SRAM t-type transmission d merdano 3
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20 Months Riding SRAM T-Type

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Now that the sly brilliance of SRAM's patient bait-and-switch that was the Universal Derailleur Hanger (UDH), which seemed like pure benevolence on SRAM's part, has begun to fade from memory, it's time to have a look at how the company's revolutionary new derailleur system has performed since it was launched.

There is some good news, some less than stellar revelations, and lots of nuance in between. In some ways you can call T-type a home run and in other ways it hasn't been exactly everyone hoped. Overall though, it would be tough to argue it hasn't been well received so let's start with a look at some of the initially touted benefits that have turned out to match the sales pitch.

SRAM transmission 20 months

This Universal Derailleur Hanger, an aftermarket example from Burgtec, mounts on the rear axle rather than the frame, like a T-type derailleur. While these are a step up for everyone who uses a rear derailleur, that wasn't SRAM's motivation for getting frame builders on board with this system. In truth, they wanted every frame to be able to to accept T-type.

T-type Wins

The killer app of T-type isn't the electronic actuation or the flat top chain or the timed ramps on the cassette or the way the servo moves it inward away from harm when it senses an impact. What sets it apart is the way it attaches to your bicycle. Like the UDH, rather than attaching to your bicycle frame, the bulk of the load of a T-type changer is supported by the axle of your rear wheel. Obviously this is vastly sturdier than small piece of steel or aluminum hanging off your carbon or metal frame by a couple of bolts but, even more importantly, it's vastly more likely to be perfectly aligned.

Transmission derailleurs are not impervious to damage, as I have found out in two different ways I will discuss below, but the mount is remarkably robust. Photos of dorks like me standing on the mounting support of a T-type derailleur became laughably ubiquitous when the system was launched but try jumping on any conventionally mounted derailleur. Unless you are an adolescent elf, your hanger will be destroyed and likely your derailleur as well.

SRAM t-type transmission_d_merdano_2.header

My finest hour as a "journalist." Photo - Deniz Merdano

Engineering Motivation

While strength is important here, it's the consistent alignment, because of the stout mount, that sets this system apart from every previous derailleur, and this was apparently the motivation that set SRAM engineers down this path. They knew that, even if they could build the best parallelograms and cages in the world, if the hanger or cage was bent or the system wasn't set up properly, it wouldn't shift worth shit. I was told that drove the big-brained tinkerers in Schweinfurt bonkers. The products they created often performed poorly (based on market research) because of factors that were out of their control. They set out to take back that control, and that's how we got here.

AXS T-type cage replacement 13

Cage replacement is simple and quick. If you don't replace the damper mechanism. In that case it's much quicker but five times the price.

What We Can (mostly) Agree On

Mounting and Alignment

There is broad consensus that the mounting system of T-type derailleurs is superior to what came before. Banishing the derailleur hanger forever should make mechanics and riders the world over rejoice, particularly if this technology could be had for a price that didn't involve donating a kidney.

T-type Derailleur Set up and install 16

A T-type derailleur hangs off the rear axle on either side of the rear axle seat for a very secure mount.

Load

There is more to it than just alignment though. The robust mount and the sturdy derailleur, along with strategically placed shift ramps, allow the derailleur to shift in situations that would mangle previous derailleurs. You can fly down a hill, unaware of the abrupt and steep climb ahead, and mash your chain up your cassette violently, without fear of disaster.

In fact, T-type derailleurs shift better under load than they do in the most perfect conditions. If you put a bike with Transmission up in the stand and run through the cogs, you'll be disappointed because it's likely to hang up a little. When you are on the trail and there is mud and grit on your drivetrain and your chain is snapping up and down like an elastic band because of the rocks and roots you are hitting, it's likely to shift brilliantly. It's a rare case when real world performance exceeds what can be achieved in the lab (or in the bike shop).

T-type Derailleur Set up and install 12

The GX AXS derailleur is the least expensive of the line at 390 USD, and it has better battery placement than the XX1 and XO1. It's a little heavier but shifting remains solid.

Setup

The other upside to SRAM is that setup is less witchcraft and more precise engineering. It's a different procedure, and it involves several steps, just like a conventional derailleur, but there is less guesswork and nuance. The chain length is calculated for you, there are no limit or b-tension screws to adjust and it's as simple as following some instructions. If it doesn't work as advertised, you likely forgot a step, whereas with a traditional derailleur it could be that the changer is bent, the cable tension is off, the hanger is bent, the chain is the wrong length, or several other subtle and tricky-to-diagnose factors. It may seem more difficult for anyone who has only installed cable-actuated traditional mechs, but once you get it, it's foolproof.

axs_t-type_launch_4.width-1920

You can take a T-type derailleur apart in a couple of minutes without any special tools. Many of the replacement parts are available for reasonable prices. An entire cage with jockey wheels (but no damper) is 42 CAD or about 30 USD.

Wear Life

The final performance factor, that isn't yet incontrovertibly proven, is longevity. Even before this, SRAM's Eagle drivetrains had incredible wear life without any performance loss. When well treated, it's remarkable how long Eagle cassettes and chains last. Based on what I've heard from riders and bike shops, it seems like Transmission durability is even better, perhaps because of the reliable alignment.

Right to Repair

T-type derailleurs were built to have replaceable parts. You can replace the cage, with or without the damper/clutch, and the outward wear parts easily and with no special tools. Once the clutch is gone on a non-T-type Eagle derailleur, it's only good for parts.

T-type Derailleur Set up and install 11

The only special tool required install a T-type drivetrain is a torque wrench capable of measuring up to 35Nm. This digital model from Topeak does the trick for me but, at 270 USD it's not cheap. Unlike many others, it measures torque clockwise and counterclockwise. There are certainly other less expensive solutions.

Cables

A related benefit in the age of internal cable routing, particularly those that go through headsets or beneath and around eMTB motors and batteries, is not having a cable. Stringing housing, even with the right tools, can take hours. And even then, if there aren't internal guides you should be taking preventive action so your cables and lines don't sound like a marimba band. This might be using some kind of insulation on the cables or wrapping zip ties around as suspension to keep the housing from banging on other housing or hose or the inside of your bicycle frame. Either way it's a pain in the ass. Installing T-type is so easy that for a time I was sharing a derailleur between two bikes while I was repairing one of them.

I should probably make a list.

2022 sight vlt cable routing5.jpeg

Routing the rear derailleur cable housing through my Norco Sight VLT involved stuffing my arm up inside the downtube. Doing the same on my We Are One Arrival was enough of a job to have me write an entire article about it.

T-type Benefits

  1. Likely to be aligned well because it mounts on the rear wheel's axle.
  2. This produces consistent shifting, mostly independent of the rider's maintenance or repair skills.
  3. T-type not only shifts well under load, it shifts better under load, in situations that could destroy conventional derailleurs.
  4. The mount has been tested to withstand some ridiculous figure like 500 lb/210 kb of force before damage occurs.
  5. The installation process is straightforward and much less finicky than a cable actuated install.
  6. Drivetrain wear life seems to be exceeding already high expectations.
  7. Repairability; T-type derailleurs have several easily replaceable parts and most of them are inexpensive to replace.
  8. Forget about the hassles of internal routing.
AXS T-type cage replacement 13

Replacing the cage of an AXS derailleur is an easy job.

Shifting Speed*

The first area where T-type disappointed many riders is shifting speed. Initially I said here that SRAM had stated T-type shifted faster than other derailleurs. My memory was incorrect here and what they said was that, because your chain spends more time in contact with cogs, you can ride faster with T-type . T-type can be a little slower making shifts than other derailleurs, electronic or otherwise. The system often seems to wait until the ramps arrive to allow the chain to move up or down the cassette. This makes for smoother shifting in many cases but, it's not fast, at least compared to conventional or cable actuated Eagle and certainly compared to Shimano's higher end drivetrains. For me this slight lag is a non-issue but I know riders who miss more immediate shifts.

*This paragraph has been edited with more accurately information about SRAM's initial claims about T-type shifting speed.

goodyear wrangler jens klett

Mounting T-type to my We Are One Arrival required an updated UDH swingarm. The bonus was this also allowed me to mullet the bike. Photo - Jens Klett

Throwing Down Your Anchor

Have you ever had a festering injury somewhere on your body that seems to attract demons? You seem to thrust the injury site into rusty nails and bowling balls like it pays money?

For the several months it was like that with the GX T-type rear derailleur on the Norco Range VLT tester I've been riding. I went from rarely, if ever, bashing my rear mech, to sometimes smashing it multiple times on the same ride. There is no getting around the fact that it's bigger and it hangs a little lower and further outboard than conventional derailleurs, and that this exposes T-type's Achilles heel; the cage.

SRAM makes tough derailleurs, and the T-type is the toughest of them all, but there is only so much you can do to beef up a derailleur cage without making it a boat anchor. Another issue is that, because the mount is so rigid and the upper mechanism is so robust, it doesn't flex like other derailleurs. If you smash a conventional derailleur, the hanger, the parallelogram, and the frame, all flex a little, spreading out the impact. With T-type, the cage takes almost the entire hit.

There came a point, after months of abuse, when I wasn't able to straighten the cage enough to have the derailleur shift accurately and it needed to be replaced. The good news is, the cage is easy to replace, and relatively inexpensive. The bad news is that, if this happens during a ride, possibly hours from civilization, you might be shit-out-of-luck.

Since the cage replacement, I have been getting better at realizing that my previous clearance awareness was inadequate and smashing the derailleur less, but contact hasn't yet been eradicated.

AXS T-type cage replacement 5

This poor derailleur has been smashed many times. After an easy and inexpensive cage replacement, it's working like new again.

Removal Woes*

Another less common, but not unheard of issue, is stripping your mounting bolt upon removal. I was swapping my original T-type tester from a test bike to my own bike, to continue testing it, and the mounting bolt just kept turning. It immediately became obvious that I'd stripped the bolt. I used every trick I knew to try and remove it and failed repeatedly. I eventually gave up and took it to SRAM and it appears they decided to cut the derailleur to remove it from the frame. It is possible to remove a derailleur that has a stripped mounting bolt but, perhaps because it's more time consuming, SRAM techs decided to cut it instead. Normally you'd just need to replace your mounting bolt.

Apparently this issue can occur if you remove the mounting bolt while the rear axle is still in place. This was something I missed in the manual.

*Originally I stated that this can occur if you remove your derailleur without the rear axle installed but actually the opposite is true. I also said the derailleur was stripped but I meant to say the mounting bolt, which is an easily replaced part.

SRAM XX AXS group

The top of the line XX T-type group, with cranks, but no powermeter, costs about 2050 USD.

Cost

I remember thinking that a cable-actuated XX1 rear derailleur was costly. At a modest 323 USD it now seems quaintly accessible. Then AXS came along, and the current XX1 AXS derailleur price is up to 753 USD. That felt like the ceiling (and as I recall, it was pricier before T came along) but there was more to come. Obviously there are less expensive options, both XO and GX, but the top of the line provides useful figures for comparison.

But wait, it seems like there has been some sort of seismic shift. The current price of an XX T-type derailleur is 650 USD. Obviously that isn't cheap, but considering it's cheaper than the "conventional" AXS XX1 mech, it seems comparatively palatable. Here in Canada however, the price of top of the line T-type pushes close to a grand at 947 CAD. That compares to a Shimano XTR 9100 derailleur at 365 CAD, which is probably the smoothest shifting MTB derailleur ever made. Unfortunately, you don't get to charge a cable-actuated XTR derailleur, which means you could ride for days in the wilderness without even thinking about it...

SRAM GX AXS group

The base model GX T-type group, with cranks, but no powermeter, costs about 1100 USD and it does virtually everything the top model does.

If you are buying an aftermarket system, a GX group will cost you about 1100 USD, including cranks. SRAM doesn't recommend this, but you can get by without replacing cranks which will save you a packet. SRAM also tells us that longevity and performance will be reduced if you don't use a T-type specific chainring but my experiments with regular narrow wide chainrings have been successful thus far. The chain and cassette are integral to the system, and obviously the shifter.

The only functional difference between GX, XO and XX is the lower "Magic Pulley" which has teeth that can rotate independently of the spokes of your pulley. This means that if a stick gets jammed in the pulley spokes, your chain can continue to move, which may save your cage and your ride. I haven't had this occur thus far on any system.

2024 kona process 29 CR DL 4

The Kona Process 153 I have been testing is a great bike with really good value. It has a carbon frame, a GX AXS drivetrain, top of the line suspension. All for 7700 CAD or 5500 USD. Unfortunately it also has SRAM G2 brakes, which are decent, but not great. That's not a trade I would choose.

T-type as Original Equipment

Where I particularly object to the added cost of T-type is when it compromises the build of a complete bike. The Kona Process 153 I've been testing has a great build at an excellent price, and it comes with a GX T-type drivetrain. That doesn't seem like a bad idea until you notice that it also comes with SRAM G2 brakes. When I first rode these, in less demanding conditions in the Sun Peaks Bike park in high summer, they performed well. When I brought them to the North Shore, with more sustained steep sections, less grooming and fewer opportunities to get off the levers, their weaknesses began to reveal themselves. (more on that in my full review). The point is that, for the money saved with a lower bling drivetrain, Kona could have installed any brakes they wanted. For me, solving the performance equation between good brakes and cable drivetrain or mediocre brakes and T-type, takes less than a heartbeat.

Obviously Kona had to make this calculation based on sales, and bling derailleurs have always been consumer magnets. Anyone who has sold bikes for a living knows that your average consumer isn't as educated as, for example, the NSMB audience, and is attracted to shiny things. Riders who are looking for a build that emphasizes the performance of suspension, brakes and wheels (what Andrew Major would call a min max build) will sometimes be disappointed when drivetrains take up too much of the cost that ends up producing the retail price of a bike.

SRAM AXS battery

On top of the AXS battery which attaches to a T-type or regular AXS derailleur, shown here with a second battery in the provided charger, there is a CR2032 coin cell battery that powers an AXS shifter/Pod shifter to consider before each ride.

Batteries

I sometimes imagine having a bike with coil suspension front and rear and old fashioned cables. The only thing to check before a ride would be tire pressure. Transmission isn't bad, considering the CR2032 coin cell in the shifter lasts about a year, and the AXS battery in the derailleur will survive up to 75 hours of riding time (from reports I've heard) but they still eventually will run out of juice.*

*If you are driving to a ride, remove your AXS batteries because the vibrations of the vehicle will keep the derailleur awake and drain your batteries prematurely.

It's easy to check both before a ride by pressing the AXS button; if you get green you are GTG, if you get red you'd be wise to swap it out but you still have some shifting time left. Despite this, I have drained a battery myself and I've been on rides when others have had components die as well. There is often a solution, like carrying spares, or shifting your rear mech with the AXS button if your shifter battery dies, but it adds a concern to your ride that isn't necessary. Wouldn't it be nice if SRAM made cable-actuated T-type? Imagine a car that you didn't have to fill up or charge? Or a phone that didn't need to be plugged in? That's what I call innovation.

2024 kona process 29 CR DL 5

Whether T-type is a luxury item or a necessity is a matter of means and perspective. You can absolutely call yourself a mountain biker without it.

T-type Misses

  1. Shifting is a little slow.
  2. Cage is exposed and takes the brunt of impacts.
  3. Mounting bolt interface can strip.
  4. This shit is expensive.
  5. Batteries - remembering to charge and checking levels is a PITA that adds a little friction to the ride experience.
Deniz_merdano_cam_santa_cruz_vala_38.width-1920

The Santa Cruz Vala I have been testing came with XO T-type, the middle sibling of the line. Like the others, it just works. Photo - Deniz Merdano

Transmission on the Trail

For better or worse, while I'm riding a T-type system, I tend to forget it's there. Shifting is largely intuitive, requiring less brain power. Like many of you, I have spent decades honing the craft of shifting so that I can sneak in shifts in unlikely situations and figure out how to make a damaged changer keep going in the wild, both with trail-side bends and adjustments, tweaking the cable tension from the saddle, and caressing it when it comes time to shift. Some of you are attached to those skills and how they connect you to your bike, and I get it.

When it comes to driving a car I vastly prefer driving a manual transmission and feeling like I am part of the connection between the engine and the wheels. On my bike, my concerns are more about getting myself down challenging trails smoothly and as quickly as I'm able without mishap. That's where most of the juice is for me. There was a time when technical climbing (for example) carried more importance and, if that was still me, I may have remained a luddite. Instead I am relieved to put more of my energy into riding features for the first time, hitting lines more smoothly, and attempting to ride descents in nasty conditions like it was a perfect spring day with peanut butter dirt.

Deniz merdanocam mcrae norco range vlt 2025 54

The ability to shift under power pairs very well with eMTBs, where there is extra juice going from the cranks to the rear wheel. Photo - Deniz Merdano

I switch bikes regularly and, between testers and personal bikes, I currently have Shimano and SRAM cable actuated derailleurs and regular AXS and T-type. I can't say that I am disappointed to be on a cable actuated bike, and I savour the simplicity and absence of batteries. I haven't lost those shifting skills and surprisingly, cables continue to seem second nature, but there is no denying that they require a little more thought, attention and preparation on the trail. Putting that mental energy elsewhere has value for me, but not for everyone.

I have also used all three levels of T-type and, while I wish this wasn't the case, XX is the smoothest shifting of the lot. The pricier chain, cassette and derailleur each work a little better than the lower two models producing a difference you can feel after experience with the other two. At the same time, GX and XO shift great and, unless you are incredibly fussy about your shifting or you are trying to eke out the very best performance for some competitive reason, and to save weight, I would steer you toward GX and save you a packet of cash.

In The End

I could keep riding for the rest of my life without any electronics on my bike at all and be perfectly happy. I don't love dealing with cable routing, bent hangers and busted derailleurs but they are generally rare occurrences for me.

I appreciate all of the undeniable benefits of T-type, and I am quite sure I have a better riding experience when it's handling my shifting, but it's not an essential. I'll be thrilled if I never have to string a derailleur cable through an eMTB again but if and when I have to, I'll deal with it.

I enjoy riding nice bikes with state of the art components but, if the apocalypse arrives and I'm left with a 20 year old hardtail, I'll keep riding and loving mountain bikes and mountain biking.

cam@nsmb.com
Cam McRae

Height - 6'/183cm (mostly legs)

Weight - 165lbs/75kg

Inseam - 37"/94cm. (turns out I hadn't measured correctly previously)

Ape Index - 0.986

Age - 58

Trail I've been stoked on lately - Sam's Dad's Trail

Bar Width - 760mm

Preferred Reach - 485-500mm

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Comments

andy-eunson
+16 Lynx . bishopsmike Vincent Edwards Kyle Dixon ZigaK FlipSide Duck GravityAddict BarryW James Hayes Cam McRae OneShavedLeg Matt Cusanelli Pete Roggeman geno ohio

I just want say that this discussion has been awesome. Reading about other riders ideas and preferences is great. The respect we have for each other is also incredible in this day and age of anonymous social media fuckwitery. Thank you all.

Reply

cam@nsmb.com
+3 Andy Eunson geno ohio

Well said. Thanks Andy!

I am consistently amazed at how intelligent, informed and respectful our commenters are!

Thanks to each of you for adding so much to what we do!

Reply

AJ_Barlas
+11 Cam McRae Skooks Morgan Heater Flatted-again Wapti Lynx . HughJass paradox@Goet Pete Roggeman BarryW jhtopilko

“it’s not fast, at least compared to conventional or cable actuated AXS.” Is there a cable-actuated AXS option?

“coil suspension front and rear and old fashioned cables,” music to my ears! :D

Reply

Kenny
+12 Lynx . ackshunW BarryW Todd Hellinga ZigaK Andy Eunson jhtopilko Fat_Tony_NJ Bearlover geno utopic ohio

Yes. My frame has external routing, I keep a spare hanger ziptied to my seat rails, and my XT derailleur was $130 and shift under load or not under load just great. 

I have exactly zero of these self inflicted problems created just to justify complexity, forced obsolescence, and lighting money on fire.

Reply

Brumos73
+10 Cam McRae HMBA106 Mammal Velocipedestrian paradox@Goet Todd Hellinga Moritz Haager Fat_Tony_NJ geno utopic

The real kicker is not in how well this new T-Type performs and wether it's 'better' than other drivetrains but rather the replacement cost of wearable components when the time comes to replace. How much does the SRAM flat top chain cost? What about a cassette? A ridiculous sum of money!

In my opinion, there is a much better alternative available that costs significantly less and works flawlessly. It's called Shimano (SLX/XT/XTR).

Reply

fartymarty
+8 HMBA106 Velocipedestrian Konda paradox@Goet BarryW Kristian Øvrum Fat_Tony_NJ utopic

This is exactly why I stick with my 10Zee setup (10 speed, Zee mech, XT shifter).  It's super cheap and relatively bombproof. 

I'm still holding my breath for a link glide CUES Zee.

Reply

Lynx
+2 BarryW utopic

As I said in my comment, WTF was wrong with 10spd, they could easily have widened the range like they have now done, had wider spacing between cogs for the debris you will inevitably collect riding off road and tuning is much easier/less finicky because there's lots more leeway.

10spd on all (couple of the older 26ers are still running 9spd) but 1 of my bikes, most with the old 11-36 cassette and an extender 42t cog on the top, 11t removed. My actual main bike still run FD with NW chainrings, still shifts fine, just a tad slower, loads of range, can keep better chainline and use more of the cassette/get more life, instead of like those with 1x 12spd setups who mainly use 3, maybe 4 cogs mainly and then have to toss the cassette because they're worn and the rest is fine.

Reply

kos
+7 Chad K Kenny Cam McRae Andy Eunson xtcphil DancingWithMyself geno

But the crazy thing is that Eagle 12-speed chains and cassettes last far longer than the old 10-speed stuff did.

Last thing I expected when Eagle first came out.

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kristian-vrum
+1 utopic

While that may be true, we still have to consider the cost of the cassettes and chains, and I'm not convinced that Eagle 12-speed is cheaper than a XT/Zee-based 10-speed drivetrain at any point in time.

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Lynx
+1 utopic

Yup, absolutely Kristian, I finally convinced my friend to switch from GX to Deore after 2 cassettes which each cost $240 USD, the full drivetrain, minus cranks, so derailleur, shifter, cassette, chain AND the DT Swiss MS freehub body ended up costing just $60 USD more than just the GX cassette. In the long run, he's paying around $80 USD for a cassette and $30 USD for a chain and once he keeps up on chain wear check and doesn't let it get past the safe point, I figure he should be able to do about 4 chains for that cassette at a grand cost of about $120USD over probably 2-3 years depending on how much riding he does. 

Also the Deore comes apart which makes cleaning easier IMHO and I prefer it, prefer the Microspline design and heck if he even wanted some are offering old school HG compatible 12spd cassettes.

Oh and almost forgot, he loves the shifting, says he doesn't have to worry about shifting under load and the ergonomics of the shift lever is much nicer.

HollyBoni
+4 Lynx . Andy Eunson Cam McRae Kristian Øvrum

I have 10,11,12spd setups on my bikes. The 1x10 with an 11-36, ZEE RD, XT shifter is still the best shifting drivetrain i've tried so far. The speed, smoothness, accuracy is so freaking good. I don't think i've ever felt/heard this setup hang up, mis-shift, or "think". It just works instantly every time I press the shifter. 

But personally I haven't noticed that the 11 and 12 speed setups would be more finnicky. I don't need to adjust them unless I bang up the derailleur or something like that.
X01 and XX1 chains do last forever, I use steel SRAM chainrings (that cost like 15 bucks) and NX cassettes that are full steel and also last for ages. They do shift worse than GX and Microspline Shimano stuff tho. 
Maybe I don't ride enough, but honestly durability hasn't been an issue for me on 11 and 12spd. I do use my bikes on a wider variety of terrain, so I tend to use the entire cassette.
I am thinking about trying XT Linkglide tho, but also thinking about dropping weight and getting an aluminium chainring + hunting down a slightly used X01 cassette for a good price for my hardtail...

Reply

Lynx
0 Kristian Øvrum James Hayes

Lucky for you Holly, must not live someplace with lots of tight rocks and/or ride with due diligence, because while I personally don't own or ride 12spd, I work on several people's bikes who do and I'm constantly having to fiddle with it, or at least used to when they were on SRAM and their GX pieces of crap RDs and exorbitant cassettes, have noticed since I got them to switch to Shimano it's not so much an issue now.

Reply

HollyBoni
0

I actually just smashed the crap out of my RD on a rock this summer, the hanger bent at like 45 degrees. 🙂 Not sure what I do right, but my drivetrains seem to keep on truckin. I'm definitely unlucky when it comes to random creaks on bikes and quality issues with components (especially frames). 
I have a few 12spd Shimano RDs (Deore and SLX) and a 12spd GX. Honestly I like the GX better. It seems a bit more sturdy, better made, less play in the pivots overall. I like the adjustable clutch on the Shimano stuff tho. 
I would like to try a wider range 10 or 11spd setup for sure. My GF has 11spd Deore M5100 on her bike, but i'm not a fan so far.

And yeah, I haven't even tried a 2x since clutch RDs and better FDs came along.

zigak
0

Did I read this correctly: your main bike has front derailleur with narrow wide chainrings (as in more than one) and it shifts fine, just a tad slower??? How? What type of crank-chainring interface do you use? It is common knowledge that you can't shift on narrow wide.

Edit: read all the comments, it turns out I did read this correctly

p.s.: I'm currently on a cues (linkglide) 2x11 setup, 22-36 front 11-45 rear and could try the nw rings, though I don't have any chain drops with regular non nw chainrings

Reply

Lynx
+1 ZigaK

@Zigak - Yeah, as you read, I have run NW chainrings as a 2x system with an FD and if you watch teh video, you'll see how it shifts - fine for me. But absolutely no need for NW rings with a 2x setup with FD and a clutch derailleur, for me at least, heck I'm even running a super old M750 XTR crankset (late 90s/early 2000 IIRC), still running the original 26 & 34 rings and no issues for the couple of years I've had it, although am starting to notice a few chain hangups on the 34t, so guessing it's soon time to replace it, but that's expensive.

Reply

neologisticzand
+5 Cam McRae Abies HughJass James Hayes DancingWithMyself

That said, I've gone through three shimano chains in the same amount of time as a transmission chain

Reply

GrundleJ
+2 Kenny BarryW

I share this opinion for the most part and I love Shimano HG+, but I would love a der hangar solution from Shimano that is compatible with the UDH mounting standard *and* cable actuated.  Hell, if Sram made a cable AXS I would be very interested and I haven't had a Sram derail in over 20 years across about a dozen bikes.

Reply

pete@nsmb.com
+1 DancingWithMyself

Both sram and Shimano charge a fortune for replacement cost of high end drivetrain consumables. However XTR and X0/XX chains especially are extremely durable - enough so that it may net out close to even. SRAM high end cassettes are also particularly durable. Not saying it makes up for the cost, simply that it's a mitigating factor.

Reply

GrundleJ
0

Do you find XTR HG+ chains more durable than any other Shimano HG+ chain? I get ~2k miles out of a CN-M6100 or M7100 chains and they are cheap at about $20 & 35/ea compared to $80 for an XTR CN-M9100.

Reply

Lynx
0

I'd be curious about this as well, because while I don't run it, I have several friends who do and after the first guy got his XT 12spd equipped bike and the chain rusted in no time at all, we decided to just get Deore and be done with it.

Reply

GrundleJ
0

Was is genuine Shimano?  I've only had any Deorelevel or higher Shimano chain rust at the pins and that's after putting it away wet without re-lubing.  That said, a little lube and a ride pretty much cleans it up like it never happened.

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Lynx
0

I'd guess geniune as came on a Yeti, but most likely as you say, lack of proper care/maintenance - just can't get the guys to understand the maintenance high end bikes need.

Guessing that our enviroment is slightly different to you, being that we live on a tiny little island, so basically salt air no matter where you are.

Timer
0

If it was on a complete bike, especially a Yeti, it might have been a Deore or even groupless lower end chain on that „XT“ drivetrain. Bike manufacturers are notorious for penny pinching wherever customers don’t look too closely.

Lynx
0

@ Timer, yeah, I know, those manufacturers do lots of sneaky shit like that and I'm pretty certain that I checked to make sure it was in fact the XT chain when it rusted so quickly, but now you have me questioning myself on that. I keep all my old chains, so I'll see if I can find it and check.

g-42
0

T type gxs chain just cost me US$50. That's after over 950 miles of hard use (220# rider on a full power eeb). Deore chain is about half that - I've never gotten anywhere close to 500 miles on one of those on my regular bike...

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Lynx
0

@ g-42, that's interesting. I'm no where near your weight, about 185-200lbs kitted to ride and my regular expected mileage from 9/10 spd XT or XTR level chains was always 800> and if I was good about it, 1k wasn't abnormal. Never used a lower end chain than that until I tried 11spd, just didn't make sense as could always find the 9 & 10 spd XT or XTR chains for <$35 USD.

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g-42
0

I should have specified that's 12sp Deore chains. I don't know if the higher end XT/XTR chains would last longer, but they're pricey as well. 9 speed Deore chains on my commuter eeb tend to be about 600 miles before they start stretching (I replace at .5 of stretch, rather than waiting for .75, in the hope that'll extend the life of the cassette and keep shifting smoother). So based on that, I'm not surprised you're getting 800+ out of 9/10 speed chains. I'm about to move my commuter eeb to Linkglide, curious how that works out.

T-Type seems like a solid system, and I'm sure the mechanical version will be a great product. The electronic/servo shifting - meh. It came with the bike I wanted, and I thought I would try it, have a good laugh, then get XT and sell the take-off. Well, it was nice enough that I didn't bother with all that, and I'm enjoying using it, but if I were to buy another bike and get a choice between Transmission and XT, I'd probably save a little money and weight and stick with XT and be just as happy. Keeping the battery charged is not a big deal, and I usually ride to my trails so the whole taking the battery off before driving places is a non-issue for me. 

But go figure that SRAM has this nice major product advance (solid connection, no more dodgy derailleur hangers) and they load it up with electronics to make it sexy and capture a bunch of high margin customers before bringing out the mechanical version.

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morgan-heater
+8 Cam McRae Brad Sedola Vincent Edwards Konda HughJass BarryW ZigaK jhtopilko

It'd be cool if you got a pinion bike and rode it for 2 years and reported back on your feelings.

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cam@nsmb.com
+1 Morgan Heater

Now we're talking low maintenance and bombproof! Apparently at least. I don't love the amount of loss to friction I've heard reported but the system makes great sense for an eMTB.

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morgan-heater
+2 Cam McRae AJ Barlas

A long term test of an archibald would give you an actual data point...

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vincentaedwards
+5 Cam McRae Velocipedestrian Lynx . Pete Roggeman ZigaK

I really want to see some ‘real world’ studies comparing friction of the Pinion Gearbox to average derailleur setups across all gears, accounting for use. (In fact, I’m trying to talk the engineering department at the University where I work into doing this study)

Most efficiency numbers for derailleurs assume optimal chain line, lube, and wear. 

On an admittedly short test ride of Pinion C.12 with electronic shifting I came away very impressed. There is a feel / sound that I relate as friction, but it’s quite subtle. Shifting was on par with XT with the benefit of being able to shift without pedaling.

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pete@nsmb.com
+2 ZigaK Vincent Edwards

If that study happens, let us know. Would be curious to see the results.

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BarryW
+7 Lynx . Kos Cam McRae bishopsmike Duck AJ Barlas Pete Roggeman

Having riden a Zerode with the 9 speed Pinion it just disappeared once I got riding. There is a different feel, but to me being able to blast through as many gears as you like while coasting or with the slightest let off was well worth it. I'm thinking my next bike will very likely be a gearbox bike. 

And Cam, I'm living my best life with: "I sometimes imagine having a bike with coil suspension front and rear and old fashioned cables. The only thing to check before a ride would be tire pressure."

Got that setup and it's awesome. In fact I just pulled my shock pump out of my normal gear bag because I don't need to lug it around for others to use! Give me a gearbox and it'll be barely any maintenance.

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AJ_Barlas
+1 Pete Roggeman

It’s a great way to live, hey BarryW! Now, how can we remove the need to check tire pressures?

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BarryW
0

Probably by using some battery powered TPMS but then we're adding one new thing to maintain . . . 

Shit! 

I guess I'll just keep checking tire pressure!

Lynx
0

Al, they already have it, first from Quark with the Tire Wiz, which let you monitor via a phone app and now there's the actual system which lives in the hub that will let you actually change tyre pressure during the ride via a storage space in the hub, think initially thought up for Fatbikes - pump it up to get to the trail on the road, then just lower for riding the trails then reinflation hard for the ride back home, all without needing a pump.

Duck
+3 BarryW Cam McRae Lynx .

While I only have experience with it on a downhill bike, I'm not sure I care for the loss.
I've had a Pinion with a high pivot for about 2 months now, and the pedalling feels no less efficient than my previous Demo. It's hard to compare as I now have a much bigger gear range - I'd trade that for smaller steps.
My impression after 1 day was that it's a no-brainer for DH, but wasn't too sold on a pedal bike with gearbox. A week later I was pretty well sold on getting a gearbox next time I'm buying an enduro bike.
I feel like anything I look up about gearboxes on the internets, there's a pile of people talking about some efficiency tests and next to no practical experience. There are losses riding a derailleur drivetrain that I only realized now that I have a bike that shifts instantly, pedalling or not. 
How many watts do you lose every time you shift and do that mid-shift pedal stroke? Since riding HG+ I thought I shift pretty much under full load most of the time, yet coming out of a technical section and having a gearbox already in the right gear, rather than having to find a spot to pedal so the shift can actually happen..it's actually almost comical how weird shifting can feel on a derailleur!
Also the situations when you wish you were in an easier gear, and simply don't have the torque to keep going? With a gearbox you just dump a bunch of gears and keep going, instead of struggling to get out of the hard gear.

Now I do jump between a belt driven gearbox DH and a XT driven enduro bike, and both systems feel fairly natural. I can't speak for the longevity of the box & belt under my use, but from performance perspective I'm only still learning how much better I can actually ride in some situations with a gearbox, while I see no advantage to the derailleur setup other than parts availability.

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Lynx
+2 BarryW Cam McRae

The big thing is price Duck, gearboxes are expensive, there's no arguing that, you can get a complete 12spd Deore drivetrain for less than $250 USD. I guess, that could just be a bigger first investment for less layout down the road if the service intervals are longer and the service isn't so expensive. It'd be cool to have some data on how long you can go on a gearbox setup over say 2 years and what expenses you encounter service wise vs riding a derailleured setup the same miles/time.

[edited to add] Regarding price, I guess that if you're someone considering one of these electronic systems, then the price deferential narrows quite a bit. Only thing I haven't like it the shifting used grip shift and although they now have electronic paddle/thumb shifting, I don't want electronics anywhere near my bike besides a HRM/GPS/Phone.

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Duck
+2 Lynx . BarryW

I'm with you on the electronics, but so far it looks like I need to charge about as often, as I needed to replace a cable or the whole derailleur, so I'm willing to put up with it. That said having an XT mechanical shifter with pinion would be the dream. 

Regarding price, you're right that the Deore is hard to beat. When buying a complete bike, the difference isn't as big. My Zerode frame+drivetrain came bit cheaper than the extremely popular latest V10, though I'm aware I'm talking pretty niche bikes (dh in general these days :().

I am definitely curious about the costs down the road, and definitely wanna have a spare belt on me. But if it saves me even 1 derailleur each season, I'll be happy to save money AND the time spent riding a half clapped derailleur that may or may not work well while putting off buying yet another!

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morgan-heater
+3 BarryW Brad Sedola Duck

My nicolai G16 GPI is a 2016 model. I got it in 2020, on it's original drive-train. Rode it until 2024 before I had to replace the drive ring. So $90 over 8 years. I'm not sure how much previous owners rode it, but i've been putting at least 1500 miles on it a year. Compared to multiple chains a year and a casette a year, not to mention broken derailleurs, it's significantly cheaper from a life cycle cost standpoint if you're not buying the absolute bottom of the barrel.

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andy-eunson
+5 Cam McRae bishopsmike Lynx . GrundleJ BarryW

That’s an excellent summary of experience Cam. To my way of thinking the added cost and complexity doesn’t justify what sounds like an incremental improvement. I note the mechanical XTR wins world championships and World Cup races. Certainly wireless electric shifting solves poor cable routing but so does external routing in many cases. 

My only experience with electronic shifting was road DI2 on my cross bike. I had mechanical Dura-Ace on my road bike at the same time and can’t say one shifted better than the other. 

I did find mechanical Eagle had excellent durability as does mechanical XT. Might give the edge to SRAM though. But compared to what I started on in the early 80s, holy Dyna. We have it so good today.

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Timer
+6 Andy Eunson Jotegir Abies Lynx . BarryW Kristian Øvrum

Funnily enough, I feel like road is the place where electronic shifting makes the most sense.

The front derailleur shift feel on STIs is just much nicer when they are electric and synchronised shifting is cool if you are into it.

And road derailleurs very rarely need to be replaced, so the high cost is somewhat less of an issue.

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hbelly13
+5 Jotegir BarryW Lynx . Kristian Øvrum Tjaard Breeuwer

The questions I ask regarding this product (or any for that matter) are will it improve my riding experience, beyond my investment in it? Here are a few from over the years and whether they were worth it. 

Disc brakes '99- yes

Thru-axles (Fork) '01 (rear hub) '12- yes

Dropper posts '05- yes

Carbon bars '09 and later- no

Electronic shifting (sampled/ridden Di2, AXS, AXS Transmission)- no

SuperBoost spacing '20- no

Pressfit bottom brackets- no

Randoms: 

Internal routing- no, but some companies (Santa Cruz) make it much easier to live with even if it seems completely unnecessary as exemplified by others (thank you Banshee). 

High engagement hubs- yes (mostly) early on back in the long time ago I did not know the difference nor did I ever think about it. I like now that I have had a few wheels with it, but I am still okay without it. 

When SRAM drops a cable version of Transmission then I will think about it. I charge my laptop, phone, headphones and lights and eBike* battery. I do not wish to charge my shifting too. Until then, my XO1and GX Eagle mechanical drivetrains have remained bulletproof and have given me zero reason to change them. 

*Accounts for <10% of my rides

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Lynx
+3 Timer Vincent Edwards Jerry Willows

Good analysis Raymond, but I'd beg to differ on "Super Boost" as the marketers called it, otherwise known as 150x12, which was around for eons and working fine. I have the option to run basically any rear spacing on my Phantom thanks to Banshee's modular drop out system and I have 135 QR, 142x12 and 150x12 and I love the 150x12 option, wish all my wheels had that setup, because the chainline is SO much better. 150/7x12 is where the industry should have gone, not 148x12 and they should have stuck with the 49/50mm chainline as well, no need for that stupid 55/56 BS that once again gives you the shit chainline that 135 did which made using multiple front rings necessary to avoid exceptionally bad chainline and drivetrain wear.

The image below is from my Phantom with the 150x12 spacing and a 49/50mm chainline XT M760 crank, PERFECT. Oodles of tyre clearance, yet still can get short enough stays.

150/7 x 12 what it should be.

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hbelly13
+2 Timer BarryW

@Lynx, Banshee rules. No argument there. I am referring to SuperBoost 157 not 150 or DH 157. The two latter options have both been around for awhile and work well. However, SB157 only arrived within the last half dozen years as incorporated by a small number of manufacturers (Pivot spearheaded it and even they have ceased using on some bikes). I first came across it in '20 and was bummed to find that there were zero simple hacks into it.  Enduro published this take on it about four months before I got that bike. I agree with those findings 100% in that there is no end user benefit. Boost 148 may not be perfect, but most of your parts will fit or can be easily modified to work with it.

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Lynx
+1 Duck

Hum, far as I know (and I did a hell of a lot of reading on it) the only difference between 150/157 regular/DH and Super Boost is the non drive side flange, which is positioned all the way as close as can be to the disc mount like you'd find on 135/14 or even 148 hubs, other than that same 12mm axle and disc rotor is in the same place.

Not familiar with Pivot and what they might have done, but imagining that maybe they're using an offset/asymmetric rear tri so you can get a dishless rear wheel using a standard, center drilled rim vs having to use an offset rim with that hub to the opposite side to 135/142/148.

I have a Nuke Proof 150 rear hub with almost that SB type flange spacing, it was the cheapest 150/157 hub option I could find when I was getting my Phantom and needed to build a new wheel to fit the 150 drop outs I had coming with it. As stated above, I ended up using an offset drilled rim to get an almost dishless wheel, with wider flanges, which should technically build a stronger wheel and/or the need to not use as heavy duty rim. 

My current 150/7 x 12 Hope Pro4 hub I have the flanges are spaced the same distance from center so you don't need an offset rim, but then the flanges aren't as far apart, so you loose that benefit and there's a load of space between the NDS flange and the disc mount - side benefit it's much easier to clean  :-)

I'm curious about the newer, DH specific 150/7 hubs from Hope that use a much shorter freehub to run 7 or so cogs, as it seems they also then spaced the NDS flange out further to get that stronger angular stance/build. Wondering if 7 cogs of say 10spd is the limit, or if you use a more modern cassette with say a 42 or 44 big cog that actually normally sits behind the freehub, if you could maybe fit 8, maybe even 9 cogs - I used to be able to fit 7 cogs on my Trials/SS Pro2 using an XT cassette and the spider machined down.

Edited to add - SB is NOT a new standard as Pivot tried to get everyone to believe, as I said and most who have been riding a while know 150 rears have been around a long, long time. There is absolutely no need to have to make the stays stupidly wide to accomplish the goal of shorter stays to fit 2.5" tyres, it's only when maybe used in a PLUS wheeled bike application that widening the stays close to the BB to keep shorter stays might need to be considered and you loose chainring size. We all know however that the super short CS trend didn't last very long as people realised just how unbalanced a bike you ended up with and so CS length went back to not stupid in the 430-450 range for 29ers and with a 450 rear, you can still fit a 29 x 2.8" tyre without issue or needing absurdly wide stays to cause foot rub - I wear a size 13/48 and I have absolutely no issues on either of my Banshee FS bikes with hitting my feet and I am quite duck footed as they used to say.

Super Boost comparo

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mhaager2
+4 Lynx . Cam McRae Duck Vincent Edwards

One of the most balanced reviews I have read. Well done Cam. I think choice is great. One of my concerns is that my impression (maybe / hopefully I am wrong) though is that more and more frames, especially at the higher end, are only compatible with electronic shifting, both in MTB and Road. As someone who buys heavily into the Andrew Major Min-Max philosophy, that trend disturbs me. I can technically afford to buy top of the line bikes, but I have a certain number cut off that I just can’t justify spending beyond. I find going with a good (think XT) mechanical drive train is one of the easiest ways to maximize value / keep costs down significantly while not having to scrimp on suspension and wheels. I recently got into bike packing and I am surprised at the number of athletes in that sport that rely on electronic shifting (Lael Wilcox, Lachlan Morton for example). Sure they are sponsored, but why would you would want to take on the extra weight and burden of carrying and charging extra batteries is beyond me. Also when Morton did his unofficial Tour Divide record his electronic RD stopped working and he had to ride the last (3 I think) days as a single speed. When I did my last trip I actually broke the UDH in a real accident. I was able to Jerry rig the RD with a zip tie for the next 140K until I got to a bike shop and was able to buy a new UDH. Big shout out to the UDH — certainly made finding a replacement so much easier. Anyways, I just hope that the advances in electronic shifting don’t come at the expense of lack of choice to stick with mechanical.

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HollyBoni
+1 Vincent Edwards

I follow Lael as well. I'm fairly sure i've heard her say in interviews and podcasts that she runs an electronic drivetrain on these ultra long distance rides, because her hands and thumbs get more beat up from shifting a mechanical rear derailleur/shifter.

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Lynx
0

@HollyBoni, I can absolutely see and understand that for her or anyone with small hands, some road levers have huge throw to the levers, so if you have small hands, it requires a lot of effort. I've had people having trouble shift their FD, when I can shift it absolutely fine and do it right there in front of them, then inevitably they come back still complaining saying something must be wrong and I again shift it effortlessly and have to tell them they aren't fully pushing the lever enough to finish the shift properly.

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HollyBoni
0

I don't think it's just about having small hands. I think it's simply because of all that time she spends on a bike. These ultra gals/guys ride literally all day, day after day. They probably do as much shifting in a week as we do in half a year.

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Fat_Tony_NJ
+4 Lynx . BarryW ZigaK Duck

I was a dyed in the wool Shimano guy, until I bought a bike that came with GX. Well, aftser a year plus on the bike, I can truly say that the shifting ergonomics, the shifting feel, and the strength of the clutch convinced me that I was right to be a Shimano guy. Different strokes for different folks, but people who enjoy SRAM shifters must have a differnt thumb stroke tghan I do.

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cam@nsmb.com
0

I assume you are talking about mechanical SRAM derailleurs and shifters Tony?

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Fat_Tony_NJ
0

Yes. Mechanical. I can't get my head around electronics on a bike just yet.

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Jotegir
+3 Andy Eunson Abies Velocipedestrian

The photo of you arm deep in that Norco is a dangerous one to let out there in the era of photoshop.

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cam@nsmb.com
+2 Jotegir BarryW

I think it was good experience if I ever pivot to birthing calves.

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craw
+16 Jotegir bishopsmike Cam McRae Mammal Andy Eunson Morgan Heater Cooper Quinn Velocipedestrian HughJass Pete Roggeman BarryW Duck JVP Kyle Dixon FlipSide Matt Cusanelli

#onlycams

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andy-eunson
+5 Sandy James Oates Cam McRae Jotegir Vincent Edwards BarryW

I’m imagining someone, who may or may not look like Cam heading into Emergency at Lions Gate Hospital with a bicycle stuck to his arm. And all the doctors and nurses  looking. He got a what stuck to his arm?

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cam@nsmb.com
+2 finbarr AJ Barlas

Can’t find it. I think you must have read that wrong! 😜

Also - a dirty trick to play on the guy who caught many of your typos! 😂

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AJ_Barlas
+2 Cam McRae BarryW

I was being honest. I thought it might be a typo, but I’m out of the loop enough that I half expected you to point out a cable-actuated AXS option!

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cam@nsmb.com
+3 James Heath Christian Strachan GrundleJ

LOL! That's pretty funny. Have you heard about steam powered rockets?

Some of us are holding out hope for cable actuated T-type however.

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craw
+1 Mammal

I thought that was coming, presumably to offer a lower-priced replacement option for those who maybe can't afford the replacement cost of a full Transmission derailleur in the event of a crash or whatever. Seems reasonable they would offer this because it would suck to have your riding season ended prematurely because the massive low-hanging $700 derailleur got destroyed and now you can't afford to replace it like you might have before when you'd just slap a cheap on one to tide you over.

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vincentaedwards
+1 Christian Strachan

https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/27215685/

So yes, there is a prototype mechanical T-Type out there. I’ve heard some initial reports that it’s a bit underwhelming and low end… hopefully there will be some improvements made before it reaches production.

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BarryW
+1 Lynx .

It seems like it wasn't designed to work well unless it uses the spaced shift ramps. Which using electronics is fine, but if you or I grab a shift at the wrong moment it won't play nice or they are giving up some of what makes the shifting so good on AXS. 

That's why the shift delay some people object to. 

For me using SLX I am completely happy. It shifts beautifully under loaf if I really ride like a dork, and even better if I don't, lol. For me the replacement cost is so low I cannot imagine a future where I would buy a bike with T-Type and not pull it off immediately to replace with SLX or maybe XT. And I've not once damaged a derailleur (so far!) and I enjoy the few moments of tuning, verifying torque on bolts, and overall mechanic time.

vincentaedwards
+6 Cam McRae Lynx . taprider BarryW Kyle Dixon Brad Sedola

I’m holding out for a new Shimano system that is high end mechanical with no hanger. In the meantime I’m happy on XT, but enjoyed this long-term review. 

I would add weight as well as intermittent/ random failures to the list of cons. I’ve heard of issues with the battery terminals, and run into more than one friend on the trail (in the past year) with a T-Type system that has decided not to shift for some reason (besides a dead battery)… 

In my riding group, I can count more AXS and T-Type failures (3-4) over cable drivetrain failures (1-2) in the past year but that’s not a huge sample group. And it doesn’t factor in the consistency of T-Type when it’s working well. 

)

Where is Andrew Major these days? I miss his min-maxing genius gracing these pages!

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Blownoutrides
+2 bishopsmike Lynx .

There are things about T-type that work better for riders and then there are things about T-type that work better for SRAM.

There is some overlap, but they arent 1:1.

I’ll take the robustness and simplicity of setup. It is physically a better design.

The electronic part is mostly just better for SRAM. It’s almost certainly cheaper for them to produce, and has built in options for post-sale tuning via software update, etc., but it shifts slow, adds unsprung weight (I think?), and adds battery charging to the owners plate.

The fact that we don’t see cable version ain’t because it wouldn’t be better for us, it’s because it wouldn’t be better for SRAM.

FYI I own an ebike and have zero compunction against batteries, but I do have a pet peeve about companies who control a market making their product easier to produce in ways that make it harder to use.

I’d go so far as to say that the lack of a thumb-powered T-Type derailleur is directly related to the fact that Shimano has not kept pace with SRAM in the (high end) MTB market.

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Znarf
+2 Kos Cam McRae

I have to say the ONLY complaint I have with mechanical EAGLE drivetrains (all components in X0 or XX1-spec, GX anything resulted in breakdowns and quicker wear) is the clutch wearing out / being non-adjustable. The derailleurs are quite durable otherwise, chains and cassettes last a looong time. Derailleur hangers and alignment is a non-issue on my two frames mostly. And hangers are cheap and a clever built in failsafe. 

I am a bit surprised, there isn´t even an aftermarket fix for the clutch. With the 12spd derailleurs being discounted right now, I bought two and shelved them, but I already have two which are perfect, apart from the clutch. I experimented with a 12spd Shimano XT RD, because of the adjustable clutch. And paired that to a X01 eagle shifter. Totally rideable, but the lever force for the biggest cogs is super stiff. Shifting is fine otherwise, even though pull ratio isn´t a 100%. 

I didn´t have a clamped Shimano shifter kicking around, just I-Spec ones, which didn't pair well with my Trickstuff brakes. 

I'd happily ride 12spd Eagle X01 for the rest of my days, apart from the clutch. I even thought about that boutique VIVO-derailleur. Maybe...

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Duck
+2 bishopsmike Kristian Øvrum

While I agree the sram derailleurs these days are pretty sturdy, anytime I thought about getting a new derailleur, the clutch issue disqualifies any sram option. I've worked on way too many bikes with worn out clutch, some with barely any riding on it. I find the clutch to be one of the most crucial upgrades derailleurs received in the past few decades actually. So having one that reliably works is kind of important. 

I've been disappointed having tried some transmission clutches even brand new. While it's nice you can replace it, it costs more than a Deore derailleur. 

Thought about TRP, then that rasta looking whatever, then I just gave up on derailing.

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neologisticzand
+1 Cam McRae

I've been on T-Type since the day after it's launch.  

I'm happily using it on all my bikes and while I wouldn't want to go back to mechanical at this point, I still do appreciate a good mechanical drivetrain and would put XT/XTR as my second choice in drivetrain. 

T-Type has held up exceptionally well for me and I really appreciate that it can be rebuilt. Drivetrain wear has also been excellent. Genuinely enjoy the groupset

Edit: speaking of wear, I've had even longer chain life on this drivetrain than I did x01 or xtr. Also nice to have a bunch of relatively cheap small parts on hand to rebuild a mech if I ever manage to destroy one.

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bishopsmike
+1 Timer

I would love to see the MSRP difference and sales performance of that Kona (or any GX AXS-specced bike) if instead it came with a full XT gruppo, or even full XTR?  Isn't XTR about the same retail price as GX AXS?  I won't pretend to know what Kona's internal cost difference would be between XTR vs GX AXS, and I know Sram plays a clever price-packaging game when the brand also purchases Sram brakes, dropper, and suspension, but dammit I would hope a similarly-priced full-XTR bike would sell better than one with GX AXS and guide brakes?

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cam@nsmb.com
0

I have had similar thoughts about what different spec. would cost. I remember Andrew Major writing about two models - one with GX T-type and one with GX Eagle as I recall -  and I believe he said the premium was 600 CAD. 

I've heard it said that pricing OE product differently based on how many components you spec.is against trade rules and essentially illegal and that SRAM doesn't engage in that practice. At the same time, they made a new bottom bracket standard when brands weren't spec'ing their cranks - and all they did was add a plastic sleeve to a 30mm ID bb so their cranks could go down to 28.99mm - so there's that. 

There are also subtle ways to sweeten a larger deal in terms of delivery times, shipping fees and payment terms. It's likely any company with enough leverage engages in these tactics. And it goes both ways, with larger bike manufacturers demanding better deals and team sponsorships in return for lots of spec.

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bishopsmike
+1 PowellRiviera

So then... GX T-type Kona Process or full XTR Kona Process for you?

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Lynx
+3 bishopsmike Dogl0rd BarryW

@Bishopsmike, I'd take the Process with Shimano Deore, Good Suspension and Brakes, then take the money saved and put it towards a bike trip

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Jotegir
+6 bishopsmike Cam McRae Lynx . BarryW Vincent Edwards Tjaard Breeuwer

We played this game in the comments of Mike's Top Fuel Review. Trek helped us out by offering both an XT and GX AXE version side by side for a $500 CAD difference. Rocky similarly offers an XT and X0 AXS drivetrain Instinct C70 and the difference there, stepping up to X0, is a staggering $1300. Obviously we can't comment on sales data. 

Re: Cam's point about pricing OE product differently based on how many components you spec is anti-competitive behaviour (the defined term) - perhaps, but volume discounts across the board are not, and to your later point I'm sure SRAM is going to treat a brand ordering thousands of NX/SX and GX AXS drivetrains better on the complete package of products than one going to Shimano for that level stuff.

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Timer
+6 Brad Sedola Jotegir Velocipedestrian Lynx . BarryW Vincent Edwards

I’ll take the bike with XT and Factory suspension over Transmission and Performance level, please!

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jessebock@gmail.com
+1 Cam McRae

I do wish Shimano would get on the "true wireless" shifting train a bit faster.  Not because I want to run it, but because I worry about them losing the shrinking market share they have these days and going the way of the Dodo (at least in the world of bicycling).  It does seem like SRAM have really brought about a true sea change with the T-Type mounting paradigm.  I wish Shimano could license that so they could be the ones to bring the cable actuated version to market.  I keep hoping Shimano will come blasting out of the gates one day soon with something similarly robust and innovative.  Alas...

The only real benefit I could ever see in electronic shifting is the logic you can program into a 2x drivetrain to keep gear ratios and chain lines in check.  Since we don't really need 2x drivetrains any more, I don't really see the need for electronic shifting.  Don't get me wrong.  I dig robots the most.  The idea of a little one on every ride with me is rad, but unnecessary.  Pushing buttons is fun, but I don't think it's necessary to make my bike work better than it already does.  Even after over 30 years of mountain biking, I still sometimes shift like a bone headed mutant from beyond the apocalypse.  A little robot to prevent me spoiling the bucolic quiet through which I'm riding would be nice, but not necessary to make my bike any better than it already is.  Improving the way in which we dangle one of the more expensive parts on our bikes, off of our bikes, is the only real innovation of "T-Type" to which I'm personally drawn.  There's a good chance that the next bike I own has this tech on it, and that'll be OK (ish).  It just doesn't have me clamoring for my wallet to make the change now.  I also ride a pre-UDH frame so there's that too...

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Timer
+3 Velocipedestrian BarryW Lynx .

Shimano isn’t going anywhere. They might not be ubiquitous in the tiny niche that is high end MTB at the moment. But they are everywhere in road and gravel and they fully own the entire commuter/city/touring/cargo/everyday part of the bike world. Plus, they command a significant share of the E bike motor segment.

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andy-eunson
+1 BarryW

There was some survey on some other site where it showed Shimano XT had the majority of drivetrains.

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Lynx
+1 Cam McRae

Have now read through and have to say, good, honest review/thoughts Cam, can somewhat understand your thoughts/preferences and why you appreciate this, but to me the act of shifting, braking etc is all part of the package and what makes riding a bike so enjoyable. Knowing that while, yes there's technology/advancements helping me, I'm also a big part of getting up and down and around on this machine, that the art of knowing how to shift is as much a part as knowing how to balance your weight, when to throw it forward, back, this side or that. 

The biggest thing I don't like about this is SRAM's pushing of electronic at the cost of better suspension or other more important parts/components that go on a bike, give me Deore 12spd, Factory suspension, top of the line brakes over electronic shifting with the lowest end suspension and crappy brakes, thanks very much.

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kos
+1 Jotegir

Perfect long read on a shite Saturday morning. Thanks, Cam!

Shit is heavy, too, and a bunch of that weight is unsprung, so boo on that. And SRAM quietly no longer includes carbon cranks on the “regular” XO1 group. But it costs more. Boo again.

For me, regular AXS gets the nod. XTR is better, but I don’t get to see what gear I’m in on my Garmin, and that matters to me for whatever reason.

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RayFreeman
+1 Cam McRae

I inadvertently ended up on AXS and then T-Type. During the pandemic, our Son broke his derailleur and our LBS only had a GX AXS in stock (he got my old mechanical GX and I took the AXS). The AXS generally performed well, but had too much clutch slack, especially for my Enduro. Last summer, I bought a '24 trail bike that came with Transmission. Yes, it does sometimes delay to shift. I do notice at times it shifts harshly under load. Otherwise, it's great. I check my tire pressures before every ride, so its no big deal to do a battery check. My Enduro has XO mechanical, which is a better choice for that bike as its my shuttle/park rig. I'm honestly happy with either mechanical or electronic shifting...except for potential replacement costs.

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dirtslurper
0

I haven't really been interested in electronic shifting mostly due to cost, but I saw this video recently and I'm wondering if anyone here has experienced similar issues?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLZc2nM3VSE

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cam@nsmb.com
0

This is the first time I've heard of that issue. It's likely a good idea to put a little di-electric grease in there to prevent it. Hopefully it will be addressed if it is widespread.

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info@thehafclip.com
0

I love my T-type. But yes I have expirence battery cinne tion issue on one derailleur, SRAM warrantied and replaced. Had a similar issue with the replacement but that was solved with a good cleaning. 

It is a thing. I beleive GX might be more prone due to how the battery is placed. Dirt/mud can gather there. And the water might sit there a bit. 

Always remove the battery, replace with the protector and frequently cleaning in the battery area.

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LoamtoHome
+1 Cam McRae

I've had happen 2x on my T-Type....  good thing for warranty. Apparently it was more of an issue on the 1st Gen.

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cam@nsmb.com
+1 Jerry Willows

SRAM often seems to do running changes without any fanfare. Hopefully you are correct.

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bikedrd
+1 Cam McRae

Two failures in two days for me. Both were warranted and the one of those that I’m using is working ok now.

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Lynx
0

What about those of us who don't live in the continental US/N.America or Europe? I always hear about "great CS" and warranty, but that only applies for those said people who live someplace like the US or Europe main, otherwise, you're generally SOL because it cost so much to post/ship it back and then be without it for weeks to months.

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dave_f
0

After seeing MRP release a relatively expensive guard for the bottom end of these, I felt vindicated in my aversion to mounting an (expensive) electric backhoe to the rear of my bike. On the flip side, maybe there is an opportunity here going forward? If SRAM doesn't want to, could a third party offer a shorter cage, maybe for 10 speed? Anything preventing the Chinese from doing a mechanical version?

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XXX_er
0 ZigaK Lynx .

I think people want this stuff, I think people want more shit ?

so tell me if a product manager brings out a bike  with 10spd 

cuz like thats all we really need ?

will people buy it, so  will it sell ? 

will he still be a product manager for the same brand next year ?

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cam@nsmb.com
0

Some Corrections Made for Accuracy

There were several things I got wrong in this article that have now been corrected and one point that needed further clarification. I would like to restate them here, particularly because one of them could cause problems and I don't want it to be missed.

1. I wrote that you may strip your mounting bolt if you try to remove it with the axle bolt removed. In fact it's the opposite. Your axle must be removed or you could strip the mounting bolt. 

2.  I stated that I stripped my derailleur. I made it clear later that it was the mounting bolt that stripped and not the derailleur but that's an important distinction. 

3. While SRAM did indeed cut my derailleur off, it can be removed without damaging the derailleur. SRAM's techs may have made this decision because it was less time consuming. Normally you would only need to replace the stripped mounting bolt. 

4. I said that SRAM had stated that T-type shifting was as fast or faster than other derailleurs. In fact what they actually said was that, because the chain spends more time in contact with the cassette, you are able to ride faster and not that the actual shifts are faster.

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Tjaardbreeuwer
0

The one big issue you didn’t mention (for all AXS) is the spring loaded pogo pins that provide the battery derailleur contact.

These can fail, as the tiny springs get compressed, or corroded. If that happens, you lose shifting. Happened to a kid on our race team, mid race. Rather annoying to put it mildly.

Worse, the pins are located in the derailleur. If the were on the battery, you’d just put a new battery in. Instead, your expensive derailleur is toast, unless you take your derailleur apart, find replacement pins somewhere (not at sram), and solder the tiny buggers back in.

The GX T-type has that horizontal layout for the battery, which some speculate increase the amount of water staying on the pins.

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HMBA106
-1 Cam McRae BarryW Duck

I humbly request that you change the photo caption, "You can absolutely call yourself a mountain biker without it.".  The mere premise that this sentence entertains is absolutely ludicrous.

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cam@nsmb.com
+1 T_Chilly

I was being facetious. 

If you are new here, welcome!

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HMBA106
+1 Cam McRae Mammal BarryW

Fair and glad to hear.  Been around for a while but I guess not long enough!  Not my typical verbiage so that makes it a bit harder to recognize.  I guess I'm just a bit jaded that there was all this hype around a stupidly expensive product that isn't actually much better, and in some ways is worse, than what has been around for a while.  But hey, to each their own.

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cam@nsmb.com
+4 HMBA106 T_Chilly dave_f BarryW

That was the point I was trying to make in an indirect way but I can see how it might not be clear to everyone. 

Thanks for chiming in!

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HMBA106
+1 Cam McRae

Cheers Cam, I enjoyed the piece overall and appreciated some of the ownership insights which I will certainly pass on to consumers from my side of the repair stand.

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cam@nsmb.com
+1 HMBA106

Thanks very much!

Lynx
-3 James Hayes XXX_er Duck

Sorry man Cam, I couldn't read through it all, or all the comments before posting my thoughts on it. All of that is a problem created by the bike industry to sell more shit, tell me WTF was wrong with 10spd, please? Nothing, all they had to do was spread the range more, like they now have, spacing between gears is bigger, which makes adjusting easier and you have more clearance for the crap you'll get in there riding a bike off road. 

Front derailleurs, what was wrong with them, easy to use, dump equivalent to 3 or 4 gears easily when you come upon that unknown sudden steep climb, keep better chainline, less chain wear, all you had to do was actually not be a moron and enjoy the participation of riding your bike and having to do the tiniest bit of thinking. I guess it was confusing to many, especially when droppers came along and there were multiple levers now on the left. The argument about dropping chains using a FD are BS, you can still run an FD WITH Narrow Wide rings and all you get is marginally slower shifting, that's it, can't recall the last time I lost the chain using an FD.

Yeah great, get good shifting but what about your $3k> frame and the load it takes?

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andy-eunson
+2 Cam McRae XXX_er

I hear what you’re saying but I don’t agree. When we ran 3 by or 2 by we never used all the rear cogs in a given chainring. In 2 by 10 I’d use the small ring with the 5 lowest gears and big ring in maybe the 5 highest but the highest gear was rarely used. Three by was similar. And shiftable chainrings are designed to drop chains. I dropped chains when the rings and chain started to wear too much. I doubt your assertion that narrow wide rings just shift a little slower. 

I think there’s an argument that if you’re using all the cassette cogs of a 12 speed that the wear is spread out amongst all those cogs whereas on a cassette with fewer cogs concentrates the wear on fewer cogs. You do get a better chain line with two chainrings. My personal experience with XO1 eagle and 12 speed XT is the durability is far better than anything I’ve used in the past. I’m not getting much elongation to 12 speed chains but lateral play instead. 

The only thing a smaller range cassette gives you is better resolution or smaller jumps between gears. Which for road racing might be important but for recreational off roading isn’t really an issue for many people. The only thing multiple chainrings and a front derailleur and shifter get is the ability to identify as an old curmudgeonly Luddite. (I’m just teasing you).

Ps. You want some front derailleurs? I have plenty.

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Lynx
0

You just backed up what I was saying, you used different cogs with different rings and hence better chainline, which created less wear on all the elements of the drivetrain and better overall usage of all the cogs, not just 3 or 4 like I regularly can "see" with 12spd.
I have replaced a good few 12spd cassettes for people because of a couple bad cogs that were worn and causing issues because they were the main gears that the person used, if they had a 2x setup, instead of using say the big ring (32-36t lets say) on the 3rd largest cog to climb, they could shift to the small ring (22-26t) and then use the 5th or 6th cogs. 

Another bit of FYI is that the old 47mm chainline actually works brilliantly with modern 148 rears, 51mm is OK, but 47 is the tits. Heck I run 47mm XTR cranks on my Phantom and I have 142x12 and 150x12 wheels for it and the chainline is SO much better on the 150x12 set vs the 142x12.

I shift just fine with NW chainrings Andy, similar to back in the day before cassettes had shift ramps, people still managed to shift without all the fancy ramps. Made a video a good few years ago for same said reason, people questioning using NW rings and an FD, if I can find the video and upload it, I will.

As to all the FDs you guys have and can send me, sure, but I'm curious if you ever tried/rode the newest Shimano FDs? They are a LOT different than the old stuff, a LOT. Shimano's new side swing FDs are amazing, much easier and stronger shift.

I've been running 2x since 2008 on the full gamut of MTBs, rigid, HT and FS and I haven't experienced all these dropped chains people talk about, occassionally, yes, but not regularly, but then again I'm also more cognoscente of the gear I'm in when descending and try to make sure that it's one that will help keep the tension on the chain, so not down past the middle of the cassette.

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cam@nsmb.com
+8 Raymond Epstein XXX_er BarryW bishopsmike Duck Andy Eunson Brad Sedola DancingWithMyself

Front derailleurs were awful. Dropped chains were a regular occurrence. I might drop a chain once a year with a narrow wide chain ring and a 12x cassette. How exactly do you do that with a front derailleur?

I rode 3x for decades, 2x for a bit, and I'm vastly happier on 1x. 

I'm not so sure about your point of load on the frame. It seems to me that the axle takes the load. 

I also have a FD or two for you.

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XXX_er
0 Cam McRae Lynx .

Yeah other than missing some gear range I didn't  miss a front der on the 11spd shimano which never dropped a chain period in its  first season but i had to go down 2 teeth on the chain ring to get enough low gear range cuz its hilly here. 

On the Sram with 85NMs, I'm up 6 teeth on the chainring, I use the whole 12spd cluster all the time, definatley more than I ever did on the acoustic bike cuz I can and  I don't miss 2x at all

there was some talk of running narrow wide on a 2x but if one did that wouldnt the chain only be in the right place to fit on the narrow wide  chain wheels  50% of the time ?

I still have a bar bike with Light-action Deore which I now leave in one gear and its  never shifted  as good as any of the very cheapest spec indexed shifters year after year in almost 50 yrs

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Lynx
0

I imbedded the video and it showed, but just came back to check and it's gone again, so if anyone's interested, here's my 2x NW setup shifting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3tpr2JHVqI

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Lynx
+1 BarryW

Cam, you're throwing the blame at the wrong place, it wasn't the FDs fault, it was the rear derailleurs and those soft AF springs that basically did nothing to add tension, it was the introduction of clutched derailleurs that mostly stopped the dropped chains. Seriously, I dare you to go build up a bike now with a 2x setup/FD and a clutch derailleur, regular ramped shift rings, bet you won't be dropping the chain as you remember. Clutched derailleurs is why I eventually swapped to 10spd in 2016, that's it, otherwise 9spd was working just fine, loved my Rapid Rise RD, smartest design to let the RD do the major work of doing the harder shifts, much nicer on the thumbs.

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andy-eunson
+1 Lynx .

Absolutely clutch derailleurs were a "game changer" for fewer dropped chains. I was going to mention rapid rise or low normal derailleurs too. I liked mine. And they shifted like Transmission in the sense that going to lower gear the system ‘waited" for the shift gates instead of being forced to lower gear. But that system was too different for most people. 

Even the best front derailleurs never shifted as well as a rear derailleur consistently.  That’s why it made sense in my mind to shift the range to the rear derailleur. I used a few two by setups. Race Face and XTR. With those setups where I lived and rode I spent the vast majority of rides in the small ring. I think I had a 24X32 and 26X32. Those small rings wore out pretty quick. And Chains too.  The newest 1X12 in my experience are far more durable. Particularly the steel XT rings. 

Your point on chain line is valid but again not a big deal in my experience. One thing that can help chain line is longer chain stays or running a non boost ring if you can. That BMX out back DH out front design needs to fuck off.

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GrundleJ
0

are you saying that a non-boost chainline is better on a boost rear end than a boost chainline?

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Lynx
-1 GrundleJ

Absa-fvcking-lutely Grundlej, just look at the photo I posted above of my Banshee Phantom with 150 x 12 rear and an older XT M760 crank running 2x setup with a 49/50mmm chainline. I'll post it here too.

Perfect chainline

HollyBoni
+1 Lynx .

I usually run a tighter chain line than ~52mm on a boost frame as well, if the frame allows it. It comes down to clearance to the chainring at the chain stays.

andy-eunson
+1 Lynx .

It worked well on my hardtail with XO1 eagle. No chain jump back pedaling on the 52. My XT does that rarely.

Timer
+2 Lynx . ZigaK DancingWithMyself Duck

For typical mountainbiking, with lots of time and power spent in the large cogs, the non-boost chainline on boost rear hubs is a lot better. Reduces wear on the large cogs, which are often aluminium and tend to wear out the fastest. 

The most recent trend of 55mm chainlines with boost rear ends is even worse. That makes absolutely no sense on a human-powered bike, if you don't have the legs of a XC world champ.

Lynx
-1 GrundleJ

Seems to me Andy like you've not tried the newest FDs then, because honestly, compared to the old stuff, almost as big a difference as old non-clutch RDs to clutched RDs.

Shimano's new Side Swing, front pull FDs are amazing, I've got a whole box of almost new older FDs I replaced from my loaner/rental bikes with them because they are so good, although will admit, have since moved most of them to a 1x setup, because well, people are lazy and don't like to think - the amount of times I'd find newer riders I was guiding who "knew" how to ride in the small ring and almost the smallest or smallest cog used to infuriate the crap out of me.

Here's a pic of my 2x NW setup with the new Shimano FD, well at least the first iteration, I'm now running an even older M950 crank, 47mm chainline with big ring cut off so it's just middle and small, 26/34, normal rings, 11spd XT RD but 10spd shifter/cassette and I don't drop my chain.

2x NW setup.

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andy-eunson
+3 Duck Timer BarryW

I’ve seen those side swings and I think I set one up. But no recollection when or on whose bike it was. I know they work well but not having to shift works even better. Often a front shift will also require a rear shift or two as well. I don’t miss that at all. Modern one by twelve work so so well. And simpler with only one shifter and derailleur.

Jotegir
+1 BarryW

Ah yes, the New side swing FD's that came out in.... 2014.

Lynx
+1 ZigaK

Touche Jotegir, but as FDs go, they're the newest/latest, can't help that the industry pushed 1x setups heavily just after that, although will say, can't see how they could improve on this design TBH, except maybe make them for narrow chainlines like my old XTR M950 has so I don't have to fenagle a solution to use the small ring and anything above the 3rd largest cog without the chain rubbing it.

GrundleJ
-1 Lynx .

I am unable to reply directly to your last post for some reason, but a 51mm chainline *is* a boost chainline (51-53mm)

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Lynx
-1 GrundleJ

Went and measured, it's been a while, it's actually 49/50 on those old M760 XT cranks depending on exactly how you have the BB spaced, so my bad on giving the wrong measurement, it's why I specifically noted which crank it was, that "new" chainline was introduced sometime I think 2004, older was 45-47 IIRC, which I now run on that same frame with 150x12 rear, Boost wasn't introduced until 2014 IIRC and I have exactly zero of those cranks.

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GrundleJ
-1 Lynx .

The center of a freehub (cassette) on a 150 rear spaced hub is a 53mm chainline.  Why would you intentionally run it 4mm off?

Lynx
-2 bishopsmike mnihiser

@Grundlej, you obviously have vision problems, if you didn't, you would see that in the photo the chain is straight, or at least as close as it gets, this on the 5th cog of a 9spd cassette, i.e. the actual middle of the cassette. Maybe it's not vision problems you have and in fact it's that you're an engineer and one of those who always goes by theoretical instead of real world, if so, please let us know if you design anything we might use , be in etc., so we can to not be.

As to maybe why I run the older M950 47mm chainline cranks with it, well this goes back to theoretical vs real world, and in the real world having my chainline slightly inboard is better, it helps to stop the dropped chains people experience because of the severe chain angles and it's definitely not going to drop off the smallest cog since there's hardly any tension. 

As to your Boost 51-53, you really should not just quote the first result when you search for shit, if you'd read more you'd realise that they're now realising that the  actual old Boost chainline was too wide and are now saying the 51-53 you quoted and the smarter ones actually say 49-50 if you're not running plus tyres, that might be the only reason for running your rings further out than 50mm.

Anyways, this will be my last reply to you, my father always told me don't argue with idiots, they'll just try to drag you down to their depths of stupidity.

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