Deniz merdano cam santa cruz vala cover
First Impressions Review

2025 Santa Cruz Vala eMTB

Photos Deniz Merdano
Reading time

Hell hasn't frozen over, the locusts are not upon us, but Santa Cruz has veered from the path. For the first time since 2001, Santa Cruz is launching a long travel bike* that doesn't feature VPP; the dual counter-rotating link suspension system that has been the cornerstone of their product line since the turn of the century, and something that inoculated them from the "looks like a Session" meme. And yes, you can blame ebikes.

*The current Blur uses a linkage driven single pivot with flex stays, a platform they call Superlight™. And there are a few other examples in the archives.

Deniz merdano cam santa cruz vala 3 copy

It's a clean looking machine that doesn't give off beastly e-monster vibes. On my scale, with a little dirt on it, my size large tester weighed 47.78lb or 22.13kg.

2025 Santa Cruz Vala Highlights

  • BOSCH Performance Line CX 85Nm motor
  • 600 Wh battery (250 Wh aftermarket extender)
  • MX (mullet!) Wheel (29 front, 27 rear)*
  • 150mm Rear Travel
  • 160mm Fork Travel
  • SM-XXL Frame Sizes
  • CC & C Carbon Frames
  • All bikes under 50lb (22.7kg)
  • Adjustable Geo
  • Adjustable Progression
  • Four Bar Suspension (with Horst Link)
  • Size-specific rear centres

*can't we be done with the misleading .5 already?

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The shock mount flip chip adjusts the progression of the rear shock. Thus far I've only ridden the bike in the low progression mode.

Deniz merdano cam santa cruz vala 27

The geometry flip chip swaps between head tube angles of 63.9 and 64.3 and BB heights of 340 and 344mm.

As Santa Cruz eMTB product manager, Jack Russell explains on the Roller Door Podcast, this bike replaces the Heckler 9 (but not the Heckler SL) and the company wanted to use a different motor; "I've ridden every system on the market, including plenty of systems that, as of this recording aren't released yet, and we found that the new Bosch system, which this bike has, was the best fit for this bike." The problem was the new Bosch system isn't compatible with VPP because the system's dual links couldn't be mounted low enough. It turns out the new Santa Cruz, under PON leadership, isn't dogmatic. As Jack put it, "we just make the best bike we can." One of the goals was to achieve lower anti-squat values as the company has strived to do with their human powered bikes.

2025 Santa Cruz Vala suspension choice

VPP won't produce the characteristics that Santa Cruz is after, in particular reduced anti-squat, because the links would have to be positioned too high.

Bosch's new Performance CX Motor

So what's up with this new motor? It starts with a strong pedigree, considering how well-received the previous Bosch CX Performance motor was and there is much that remains; it still pumps out 85 Nm of torque/600 watts peak power, and 340% max assistance, and is about the same shape. The biggest difference is the now-infamous rattle, mainly noticeable coasting downhill on rough trails, has been banished. I haven't noticed it once after two huge rides along the Sea to Sky and a couple of local rips, and the difference it makes to the ride experience is remarkable. It also may be a little quieter under power, but if that is the case it's much less dramatic. The motor is also 100g lighter than the previous version.

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The test bike I received had no Bosch badge on the motor but it seems that other production bikes will be branded, for better or worse.

Some other minor tweaks involve a "Hill Hold" feature for starting on steep climbs (which I haven't yet noticed) and there is some mention of Extended Boost in EMTB mode which puzzles me because that feature already existed. Perhaps it has been tweaked some? Essentially it will pedal for you for a moment after you either finish pedalling or ratchet your pedal but in EMTB mode only.

Bosch 600Wh Powertube Battery (+Extender)

Bosch has launched two new batteries to go along with their new motor. The biggest is an 800Wh powerhouse, which at 3.9kg (8.6lbs) weighs 600g (1.3lbs) less than their previous 750Wh plant. Santa Cruz decided on the smaller 600Wh battery for the Vala to save 900g for a battery that weighs 3.0kg (6.6lbs). The batteries are the same length but the 600 is also slimmer, allowing for a more svelte downtube. The decision to opt for the 600 was based on weight and handling. Jack Russell mentioned that the battery weight, "really has an impact on ride performance. It puts more weight on the front wheel that messes with where your weight bias is." He also mentioned that they've been getting feedback that "people aren't into the pregnant downtube look," and this bike cuts quite an elegant figure as a result. There is also a 250Wh extender available (525 USD ) which comes with a bracket that allows it to nest where the water bottle normally resides and a cable to connect it to your bike. It is not however, svelte.

Deniz merdano cam santa cruz vala 40

The Vala loved Ned's on Mount Seymour.

The Vala Frame

Santa Cruz's engineers and designers settled upon the anti-squat, leverage, progression and other numbers first and then reverse-engineered the four-bar kinematics to match. You aren't stuck with the stock numbers though. This bike has two distinct adjustments you can make; progression and geo. The geometry is adjusted using a simple flip chip where the seat stays meet the rocker link but, unlike most designs, you don't need to remove the bolts to rotate the chips. You simply loosen the bolts until the chips push out from the frame, rotate them to the opposite position, and then tighten the bolts. To adjust progression you need to remove the bottom shock bolt and choose the other position. If you are keen to run a coil, choose the more progressive setting.

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The bolt on guide for the brake line and the small integrated fender are examples of the clever attention to detail and excellent fit and finish of this bike.

Deniz merdano cam santa cruz vala 34

The teeth on this chain stay protector likely contribute to the silky silence of the Vala going down.

I have only used the slack/low geo and low progression settings after two massive rides and two local pedals. The head angle goes from 64.2º to 63.9º and the bottom bracket height goes from 344mm to 340 while the progression, based on the graph below, changes from an initial value of approximately 3.1:1 to 2.95:1 while both converge at approximately 2.2:1 at full travel. Below I have posted the graphs supplied by Santa Cruz for progression, anti-squat and anti-rise which seems to suggest the Heckler 9, which the Vala replaces, was somewhat compromised by shoehorning a motor beneath the VPP links.

Component Spec

The bike I rode was the XO1 AXS Reserve model which came with SRAM Maven Silver brakes, which solidified my affection for them. The fork was a tried and true Fox 38 Factory while the shock is a Fox Float X Factory. Other highlights are Reserve Carbon wheels with DT 350 hubs, an XO1 T-Type drivetrain, Schwalbe Radial Magic Mary tires (a first for Santa Cruz - more on these below), a 200mm OneUp V3 post, and a Santa Cruz Carbon bar.

Deniz merdano cam santa cruz vala 15

Clean and tidy. The Bosch controller isn't new like the motor is, but it's wireless and intuitive to use.

Deniz merdano cam santa cruz vala 14

I am in the camp that likes the AXS pod controllers but this rocker paddle addition is even better.

On the Trail with the New Bosch Motor

I have a grand total of four rides on this bike. One climb and descent of 1551m/20km (5000'/13m) in the Fraser Valley, a ride with similar vertical a little north of Squamish, a 627m/20km outing for photos with Deniz and an 800m/14km ride this evening, so I have some data. The battery has surprised me. On the 1551 metre day I was a little careful with the battery and I did some of the climb in Tour, which is the second power level above Eco, a large portion in EMTB and the rest in Turbo and I finished with 17% battery left. The Squamish ride was all in either EMTB of Turbo and I had slightly less, likely because the climb was steeper and rougher. The take home is that thus far my range anxiety has been unwarranted. I can't be as indiscriminate about dropping into Turbo as I can on the bikes I've ridden with 750 or 900Wh batteries but I don't need to be as careful as I feared. The combination of a more efficient motor* and a lighter bike make a surprising difference to battery life.

*I've heard this but have yet to see any documentation.

Deniz merdano cam santa cruz vala 38

Enjoy the Silence. I'm actually a little amazed by how much more satisfying trail time is without the Bosch (or Shimano) rattle.

The best news is the now-banished rattle. I wouldn't say it drove me crazy but its absence has made a significant difference to my enjoyment of the bike. On one particularly long and very loamy descent, there were moments when it felt like I was floating or skiing powder; sensations that are not compatible with a can full of nickels attached to your bottom bracket.

Deniz merdano cam santa cruz vala 45

The Vala tracks confidently in corners and swaps sides so quickly you'll forget it's an eMTB.

THE RIDE

While I have 60km and 4500m of descending on this bike over four rides, it's still early days. Our first ride was so steep and loamy that the rear suspension could have been blown. The Squamish ride was bonier and had some rock faces but it was mostly steep low speed tech. On some very challenging trails after only a day or two, the Vala was very easy to get along with. I like the Geo, despite the 477 reach (size large, low setting) being a little shorter than I'm used to. Keeping the bar uncut at 800mm made this transition a little easier. The 77.5º (effective) seat tube angle felt great and the bike motored (literally) up some very steep and rough Squamish climbs.

Out in the Fraser Valley we were also riding steeps, often with relatively abrupt catch berms at the bottom. The Vala frame felt very stout in these situations and after a few swoops I pushed my front wheel confidently into the duff with increasing vigour.

Once I got onto some faster trails on the Shore, it became clear that I had more tuning to do in the rear. The wheel wasn't as eager to get out of the way of impacts as I'd like and it felt a little skittish at speed. Part of this issue is coming off the Norco Range VLT with 180mm travel up front and 170mm rear, 20mm more per end than the Vala. Another element is likely the heft disparity. The Vala is thirteen pounds (6kg) lighter than the Range and based on my experience, that's not entirely positive. A light bike is nice but there is a cost in stability and suspension activation - and a heavier bike has the benefit of a larger disparity between sprung and unsprung weight.

The counterpoint is that you can throw a lighter bike around more easily, you'll get more range and bunny hopping is a breeze. More saddle time is necessary to see how much stability I can wring out of the Vala. Obviously it's unlikely to be as stable and plush as the eMTB equivalent of a DH bike but from what I've experienced thus far, I'm sure there is more to come.

Deniz merdano cam santa cruz vala 9

The Radial Schwalbe Magic Mary tires have an interesting feel. I've heard of some riders cranking the pressure to 35psi to get the support they are looking for. I have cranked them some but I'm not sure how I feel about the extra firmness, even though they are more compliant than others with some extra PSI on board.

Deniz merdano cam santa cruz vala 8

I tried going to 25 rear and 23 front and while it felt like less than that, the conditions were a little snotty and the traction was unpredictable. These seem to have a more lively feel and the carcass seems to deform more uniformly for a little more comfort and, possibly, traction but more time is needed. Overall though I like these tires.

Bottom Line

The overwhelming sensation I experience riding the Vala is balance. It's easy to confidently weight both tires in corners and any move that requires a slow ratchet to set up before tipping in is there for the taking. The improved Bosch Motor doesn't seem much quieter on the way up to me, and there's still an element of whine on harder efforts but I haven't ridden a full powered motor that is quieter. On the way down however, all you hear is tires on dirt and wind through your helmet; there is no longer any annoying rattle from the motor.

Deniz merdano cam santa cruz vala 43
2025 Santa Cruz Vala kits and prices

As tested, the Vala XO1 Reserve model I've been testing retails for 11,500 USD.

Corresponding CAD prices are 9500, 11,100, 12,400,15,000 and 16,700.

The 600Wh battery gave me pause at first but it seems to punch above its weight and I've been able to get a lot done with battery left over. Heavier riders who like very long rides may want to consider the 250Wh PowerMore range extender for a total of 850Wh. Personally, at least at this point, I would have preferred the 2lb penalty of the 800Wh stock battery rather than the expensive and heavy strap-on that eliminates your bottle cage. I'll keep an open mind though and we'll see how I feel once the range extender Bosch is sending arrives at my door.

MY25_Vala_green_profile_desktop

Beyond the gloss grey of the bike I have been testing, the Vala comes in Midnight Green as pictured here.

Another question I have is about weight. There are elements I like about this lighter approach to a full power eMTB (like putting it in a truck or on top of a car) and others I'm reserving judgement on. I'll be back in a few months with the full review and a verdict.

Santa Cruz Bicycles

Deniz merdano cam santa cruz vala 36

Winston the photo bomber.

cam@nsmb.com
Cam McRae

Height - 6'/183cm (mostly legs)

Weight - 165lbs/75kg

Inseam - 37"/94cm. (turns out I hadn't measured correctly previously)

Ape Index - 0.986

Age - 58

Trail I've been stoked on lately - Sam's Dad's Trail

Bar Width - 760mm

Preferred Reach - 485-500mm

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Comments

TomM
+11 cxfahrer tmoore hotlapz Merwinn Cam McRae ohio mtnfriend Brian Moreaux dhr999 Pete Roggeman Mike Kittmer lev3000 KawaBunghole

I'm not in the market for a new ebike but I appreciate NSMB reviewing what's out there.  Same goes for regular bikes.  Sooner or later I might want to replace either my regular bike or my ebike so it's good to know what the fine folks here think of what's currently available.

Reply

DaveSmith
+11 Cam McRae Perry Schebel Bikeryder85 Jerry Willows Jotegir FlipSide Mike Kittmer Jan AJ Barlas Todd Hellinga Radam

I wish they had called it the VP-free.

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xy9ine
+3 Dave Smith Shmarv Radam

i'm hoping they do something special when/if they ever reboot the super-8. would be rad if they did something anachronistic / retro-tech, like a (modern geometry) long travel aluminum single pivot, but this is pon, so more likely another carbon ebike. surprised they've yet to yoink on we oldies' nostalgic heartstrings with that name, though.

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DaveSmith
+5 Perry Schebel lev3000 Metacomet Shmarv Radam

8" dual crown e-bike ?

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xy9ine
+2 Metacomet Shmarv

that'd be rad, actually. self shuttle cypress special.

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Kenny
+1 Cam McRae

While I have no real interest in ebikes, having just ridden jersey shore and meat sweats for the first time this weekend, I admit I can see the point of such a rig in this type of scenario.

Reply

Runed
+10 Mic BarryW Joseph Crabtree Frorider LAT phillyforester Raymond Epstein Abies Dude@ Shoreboy Cr4w Jerry Willows burnskiez dave_f Shopton Peter Leeds KawaBunghole trioofchaos Konrad R.bobbby RG Jan nothingfuture utopic rolly hotlapz Sandy James Oates Ryan Merwinn Cam McRae 4Runner1 Brian Moreaux dhr999 turd_alert lev3000 Alex_L gregster77 Shmarv

Is anyone else absolutely fed up with constant e bike updates.

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Mic
+4 LAT Merwinn Cam McRae IslandLife trioofchaos Konrad Shmarv E-wok

I am not planning on buying an e-bike, I have colleagues at work who do commute daily with e-bikes, I have no hate but am just not inclined to read about them or buy one in the near future.

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cxfahrer
+10 LAT Andy Eunson Merwinn Cam McRae IslandLife mtnfriend FlipSide Brian Moreaux Mike Kittmer AJ Barlas Shmarv E-wok

Updates are always interesting. Ebikes not so much - but from a tech viewpoint I like to be informed.

It is the same as reading about some super sportscar - I never would buy one and I don't need any more cars, but it's technology that I like.

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FlipSide
+1 Brian Moreaux Brad Sedola E-wok

Same. I like bikes, gear and technology, so I read eBike-related stuff, but have no intention to ride an eBike for the next few years. If I had unlimited funds, storage space and riding time, I'd have one already, but the reality is that I am much closer to buying a fat bike.

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rolly
+14 tmoore Sandy James Oates Ryan IslandLife ohio mtnfriend Cam McRae 4Runner1 XXX_er Brian Moreaux dhr999 Pete Roggeman lev3000 Shmarv

Not one bit. This reminds me of when 29'ers first started becoming popular. It took a few years for companies to dial them in. The early iterations were clumsy. Now they're great. I want them to keep improving these ebikes so that they'll be dialed when I'm ready to jump on board.

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cam@nsmb.com
+7 Andy Eunson Cooper Quinn ohio Tjaard Breeuwer trioofchaos Konrad DancingWithMyself Shmarv Peter Leeds

Point taken.

I’m not sure if you are referring to the industry overall or NSMB specifically but this timing wasn’t intentional. We would normally avoid posting two eMTB reviews in quick succession as we are sensitive to the fact that many of our readers aren’t ready for an eMTB yet - and that some may never be.

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syncro
-1 Jon Harris bullit Peter Leeds mtnfriend 4Runner1 lev3000 Shmarv

Has there been any thoughts on having two sites? NSMB and NSMBe?

Reply

Jotegir
+2 Konrad Shmarv

Adding 'e' to stuff that already sort of has an 'e' sound is never going to get old.

Reply

syncro
-1 Shmarv

Not sure why people would down vote the NSMBe idea as it's a convenient way for people to choose what they want to see. Content related to both pedal and ebikes can be posted to both sites, and for people that don't want to see any ebike content they have a convenient way to bypass it. Sure it's a little bit of extra work on the back end, but it's not anything that's going to break the bank. Plus from an advertising and revenue perspective it actually raises the possibility of being more profitable as it allows the site to do targeted advertising for each type of rider. Honestly I think it's a win/win/win. 

Cam, I get 1% of net profits if you do it.

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deleted_user_1211
+1 lev3000 Shmarv ohio

This comment has been removed.

Kever
+4 Cam McRae lev3000 ohio Shmarv

I'm OK with the coexistence of e and normal bike content. I'm e-curious. IMO it's the way of the future on the shore. Seems more efficient than burning dino bones on the shuttle up. 

When the Cypress climb opens, long travel e-bikes will for sure become more prevalent on the east side.

cam@nsmb.com
0

Any update on that climb Kever?

Kever
0

Things are happening up there, Cam. The climb is supposed to open this fall but opening may get pushed back to Spring.

lev3000
+2 Shmarv E-wok

We are all riders. Next you’ll be suggesting e-bikers shouldn’t sit on certain parts of a bus

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syncro
0 ohio Shmarv

lol - really?

You probably don't know but I've taken a lot of shit over the years for saying that I don't see a problem with ebikers sharing the same trails as long as they're using good trail etiquette. It's cost me friendships with people who are more vocally opposed to ebikes on the trails.

Part of the reason for my suggestion is the continual pissing and moaning about ebike content. I usually read the ebike reviews, but can do without the complaining about them. I'll admit it felt a bit odd to see one review right after another and it made me wonder what's happening here, is regular NSMB content going to get supplanted by ebike content? 

So for me, separating the two seems like a relatively simple solution that would probably keep most people happy.

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andy-eunson
0

Nitrogen, Sulphur, Molybdenum Beryllium?

Reply

deleted_user_1211
+1 Shmarv

This comment has been removed.

XXX_er
+15 Cam McRae 4Runner1 bullit Brian Moreaux Brad Sedola dhr999 turd_alert Kos tmoore Squint lev3000 Shmarv E-wok C_Drago damientheo

It sez right in the title " eMTB "  so, you knew what you were clicking on,   SO why do people who don't want to read E-bike content read the e-bike content and then  post  that they don't want to read E-bike content ?

If i don't want to read about a subject lets take ferinstance  Taylor Swift, I just don't read it,   I know almost nothing about Taylor Swift or any of her songs altho I do know she is wildy successful

SO what am I missing here ?

with apologizies to any Swifties i may have POed

Reply

4Runner1
+1 Cam McRae Brian Moreaux tmoore lev3000 E-wok burnskiez Peter Leeds Jan Shmarv

Nope! More e content please.

Reply

Ride.DMC
+6 Brian Moreaux tmoore trioofchaos DanL ZigaK Shmarv

You're not required to read these articles. Heck half the time I visit this site it's just to check and see if there is a new 'Beggars Would Ride' piece out - and if there's not, I close my browser and get on with my day.

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Sethimus
+3 tmoore lev3000 Shmarv

Easy solution: click only on the content you want to read and leave out the ones you don‘t. not everything in life is here to please you. also, comments like yours are annoying.

Reply

deleted_user_1211
+1 Shmarv

This comment has been removed.

Sean_D
0

Not me, though I often scroll past e-bike articles. You don't have to try every dish at the buffet.

Reply

g-42
+6 Cam McRae Cr4w ohio Allen Lloyd Konrad Shmarv

At 215#, rather than Cam's 170, I have to push really hard to get 4000' out of the same sized battery with a Shimano EP801. My bike is only about 2# heavier, so that's not all that relevant. But even after accounting for the rider weight difference (which is huge in climbing - it's surprising how much range light riders can squeeze out of tiny batteries), that Bosch motor must be quite a bit more efficient. 

That's the sort of thing that would be a really cool thing to bench test - take a bunch of ebikes you have on test, pull the motors, and test output and power consumption. How about you team up with a group of eager engineering students at SFU or UBC, you'll get some seriously useful content for NSMB and they'd get great fodder for some term papers.

Reply

craw
+3 Jerry Willows ohio Shmarv

I'm 240 all geared up. We are in the nascent stages of ebikes and none of them are optimized for anyone this size. It took the industry 30+ years to offer decent XXLs so I wonder how long it will take for ebikes to move from the cash grab/entice low-commitment normies/adoption phase into the "let's make sure these are really good for the outliers too" phase. Being an outlier with these early adopter products is risky since you were absolutely not part of the design brief. That will come much later after enough of us destroy these things.

Reply

kos
+1 Cam McRae

Flow MTB does a lot of field testing for climbing efficiency. Perhaps not as precise as bench testing, but quite illuminating.

To be clear, that site is NOWHERE near as cool or fun as NSMB!

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cam@nsmb.com
+5 ohio XXX_er Metacomet DancingWithMyself Shmarv

So the Vala weighed in at 47.76 lb size large with some dirt aboard. 

Installing a 240 post right now to see if I can get it low enough.

Success. I can get a OneUp 240 all the way down. I don’t need it that low but nice to know. 

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craw
+3 Dave Smith DanL Shmarv

This reminds me of when Metallica release the Black Album with "Nothing Else Matter" and all the jean jackets were like "this is weirdly off-brand for us".

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DanL
+1 Kyle Dixon

and it didn't get any better after that

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syncro
+2 Andy Eunson Konrad

Are the new motors compatible with frames that have the old motors?

If yes then that's a good move and something the bike industry needs to do more of. 

If not then boo as it seems like planned obsolescence and further degrades the image the bike industry has for me in terms of constantly changing and varied standards. AKA using the purchasing public as their test mule to figure out what works.

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cam@nsmb.com
+1 Mark

I meant to ask about the form factor of the new motor but haven’t yet. I’ll try to track that down for you.

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XXX_er
+2 Cr4w Andy Eunson

I agree it would be nice if all motors fit all E-bikes, hopefully if my EP8 shits the bed I can find another  EP8 or by that time the  the whole bike will be junk

I e-mailed SC to ask what grease ( waterproof marine )  to use on the zerk fitting in the link, they got back to me with the answer in < 24hrs so i was impressed with their support

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cooperquinn
+2 Andy Eunson Mike Ferrentino

It's not going to happen. Look at cars, and motorcycles.

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syncro
+1 Andy Eunson

Oh I don't expect it to happen as it eats into potential profits and we all know our capitalist based society put profits at the top of the importance ladder. But being the stupid consumers that we are we don't demand these sorts of changes and just happily gobble up whatever shit gets spoon fed to us. Just like we get the governments we deserve, we also get the products we deserve.

BTW, if anyone hasn't noticed, automobiles are now being built as disposable items with planned obsolescence in the design process. Why build a reliable car people can keep for 20, 25, 30yrs year or more when they can just sell us some disintegrating POS instead?

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zigak
+1 Mark

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cam@nsmb.com
+1 E-wok

The EP8000, EP8 and EP801 have the same mounting and shape but apparently the battery would also need to be swapped out because of the battery management system changed between EP8 and EP801.

Reply

craw
+3 Shoreboy AJ Barlas ZigaK

Caveat emptor on all of this stuff my dudes. Anyone who buys a new high-spec e-bike today better be ready for it to be nearly worthless in <3 years.

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andy-eunson
+1 Jerry Willows Konrad E-wok

That’s one thing that needs to be addressed. Cross compatibility of batteries and motors. This is one thing that keeps me from wanting an ebike. The fact that I probably don’t have the skills to repair them is another.

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XXX_er
0

The motor can break I was completely screwed once in 5300kms, but its mostly about fixing all the same stuff  that breaks or needs adjusting on a regular enduro type bike unless of course you actualy want to get into fixing E-bike motors 

But there are maybe 5 brands with several different models and IMO depot service is  a better option

as pointed out above shiman0 EP8000/ EP8/ EP801 will all fit in the same place on a frame but the entire system controls/ battery/ motor has to be swapped out

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deleted_user_1211
0

This comment has been removed.

LoamtoHome
+3 Dave Smith FlipSide dhr999 Cr4w E-wok

The e-bike industry is following a trend of planned obsolescence. What used to be the norm—60-pound e-bikes—has shifted to 50 pounds, and some still hover at the higher weight. However, with advancements in drone motor technology and the impending arrival of solid-state batteries, we can probably expect the standard weight to drop further to 40 pounds in a few years.  

Chargers are not compatible between brands, no mounting standards and motors are not upgradeable from one version to the next.  

I'll sit on the sidelines till things sort themselves out.  Buddy of mine forgot to charge his bike so he missed out on a ride....  lol

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cam@nsmb.com
0

Shimano kept the same form factor between generations of their motor. I’m not sure about this one though. It is apparently a little smaller but it could till fit in the same void. 

I’ll see if I can find out.

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LoamtoHome
+2 Andy Eunson Todd Hellinga

Wouldn’t it be nice if you could mount a Bosch motor in a bike that came with a Shimano motor or vice versa?  Knowing the bike industry, that’s about 20 years from now.  It would be a huge selling point but bike industry.

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cooperquinn
+1 Cr4w

That'll never happen. And why would it? Shimano doesn't want you to be able to replace your Shimano motor with a Bosch, and vice versa. From a manufacturer's perspective, it's nonsensical to make everything swappable. And that doesn't get in to the ECU's and battery compatiblity that would also be required. 

You can't put a Yamaha motor on a Kawasaki, either.

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mikeferrentino
+3 Perry Schebel Jerry Willows mnihiser

(Rummages through old photos to find pictures of the many, many motor/frame frankenstein dirt bikes my dad built... Kawasaki KLX with a Honda XL motor, scads of 2-stroke motocross frame/4-stroke trailbike motor conversions. Just sayin'. But it would have been way harder if those frames were molded carbon fiber!)

LoamtoHome
0 Kyle Dixon Graham Driedger

fair point but at least be able to use a new Bosch system in an old Bosch system.  I used a Shimano derailleur on a SRAM shifter and cassette....

kos
0

Crikey, I can’t even put a Shimano cassette on a SRAM driver!

Ain’t gonna happen.

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Kenny
+2 Kos Kyle Dixon

Yeah, but you could buy a different driver for 100-150 bucks, as opposed to a whole new frame.

deleted_user_1211
+1 ZigaK Andy Eunson DancingWithMyself

This comment has been removed.

Sethimus
0

nope, different mounting pattern. but new cx has the same pattern as the sx motor, so you can build frames that take both motors, like the new m1, where you can choose the motor and which battery (400, 600 or 800wh)

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Kenny
+2 Shoreboy Brian Moreaux KawaBunghole Cooper Quinn Cr4w ZigaK 4Runner1 Cam McRae dhr999 lev3000

> It's a clean looking machine that doesn't give off beastly e-monster vibes.

Who are you trying to convince? If this is really our perception then the bike industry have truly boiled the frog. 

It looks like a ghastly bloated generic moped to my eyes. No thanks.

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cam@nsmb.com
0

LOL! 

Just calling it as I see it in relation to what most eMTBs look like.

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Mic
+1 Mammal

The Santa Cruz looks like a Radon/Cube/Generic eBike...odd.

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rigidjunkie
+1 roil

When does the tire review come out?  I normally run a higher pressure in my tires and have been happy with Schwable in the past. These are the most intriguing new product I have seen in years.

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cam@nsmb.com
+5 Cr4w mtnfriend Allen Lloyd DancingWithMyself E-wok

We haven’t talked about whether we will test Schwalbe’s radial tech as part of this review or whether we’ll get another set. We didn’t find out SC had spec’ed these until 10 days ago. One way or another we’ll get to it because like you, we are interested.

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rigidjunkie
0

The billing it gets as being different is intriguing.  You are the first group I have seen who talked about them at all.

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shoreboy
+1 Cr4w Peter Leeds JSW07 lev3000 Shmarv

I find it quite interesting that a company that has built its entire reputation/brand on VPP will throw it out the window just to sell a bike with a motor.

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craw
+6 Kenny 4Runner1 Raymond Epstein JSW07 Kyle Dixon Shmarv

> It turns out the new Santa Cruz, under PON leadership, isn't dogmatic.

"It will make money, just get it done."

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Captain-Snappy
+4 Cam McRae ohio bullit Shmarv

Yeti, Norco, Giant... they all do it. Rather than stick with a bike that doesn't ride well for the sake of keeping VPP, they leveraged the expired patent and created a bike that rides well which ultimately strengthens their reputation in engineering good performing MTBs.

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roil
+1 4Runner1

Crestline just launched a VPP ebike with the new Bosch motor. Not saying it's better or worse. Beyond brand name, the Vala doesn't offer anything unique. I'm sure it's a great bike but it isn't as compelling of an offering when I can get a similar ebike for much less.

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cam@nsmb.com
+3 Kos DancingWithMyself Shmarv C_Drago Peter Leeds

That seems like an over simplification to me. They were already selling bikes with motors and they aren’t saying that they are giving up on VPP, only that it doesn’t work well for bikes with some motors, and in particular this motor. 

Yeti and Ibis have done the same thing with their eMTBs and I don’t believe people were making the leap you have taken here. 

Personally I’d prefer to have a bike that works well over one that is shoe-horned into a less effective platform simply for optics, PR and consistency.

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XXX_er
+1 Shmarv

Exactly ^^ the SC Bullit and Heckler both  with the Shimano motor  were down to 7 or 8 K in Can bucks this spring I believe until they were completley sold out

which hurt a little  cuz I paid 11500  for a Bullit 3 yrs ago but I did get to rack up almost 5000kms

so will SC  just stop selling the VPP with shimano motor  ??

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XXX_er
+1 ohio

" the company wanted to use a different motor; "I've ridden every system on the market, including plenty of systems that, as of this recording aren't released yet, and we found that the new Bosch system, which this bike has, was the best fit for this bike." The problem was the new Bosch system isn't compatible with VPP because the system's dual links couldn't be mounted low enough. It turns out the new Santa Cruz, under PON leadership, isn't dogmatic. As Jack put it, "we just make the best bike we can." One of the goals was to achieve lower anti-squat values as the company has strived to do with their human powered bikes. "

the large chonkie elephant in the room is that  Santa cruz  CHOSE to go with the Bosch motor over the Shimano motor which bascily meant redesigning the whole bike even tho they had  2 working successful big e-bikes the question is why  ? 

If you go on the shimano e-motor users  web site every Shimano motor ever made has broken down so did SC want to ditch shimano cuz they break down or for corporate reasons or they were just a lot better OR ? 

Obviously from the last e-bike artical NSMB made us read Norco has also ditched Shimano

If the next bike I buy had a bosch motor I would ride it so there is no bosch hate here,  altho you don't wana hear about my new bosch dishwasher

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deleted_user_1211
0

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kos
0

Huh. I didn’t choose my Bosch dishwasher, but it’s 24 years old and going strong…..

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crgcrmny
+1 Cam McRae

+1 for the Canfield’s 🙂

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kos
+1 Cam McRae

"The biggest difference is the now-infamous rattle, mainly noticeable coasting downhill on rough trails, has been banished.”

Yes, oh YES!!!

Great early review, looking forward to more. I’ve never been a big SC fan, but the LBS in my new backyard is The Bomb, and carries SC, and I’ve always chosen shop first, brand second, so, who knows?!

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DogVet
+1 Kyle Dixon

Well I guess E bike updates are fine, given that Santa Cruz don’t supply the Andrew Major’s highly recommended Chameleon hardtail into the UK. 

Make of that what you will ?!!

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hbelly13
0

Santa Cruz- "The problem was the new Bosch system isn't compatible with VPP because the system's dual links couldn't be mounted low enough." 

Behold the Special Cruz! Embrace homogeneity! 

Crestline-"hold my beer."

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LoamtoHome
0

It was likely done because it’s cheaper and easier to manufacture, while still achieving the desired kinematics. Additionally, it doesn't require as tight tolerances, making the production process more forgiving.

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cam@nsmb.com
+2 Kos DancingWithMyself

Unless they are lying to me (and us) but I have no reason to believe that is the case. Santa Cruz has been one of the brands that has been most transparent about design process and development over the years. 

Why do you think four bar requires different tolerances than VPP? I don’t see why that would be the case but I’ll see if I can find out.

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LoamtoHome
0

With VPP suspension, the links are closer together, which means everything has to be more precise. If anything's off, it can really mess with how the bike handles and feels. In a 4-bar linkage, the links are spaced out more, so you can get away with a bit of wiggle room without it causing major issues. But with VPP, even tiny misalignments can make a big difference, so tighter tolerances are key to keeping it performing well.

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davetolnai
+3 Perry Schebel Cr4w DancingWithMyself

If nothing else, this is a really interesting thought experiment!

VPP and other dual rotating links are all more susceptible to dramatic changes with a pivot moved a few mm, compared to a horst.  But would that translate to less ability deal with a misalignment or tolerance issue?  I would think for sure, in certain cases it would.  If a bore was a mm off on the top rocker link (which hopefully would be way, way outside of their tolerance range!)...ya, that probably puts the rear end further away from where you want it with a VPP Bike than on a horst.  But then, if a bore is a half a degree off, I don't know if that would necessarily be worse on the VPP bike than on the horst?

That said, I doubt that Santa Cruz has a different set of tolerances for this bike than a VPP bike.  I would assume it's designed with the same standards and coming out of the same factory.  Putting it another way, I can't see them letting more parts through because it's for the Vala than for a Nomad.  And to put it even another way, I don't think the cost of a Santa Cruz is down to their tolerances.  Most of the cost of a Santa Cruz is down to that being what people are willing to pay for it.

At the heart of this, I think there's some really interesting conversations to be had on where costs come from on a bicycle frame, and if suspension design has any tangible impact on that.  The chances of getting anybody to freely talk about this with any numbers to back it up are pretty low, though.

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mikeferrentino
+2 dhr999 DancingWithMyself

Way back when I worked at SC, I recall someone secondhand relaying a conversation with one of the Taiwanese frame vendors. It went something along the lines of "You need to find a new factory because we can build 4 of Brand Y for every one of your frames, and 6 of Brand Z." Mostly referring to the much more critical alignment procedures surrounding the pivots. So, back then, 15 years or so ago, the fussiness of fabrication was absolutely part of the cost picture.

I would imagine VPP is way harder to build than a single pivot or walking beam faux bar, but it's gotta be on par with a dw-link or a Switch Infinity in terms of complexity and alignment. A Horst-link setup will have about the same number of bearings, but there might be some slightly greater degree of pivot alignment forgiveness due to the swingarm being able to "absorb" a few thousandths more slop than a rigid short lower link.

davetolnai
+2 Cam McRae DancingWithMyself

I don't think Crestline making a VPP bike compatible with the Bosch motor contradicts anything Santa Cruz says.  If you look at the new Bronson or Hightower and compare it to the Crestline, it looks to me that Santa Cruz place their pivot both a lot further forward and lower.  On the Bronson, the lower link pivot looks like it is in line with the front of the BB shell and around the height of the ISCG mount.  The Crestline looks like it pivots at a point behind the centerline of the bb, and a good chunk higher than Santa Cruz.  So they have more room to play with for motor clearance with their design.

Unfortunately, I can't find the anti-squat graph for the Crestline to compare.  But I think the kinematics of the Crestline are going to look different than the latest VPP's from Santa Cruz.

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XXX_er
+1 DancingWithMyself

are we mixing up the term  design parameters  with tolerances ?

I think of tolerances as  clearances between parts while design perameters are that you can't just put a pivot anywhere and expect the bike to work

I think SC costs more cuz they can do it better than anybody else

I have only owed one SC but it is the best bike  I have ever owned and i have heard others say the same

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karakoram
0

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XXX_er
0

I really like VPP or at least it looked like i should really like it so I would really have to try the Vala 

The artical sez all bikes under 50lbs, SC is claiming 49.49 lbs , 3 yrs ago they claimed 49.75 lbs on the Bullit so  I picked it up and got on a bathroom scale,  even without an engineering degree it was 52+ 

SO doesn't anyone own a bathroom scale or have the ability to read one ??

price at 7300- 12800 not bad really but its all academic if the bike is too chonky or goes against your sensiblities of a pure and perfect lifestyle  ... but not enough to just not read about e-bikes 

I remember when people were on about whether indexed shifting would be a thing

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cam@nsmb.com
+1 XXX_er

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JSW07
0 Peter Leeds lev3000

I think e-bike reviews should be different than analog bikes as it seems a little silly to me to have a “climbing” section on how an e-bike rides. I get it, and I agree that its just an analog bike with a motor therefore the climbing characteristics are different from bike to bike, but, honestly, it’s a bike with a motor…it’s going to climb well (compared to an analog bike anyways)! The bike is going to do what it’s meant to do which is get you to the top faster than an analog bike therefore allowing you to get 1 or 2 extra laps in…yup…that’s what it does ;)

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deleted_user_1211
0

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JSW07
0

I have ridden several eMTB’s and you are right that handling varies a little bit, handling comes down to geo and suspension kinematics. For me, all of that was eclipsed by the specific motor that was in the bike and there are only a handful of options. So one bike wallow more than the other and the next bike might have more anti squat. On an analog bike this speaks to what the bike is capable of and what it’s meant for. For example, I’m not going to use the Norco Range (analog version) for general trail riding as it’s going to be exhausting on the climbs and boring on way down. Now with eMTB that aspect gets blurred as there’s a motor helping you climb and that bobbing that was robbing your energy on the analog bike is no longer as much an issue as you have a motor helping you up the climbs on the decent you have more weight under you and if you leave the motor on you have more speed on the flat sections b/c when pedaling you have assistance.

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XXX_er
0

so i duno if the writers monitor a 7 month old thread but the EP8 in my Bullit has shit the bed and so i picked up a new VALA 70 so the cheapest spec is still 9600ish. 1st impression the bosch motor is nice, nice power, its quiet, losing 5 lbs along with more upright angles makes for a very spritely ride,  4 bar vs VPP is not that far apart, still playing with it but  I'm happy enough

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cam@nsmb.com
+1 XXX_er

Nice. (we do keep an eye on things)

Glad you like your new bike.

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deleted_user_1211
-1 DancingWithMyself

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cam@nsmb.com
0

Prices are listed in the spec sheet above. I haven’t done a comparison with other current or previous bikes but this spec lists for 11,500 USD. 

Definitely not cheap. 

The base model is 7300 and the top model is 12,800. 

I haven’t seen CAD other prices yet.

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deleted_user_1211
0 Brian Moreaux dhr999

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cam@nsmb.com
+2 XXX_er DancingWithMyself

I would say there is a premium for Santa Cruz bikes over some brands but not say, Trek, Specialized or Yeti, to name just three. Santa Cruz adds a lot of value with lifetime free bearing replacement, excellent warranty reputation, manufacturing quality and attention to detail, particularly in terms of hardware and care to make a bike easily serviceable by a rider with some skills. Not to mention the fact that their bikes perform very well. For some riders these elements have a lot of value. 

Santa Cruz house brand wheels and handlebars - and even tubeless valves - are also excellent and I wouldn’t say that about all of the bigger brands. 

If you start comparing to Canyon and others with a consumer direct model, which works well for some people, the equation is different.

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deleted_user_1211
-1 XXX_er dhr999 DancingWithMyself

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cam@nsmb.com
+2 XXX_er DancingWithMyself

Interesting  

I’m curious why you’d think it’s less expensive to make a Horst link bike than a VPP bike? If anything starting from scratch with a different platform sounds more expensive to me in terms of iterations, planning, design and engineering time and tooling. 

Certainly some customers will want a new Santa Cruz bike to look like previous Santa Cruz bikes but others will be more interested in how the bike rides.

deleted_user_1211
0 XXX_er dhr999

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cam@nsmb.com
+1 DancingWithMyself

AFAIK everything is proprietary on the new bike. And nothing could be reused from previous designs. The link, for example, was designed from scratch, which is why it visually echoes a VPP link.

I don’t see anything that would have been less expensive about this design than a VPP design from the limited knowledge I’ve acquired doing this job. In fact I would bet the opposite is true.

One thing that was mentioned to me (or maybe in the podcast) is that there has been cooperation between designers and engineers at other PON owned brands who were more familiar with designing and manufacturing four bar bikes to determine what doesn’t work. Santa Cruz also considered other potential designs that would have been compatible with the Bosch motor but the bottom line (as it was communited to me) was that they couldn’t get the progression, anti-squat and rise numbers where they wanted them with VPP. 

Another bonus of this design is an increase of 110mm of post insertion, allowing riders to choose a frame size based on reach without having to worry about whether they can get their saddle low enough or use a post with a longer drop.

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Morox
+2 Cam McRae DancingWithMyself

Is your question "is this bike more expensive than comparable bikes from other brands?" ???

Look it up dude!

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deleted_user_1211
0

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XXX_er
+1 Cam McRae

I missed that the prices on that site were in USD

https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-CA/bikes/vala

but i found a canadian site which sez 9500-16700

edit: I wonder if the non-VPP  rear end is on all SC's bikes ? Locally in this one LBS town SC is a HUGE brand definatley more popular than anything else. Giant is 2nd and far behind also sold by the same LBS

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