikes.
The first thing I noticed, once I put the bike in Race mode, was (surprise) lots of power. For the most part it was fairly well controlled but it was also clear that it would take some getting used to. Anyone who was recently purchased an eMTB and tries to climb some steep, tight switchbacks will tell you that it's very challenging at first to harness that power and you're better off starting in a lower mode. Eventually you'll get the hang of it (if that's your goal) but at first you'll find yourself overshooting and pushing your front tire sideways. The climb we were doing had some tricky bits like that and all those Newton metres were indeed a lot to handle. Overall though the was power delivered in smooth Bosch fashion and the performance was impressive. At this point it seems that Race mode would be used sparingly, perhaps to climb sections that are too challenging for even 85nm but that is just speculation and only more time on the bike will tell where and when that would be useful or just plain fun.
The TRP system on the bike I was riding had some set up issues or perhaps it was damaged in transport and wasn't functioning properly. This sort of thing happens and there is no point in making a judgement about the product because of this issue. I expect we'll see integration with Shimano systems in the future as well since Bosch already works with Shimano
Other Updates
Bosch is continuing to move forward with their ABS and ABS pro braking systems to prevent your front wheel from skidding. These new systems are apparently less obtrusive than previous versions and more sensitive. I have yet to see them or use them so I can't say much but at this point I am not interested at all in this system.
Bosch was also pushing a new mode called eMTB+ for both the CX and CX-R motors. Bosch says that eMTB is optimized for "touring and longer range" and that eMTB+ is aimed at "performance and trail fun." These and all the other modes can be customized in the Bosch Flow app.
While we'll have to wait for June for the software updates, I haven't heard when we'll see CX-R motors on eMTBs or when the new ABS systems will be available. Something that is available now is the 'bike garage' feature in the Flow app, which allows you to connect multiple bikes to your app. Previously you had to delete your current bike to connect another. This is great news for bike testers or for those who have multiple Bosch-equipped bikes in the family.
It seems unlikely we'll get more access to these features before July, because Bosch runs a very tight ship, but once we do we'll be able to give you some more detailed information about living with significantly more power, torque and assistance.
Comments
Kos
1 month, 1 week ago
I (generally) support responsible e-bike use.
But 85 Nm is enough, for gawd’s sake!
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Trogdor
1 month, 1 week ago
Agreed. Why don't they just put pegs on it and get it overwith. Bike industry has no shame.
Just for reference:
A 250cc dirt bike typically produces a maximum torque between 17 to 21 Nm. This value can vary slightly depending on the specific model and engine configuration, but this range is a general guideline. For example, the Honda CRF250RX is reported to have 17.8 lb-ft of torque, which is equivalent to about 24 Nm. Similarly, the Kawasaki KX250 has a maximum torque of 18.4 lb-ft, which translates to roughly 25 Nm.
Have friends with the low powered ebikes. No problem with them. Not fast enough with zero effort I guess.
Controversy creates clicks.
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ultimatist
1 month, 1 week ago
Torque is irrelevant here. The dirt bike can spin at 100x your cadence, and 50x your wattage.
I live between hills with 30-40% climbing grades, the kind where you need real power and real balance to climb. I like the power, but I have to contend that some muppets will do 28mph around the bend of a busy walking path.
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Bikes
1 month, 1 week ago
Torque is kind of defacto power given the limited cadence range of a human.
This should give all 750watts at 72rpm
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Pete Roggeman
1 month, 1 week ago
Torque as a comparison between an electric motor and an ICE motor is a straw man. Sure, the ebike has more torque. But if you say a 250cc motorbike spits out 40HP and convert that to watts, you get 29 THOUSAND...just slightly more than the 750 or so watts we're talking about here.
Make good arguments, it'll make for good conversations.
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Trogdor
1 month, 1 week ago
How about this? Ride a low powered emtb 50(NM). Then jump on this set up (100nm) and tell me its not a motorbike with a shitload of torque. I have rode both versions and will never ride another high torque emtb again. It's too much like riding a motorbike, I want to actually cycle.
BTW I have no problem with emtb but the argument it gets people out there is BS. It's really that people wanna ride motorbikes instead and this motor is exactly what the people want.
Whatever gets you up the hill with the least amount of discomfort I guess.
Have fun out there
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Pete Roggeman
1 month, 1 week ago
I spend most of my ebike time on a 50Nm bike, so we're in agreement there. I think 85Nm on max is 'too much' and you feel like you're being carried uphill - not what I'm after. And I agree 100 is too much.
But conflating torque and power output is not the right way to make the argument. I've owned electric cars for six or seven years. Tons of torque, very little power.
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Cam McRae
1 month, 1 week ago
Bosch would agree.
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bikinbikinbikin
1 month, 1 week ago
Extended Boost = throttle for bikes that aren’t allowed to have a throttle?
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GrundleJ
1 month, 1 week ago
I had similar thoughts. At what point is it no loner pedal assist? If it's not using a throttle lever or some type of discrete control, is it not technically a "throttle"? Does the e-bike classification system adequately define "Throttle"? If not, Bosch may exploiting a grey area between Class 1 & 2 e-bikes.
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SteveR
1 month, 1 week ago
At 70 it's likely sooner rather than later for me on an an e-bike. But, on the bike side as we see here and in other recent product announcements- boundaries are being stretched with increased power, speed and "extended boost". On the moto side- it's a rare ride this spring where I haven't encountered electric motos on strictly non-motorized city park multi-use trails and pathways. Previously this was the relatively low powered Surron type, hiding behind "it's electric so it's an e-bike", now often added to the mix are small but powerful electric dirt bikes. I know this is not the e-bikers fault, but I worry about where this convergence might lead. These concerns do not make me a "hater".
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ultimatist
1 month, 1 week ago
40 seconds... 40 minutes... loopholes. The war of numbers will not be stopped.
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Cam McRae
1 month, 1 week ago
Kind of but you can’t control it independently. There is no lever or controller. It just goes for two metres and of course can be turned off. I’m not sure if it can be detuned.
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Pete Roggeman
1 month, 1 week ago
It's for two metres, it's nothing like a throttle. This power overrun situation has always been something ebike motors do - it's just a way to let the power assist decrease gradually and with more flow. Ebike motors are also designed with different onsets of power - in many cases user-controllable - so you don't get overwhelmed by torque. It's more drastic when you add the power, but if you take it away too quickly, it's also very herky-jerky.
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Jotegir
1 month, 1 week ago
I was just through this on another site a few weeks ago regarding maximum output. And seeing the (apparently?) is an invitation for it here, I think! In Canada it varies from province to province but in British Columbia it is indeed a limit of 500w "continuous power output rating". To my understanding, because the 750w is accessible for more than a few seconds of boost, that means these ebikes are non-compliant.
Ebike regulations fall under the Motor Vehicle Act, which then kicks the can to the ebike regulations to define what sort of "motor assisted cycle" can operate on highways. Last year BC updated their ebike regulations to do away with the class 1-3 designation and replace them with the concept of "ebikes" and "light ebikes". A brief synposis of the difference is as follows: "ebikes" now combines the old class 1 and 2, i.e. they're allowed to have throttles with restrictions, can't be propelled past 32km/hr, and have a cap of 500w continuous output. "Light ebikes", on the other hand, are something new. No throttles allowed there, and they are capped at 25 km/hr and 250w continous power output.
But here's the kicker now: when reading the regulations with the Motor Vehicle Act, for something to be considered a "motor assisted cycle", and therefore be allowed to operate on highways (read: essentially all public roads) and ridden anywhere that a bike may be ridden, it has to be either an ebike or light ebike. And guess what? If it goes over 500w continuous, it's no longer meeting the definition of motor assisted cycle, and according to the Off Road Vehicle Regulation and Motor Vehicle act, as far as BC Law is concerned, are motor bikes (this means, at least in the case of 750w Bosch bikes and assuming they can hit 500+ for a "continouous" period, that BarryW is right! *shudder*) and need to be licensed by ICBC - which, of course, it does not do.
The next question is "what does this mean for trail users"? BC parks has yet to update their policies from the old class-based system, where class 1 were A-OK on trails and 2 to 3 are ok where motor vehicles are allowed. However, the Park, Conservancy and Recreation Area Regulation restricts motor vehicles to Park Roads*. As regulations trump policy, my interpretation is that any provincially managed trail system (over which the regulations apply) is now no good to anything that doesn't meet the new definition of ebike and light ebike.
*as an unregister-able motor vehicle, these ebikes aren't OK for provincial trail use OR highway, however.
Obviously enforcement is a big issue - nobody is really out there policing Surrons on our trails let alone ebikes that come in over 500w continuous, but personally I support this new regulation as:
1. it sure is simpler than the class 1-3 system; and
2. a lot of people aren't going to be stoked stoked that formerly class 1 ebikes can have throttles on trails now (possible policy updates aside), but it does create a system where there's room for both clarity and some reasonable restrictions on what is and isn't on-side. It further creates the possibility of reasonable compromises, like allowing "light e-bikes" on some sensitive networks but not standard ebikes - maybe there's a possibility that ebike access, at least in some zones, will become more restrictive? Wouldn't the haters get stoked on that!
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Mammal
1 month, 1 week ago
That's an interesting dive, thanks for that.
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Pete Roggeman
1 month, 1 week ago
There's a lot of grey area here - Uncle Dave is currently intrigued and looking into it. I am in the camp of '85Nm is more than enough'. However, you are going back and forth between sustained output and peak output, and those are different things.
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Jotegir
1 month, 1 week ago
"However, you are going back and forth between sustained output and peak output, and those are different things"
Well Pete, unlike your crew I don't have the benefit of an editor! Ha! I see reading again that a number of times I wrote "peak" when in fact I meant continuous power. I've cleaned it up to make sure it's clear that I am referring to the continuous power output as referred to in the regulation throughout, as I had intended.
In my first paragraph, I draw attention the 750w number and make an assumption that if you can hit this peak for a short period of time, it's probably continuous. Unfortunately, we don't have the benefit of knowing what "continuous power output rating" means as far as a court would be concerned. I have yet to see a case or other authority that throws a line in the sand as far as for long long that measurement lasts (everybody prosecuted under the regulations is breaking the "never break more than one law at a time" rule and the courts end up caring way more about the other stuff they were doing). There's probably an industry standard to differentiate the two, but until a court comments, we won't know as far as the regulations are concerned.
Having ridden a couple bosch bikes, anecdotally I feel like I can access close to the maximum power for as long as I can keep my legs spinning and before running out kilometers per hour - Where does the line fall between continuous and peak?
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Timer
1 month, 1 week ago
I'm kinda surprised that Canadian regulations appear to be so lax. In Europe, only "light ebikes" are classed as e-bikes at all. Anything else is a light motorbike and has to follow the same rules as e.g. motor-scooters. Including registration, insurance and being banned from cycle paths and unpaved roads in most contries.
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Kelownarider
1 month, 1 week ago
Problem is all ebikes (and the their riders) will get grouped together despite a massive difference in their power and speed. Ever been passed on a climb by a rider going 25 kmph faster than you? This is going to happen with these kind of power numbers. I am in favor of regulation so we don't lose access for all ebikes.
A 300w motor is plenty in my opinion to make the sport more inclusive and (for some) more fun. The added benefit of way closer trail speeds to other users.
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Mammal
1 month, 1 week ago
I've been blown by on pretty much every type of trail, by ever level rider skill, with every level of etiquette. In a couple cases, people are steadying themselves on your shoulder as they "squeeze" past you on narrow single track, or passing on a fire road at your 20+kmph delta with only a foot of clearance between myself and them. It's true that the worst (outlier) cases are the ones that get remembered and used as examples.
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Bikes
1 month, 1 week ago
Here’s my only issue with increasing power and speed limits.
Cyclist are hated by every other trail user. At the very least, when you are struggling uphill slowly you get some sympathy. When you are going uphill fast (even if struggling) that sympathy lessons. And that resentment builds.
Same as I don’t have a lot of sympathy for those that have to wait a second or two, or god forbid even 30 seconds, to pass a cyclist safety sitting in a chair inside an air conditioned car where they only have to move their feet and arms slightly.
Humans are lazy and adrenaline junkies will junky. So 20 mph and 100nm is good today until tech allows 25 mph and 130nm and on and on.
And yeah I’m not say e bike riders are lazy. But they are “lazy” in their quest for speed, whatever reason you want to give. And there will be more people riding 20mph on trails when tech allows anyone to do it.
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ultimatist
1 month, 1 week ago
This is spot on.
"Same as I don’t have a lot of sympathy for those that have to wait a second or two, or god forbid even 30 seconds, to pass a cyclist safety sitting in a chair inside an air conditioned car where they only have to move their feet and arms slightly."
The kind of inconsiderate dipshits that don't slow for horses or the elderly will cause an accident that will explode regulations and ill-will for all cyclists. These people live MOSTLY in the 'e-bike' camp, cause they MOSTLY don't have the mental or physical discipline and strength to ride a regular bike.
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Mike Ferrentino
1 month, 1 week ago
I think @Bikes nailed it, at least as far as my eldest oyster reservations regarding the slippery slope. But I am careful not to stereotype the users. The eebers I know are MOSTLY a lot faster and fitter than I am, regardless of whether they are kicking my ass old school or watt-dosing. Some of them are very disciplined people in both their fitness quest and how they live their lives. Some of them are huge contributors to trail work. Some of them are the same kind of guys who would poach the PCT on dirt bikes, laughing the whole way. And meanwhile, there are more than enough douchebags on regular old mountain bikes who are completely lacking even the most basic trail etiquette and social skills.
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Cam McRae
1 month, 1 week ago (below threshold) log in to show
Those are some fairly strong generalizations based on the kind of bike someone rides. What would you say about DH riders? Shuttlers? Motorcyclists? Park riders?
I know a lot of riders who sometimes ride eMTBs and none of them fit the description you have laid out above.
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Bikes
1 month, 1 week ago
Yep, way too strong a generalization.
The issue is if X% of people are inconsiderate and new tech allows more people to do a given activity, you’ll naturally have more inconsiderate people out there.
Personally think one-way, mtb dedicated trails are the only real way forward.
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ultimatist
1 month, 1 week ago
Do you know a lot of e-bikers in the Bay Area? You guys might realize the generalization fits down here. There are biker gangs blasting up dry single tracks, covering cyclists and pedestrians in clouds of dust. They’re covered in armor like Mad Max. I can absolutely see why hikers are trying to ban them.
Trust me, its real.
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Pete Roggeman
1 month, 1 week ago
No one's going to argue with you about what the norms are in your area - but by the same token you can't copy and paste your douchebags onto everyone else's trails. Don't make the generalist argument - add context and then we can understand better where you're coming from. What you're describing is not what we're seeing, and it's likely we ride in more places in a year than you do.
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XXX_er
1 month, 1 week ago (below threshold) log in to show
well yeah but those are Americans eh ? the only person I ever had to " have a word with " was an american veritably dripping with lycra
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Pete Roggeman
1 month, 1 week ago
People have been making this argument for a decade. We're still not hearing about more user conflicts involving e-bikers than we are all trail users. And the scenario you lay out about people not slowing for horses or other trail users is a scenario that is usually going to happen on flat or descending terrain - and you don't need a motor to go way too fast around another user in those scenarios.
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Bikes
1 month, 1 week ago
You definitely seem to hear about more conflict between e-bikes and pedestrians, but I think most is more urban bike path related, not mtb’ing.
In my area, the surron/e-dirtbike is a bane of trail systems. Poaching all trails and making new ones everywhere. Don’t underestimate the lay person inability to distinguish between those and an e-bike you’d read about here
But I have no study to back any of this up, lol
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XXX_er
1 month, 1 week ago
we banned horses so we don't have to slow for them
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jhtopilko
1 month, 1 week ago
I remember when fitness was more important than laziness. A lot of these folks would be better served with hitting the gym and riding a gravel bike.
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GrundleJ
1 month, 1 week ago
this is typical e-bike hate response. There is much more benefit to e-bikes than just making it easier. If laziness was the motivating factor to getting an ebike, these riders would just get motorcycles. It's not like e-bikes are in some intermediate price point between analog bikes and motorcycles.
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Mammal
1 month, 1 week ago
It's certainly not cut/dry that ebikers are looking for the easy way out... But to say they would just get motorcycles instead ignores the choice to be lazy and still access bike specific and many multi-use trail systems where motorcycles aren't allowed or are frowned upon. There is A LOT of that. Specifically in the Van/N.V. context, it takes a lot more time and effort to reach a proper moto area than it does to access prime mtb trails.
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ultimatist
1 month, 1 week ago
It's a tough situation. On one hand, nice to have more people get out in nature and ride bikes; and don't tell me e-bikes don't provide exercise. On the other hand, these chunky land tanks dominate SF trails and are a nuisance to the local fauna. I'd be more accepting if these e-bikers would ride from home, but they often single-load their e-bike into their lifted truck to drive a few miles to the trailhead...
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XXX_er
1 month, 1 week ago (below threshold) log in to show
I see WAY more people loading their amish bikes into a Toyota Tacoma (what else) at the bike area, they will come to their senses soon enough and trade it in on a Tundra
as for a dirt bike being easy back in the day it was WAY harder to hang onto a 220lb dirt bike than an Eeb, the arms would pump up after 10 minutes and everything ould hurt , you can buy a bike with a crazy power to weight ratio with your Visa, it sound like same thing for a mountain sled cuz those things are 400lbs and WAY more hp
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XXX_er
1 month, 1 week ago (below threshold) log in to show
Locally nobody cares if you ride n Eeb, the builder is on one, the maintaince guy tows his BOB trailer with all his tools including a leaf blower and a chain saw, the club executive specifically asked in the news letter for Eebers to adopt the furthest highest trails so blow down gets removed on a more timely basis, getting my saw up there is hard work even with 85nm's and i ride 7/24 with a silky big boy no probelm
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SockPuppet
1 month, 1 week ago
I don't have an e-mtb, but quite a few of the local group does including two of my main riding buddies. Based upon their calorie expenditure and heartrate stats, they are working just as hard as they did on analog bikes. The only thing is they are doing twice the distance and their speed is significantly faster. I don't even bother trying to hang anymore cause they are gone after about 10-15 minutes max and I'm redlined and anerobic. Now I just bust their balls in post ride bench racing.
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XXX_er
1 month, 1 week ago (below threshold) log in to show
IME one just rides longer/ further on an Eeb in zone 2 at about 110 BPM and actulay loses more weight than if they were constantly stopping cuz they are in the puking zone. I got a buddy who almost died from cancer and so he can't ride without an Eeb and personaly I do hit the gym but I am older than dirt with a knee issue
but still every time some one hits the power switch a kitten dies
this is a very timely artical cuz yesturday the EP8 shit the bed with the dreaded E010 1022 error which is code for so its probably facked after almost 5 seasons/ 5600kms/ at 12 kph SO I would appreciate a Shimano- Bosch compro
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Cam McRae
1 month, 1 week ago
That’s one way to look at it.
Or it’s getting people outside and exercising and that may be a gateway to better health and lifestyle. I don’t see the same judgement about riders who only shuttle or only ride park or who ride motorcycles. And it’s a myth that you can’t get fit riding an eMTB. I was on a ride last night and some very fit riders (an Olympian even) were working hard and breathing hard. I am returning from an illness and I was shattered by the end of the ride. Maybe it’s not the tool you use, it’s how you use it.
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Bikes
1 month, 1 week ago
I thought the conversation was on the power creep. Everytime a larger more powerful assist comes out, there are people that say it’s okay because x y and z.
So where is the limit? And yeah, I hate slippery slope arguments but the whole topic started on this grey zone of unassisted boost (which seems like it would be super unnatural but that just like my opinion man)
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bikinbikinbikin
1 month, 1 week ago
(Not that it’s all that important but) I’m not sure that it’s a slippery slope - I think we crossed a pretty firmly established line when we lumped eMTB’s in with mountain bikes, even though for over a hundred years the line between bicycles and mopeds/motorcycles has always been determined by the power source, not how and where you ride the thing.
Now the power to weight ratio is climbing up so it may be time to ask if one’s looking for a mountain bike with a little boost, or looking to ride a nimble moto on mountain bike trails (similar to how my e longtail to me is basically a right size Moto that I'm allowed to ride on urban bike infrastructure)
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Mammal
1 month, 1 week ago
Of course the Olympian was on an ebike, Dre has megavolt entries to sell;)
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Gavin Francis
1 month, 1 week ago
Horses for courses in my eyes. I've got a gravel bike, go to the gym, and I also thoroughly enjoy riding my ebike.
The end result is that I get out for more rides because the ebike is easy to reach for, even when I'm tired from work, gravelin', or whatever else.
I'd much rather get out for 3-4 ebike laps in the evenings as opposed to 1-2 rides a week on a good ol' fashion bike when the stars align and I've got the energy.
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leon-forfar
1 month, 1 week ago
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leon-forfar
1 month, 1 week ago
I remember when having fun while riding was more important than fitness or laziness. Oh wait, it still is.
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Shopton
1 month, 1 week ago
So this one actually 100% propels it self for a preset distance?
I’ve got no real beef with these things, but c’mon, let’s call a spade a spade.
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Pete Roggeman
1 month, 1 week ago
Two. Metres.
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Shopton
1 month, 1 week ago
I get it, it’s just two meters. What’s the maximum distance you’d be OK with? What’s the maximum ride by it self number that would preclude a test by NSMB?
In my experience, small differences matter.
They. Matter. A. Lot.
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Pete Roggeman
1 month, 1 week ago
I'm not arguing these things aren't creeping, nor that there is a line. However, if there's one thing I've seen, over and over, it's that people that make arguments against ebikes won't be stopped by anything in their desire to find a handhold. And this ain't it.
If you've ridden ebikes, you'll know that if motor overrun started to be tuned to be too much, it would make them uncontrollable. Putting in a pedal stroke in between turns, but the overrun is, say, five meters? You definitely don't want your motor running in the braking zone.
Just settle down, think it through. What Bosch is talking about here is not a change from what already existed, they're just actually talking about it now. I don't think we need more power - I think 85Nm is plenty. The innovation I want to see are smaller/more efficient batteries and lighter systems overall.
Overrun creep is not the threat. Power likely is - that, and irresponsible marketing language.
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Shopton
1 month, 1 week ago
Thanks Pete.
The over run on this bosch unit and the new shimano update is far greater than older model over runs that were designed to smooth out the power output. This has a different purpose entirely.
I'm not looking for a silver bullet. Whether it be power, over run, whatever. I just wish these things were presented more accurately as entirely different things than regular mountain bikes. Like em or not, that's not my point.
Lets not confuse criticism with an attack.
**Pretty luxurious time to be alive, when stuff like this ruffles my feathers!
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bikinbikinbikin
1 month, 1 week ago
I’m with you on how these are marketed and named: the line between bicycles and everything else is always the motor, but the way to sell and understand these is as a powered mountain bike. As a result folks are all twisted up by attempting to reconcile the difference by splitting hairs on lower levels, throttles and “overrun” etc. so they don’t have to call it a moped.
Shoreboy
1 month, 1 week ago
Saw an example on one of the reviews that had the rider doing pedal kicks and making his way up the climb with this motor. Repeated kicks used the over run continuously to get him up the hill.
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bikinbikinbikin
1 month, 1 week ago
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Bikes
1 month, 1 week ago
So maybe pedantic, but if you need level pedals to clear a technical climb and can’t generate the speed on your own while pedaling (even with a motor assisting while pedaling) and need a motor to assist without pedaling….you didn’t clear that technical climb.
At least not in my definition of clearing a climb on a bike
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Bigbikerida
1 month, 1 week ago
Bosch should put energy generators on each cranks. Every watt would be converted to power which could charge the motor. Of course the noise would be loud and there would need to be a minimum amount of watt output in order to charge the motor. but its just a thought..
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Cam McRae
1 month, 1 week ago
I don't think I understand what you are suggesting. Or what would be loud. Regenerative braking makes sense to me but I don't get this.
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XXX_er
1 month, 1 week ago (below threshold)
yesterday (before my motor shit the bed for good) I nodded at a girl in the p-lot to go ahead and she said you might as well go first on an Eeb and so ime people usually have a level of give and take
its interesting no body has even discussed the artical that was written its all just complaining about the Eebs
by people who will almost 99% assuredly end up on one
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XXX_er
1 month, 1 week ago (below threshold)
So while our american cousins may think Eebers are the antichrist but Trump is OK, The local area much of which was built with MOF grants by some Eebrs has a beautiful BC parks sign that sez " class 1 only no 2 or 3 "
in real life the trails are so tight my 5600 kms was at an average speed of 12kph so more speed would do absolutley zero for me and more power wouldn't do anything either . but and i would say an amish bike goes about half as fast as the 12KPH so the Eeb is either ahead or behind the Amish guy and then you don't see them again
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