First Look
Knolly Chilcotin 155
Knolly Chilcotin 155 Deore Build
"Finally, a straight top tube Knolly" chanted the internet armchair bike designers in perfect harmony. Little did they know, the Knolly people did not care if their North Shore-bred, South Vancouver-designed bikes had angled, curvy or straight top tubes. Turns out, once a K-addict, forever a K-addict.
I checked out out the previous generation Knolly a few years ago in the deep pandemic days: Knolly 167. That bike was a bit of a beast with MaxxGrip DoubleDown tires and plenty of travel front and back. In size medium, it was nearly identical in most numbers to the size small Chilcotin 155 I was handed to ride. After a few back and forth emails about which size to settle on, I hesitantly opted for the Small. While the new small has a more compact effective top tube due to the steeper seat tube angle, it shares most of the other geometry numbers with the older bike in the previous neutral geometry position.
The new generation of Knolly frames look pretty damn good.
The Chilcotin 170 and 155 share the same frame and different shock lengths. (205x60mm vs 205x65mm)
While the outgoing Chilly had one-size-fits-all all chainstay lengths, the new generation of frames make sure that all vertically gifted riders are treated with respect thanks to growing stays. While the size Small is 438mm, the X-Large frames sport 450mm chainstays for a more balanced riding experience. Paired with a 462mm reach and 619mm stack, the new small is where I like my bikes to be. It's a familiar position where I can easily compare all the bikes (4 alone this month!) that come through for testing. I also requested an entry level build with a sensible price to see if the components determine the ride quality or if the frame is the key player in the equation. Is the Deore level build, at 6,000 CAD, a candidate to be the 10-year bike for the raw aluminium loving Knation members out there?
Yes I ride size Small bikes now.
Yep. Still a size Small with reduced reach number.
Believe it or not, I still haven't put my wheels on the sweet grizzly infested singletrack of the Chilcotin Mountain range. The promised land of hard days on the pedals carrying an intense amount of supplies for point to point riding seems to call for shorter travel bikes with an energetic pedaling character. While the 33-lb alloy bike from Knolly may not be designed for multi-day Chilcotin epics, It is definitely as burly as the mountains that you need to scale on a daily basis in the range. The sticker that makes the statement, BC Tough, is the design and build motto behind every Knolly frame.
Sticker of approval, although I would rather see a tool mount or a sweet fender or maybe even a little custom bag here.
Knolly Four by 4 suspension. Lots of pivots, many many bearings.
It's a dual 29er with proper OEM tires!
When you choose a bike with Deore level components, you make a certain statement. It can be that you just don't care about all the promised shifting quality, braking power or weight savings of higher-priced gear. Whatever it is, the Deore setup gets shit done without complaint. Sure the shifter upshifts one gear at a time compared to the 2 gears you get with XT and XTR, and yeah, the brake levers do not have tool-free adjustments. None of those details take away from the fact that the all-steel gear set on the cassette will outlast the apocalypse just as the M6120 brakes stop the well-mannered trail bike in its tracks.
12 steel gears...weighs a ton, shifts acceptably well.
Good looking as the Deore derailleur is, it also costs under $100 if you smash it on a rock.
Sure you don't get to drop down the cassette at a rapid pace, but you are not in a hurry riding the Chilcotin 155 anyways.
SLX cranks are one of the best values in the market. Give me 24mm spindles and a steel chainring any day of the week.
I was a little surprised to see a previous generation RockShox Super Deluxe on this bike.
Liking the new graphics on the Marzocchi Z1 and the Grip damper it comes with. Convert it to coil for a couple of hundred bucks if you want a set and forget fork, or add a Grip2 damper for more adjustability.
It's good to see appropriate tires on a build like this too. Maxxis white labels front and rear with the EXO+ Assegai MaxxGrip taking the helm and an EXO+ DHR II MaxxTerra bringing up the rear. A Dissector wouldn't be out of place for a bike like this either but with all the 150mm bikes I have been riding lately, the DHR II is on par.
Nothing to change here.
That 3-2-3 formula works well.
If there are any doubts about the stopping power of the Deore 6120 brakes, they need to be forgotten. The architecture of the brakes shares everything with their flagship model, the XTR. Internally, while the XTR uses different anodizing and machining procedures, and employs a ceramic piston at the master cylinder, the Deore uses cheaper tooling and plastic pistons that wear out a little faster. The power and modulation of Deore brakes are very similar to SLX, XT and XTR when properly bled and do no disservice on a bike like the Chilcotin 155.
Deore M6120 brakes work well in every situation.
Glad to see proper metallic pads on the budget build.
A 180mm rotor works without an adapter on the frame.
But the front has a more Shore appropriate 203mm rotor.
While the overall visual appeal of Knolly bikes has improved with the introduction of straight top tubes, there is still the void created by the straight seat tube and long reach decisions. The space that shall be known as the K-Void is a prime candidate for some tool storage or a custom frame bag made by a small local company. I bet bicyclepubes would be stoked to challenge their fans to fashion a tiny bag that can fit there to carry some questionably useful gear.
Really, can we utilize this rear estate? Maybe affordable housing for all the snacks I need to carry on a ride?
The bike arrived in the neutral position, I immediately put it into slack.. because slack is better.
You can't go wrong with a DT Swiss M1900 alloy wheelset and the 370 hub. While the 350 is nicer, lighter and comes stock with a 36t ratchet, the 18t on the 370 does the job well. The low engagement is noticeable on the pedals but I'll take comfort in knowing that the 18t is stronger than the finer tooth 36t. The alloy rims from the Swiss company are very durable. We'll see how they survive the trail focused Chilcotin 155.
The DT swiss m1900 wheelset is another workhorse.
The 370 hub ditched its pawls for ratchet drive a couple of years ago... thank dog!
Knolly tends to do cable and hose routing right. There are no cables or hoses that go near the headset and the Chilcotin delivers an internal front triangle and external rear triangle experience. While I am not a fan of the C clips used on this test bike, as they tend to toss themselves into the bushes and pollute the trails, I will swap these out for some florescent zipties for some pizzazz on this monochromatic build. The bottom of the BB shell has a tooled opening for Di2 integration and easy access to the dropper housing to point it up the seat tube when replacing.
Cables go into the rear triangle in the CORRECT way.
I've always enjoyed the rear cable exit on Knolly frames. It looks nice and works well for an external few feet of brake and shifter housing. It may look odd with an AXS derailleur in the back, however.
These C-clips go flying often, so they will be replaced with zip ties.
The ever present metal headbadge. Thanks Knolly.
Yes there are lots of pivots and thus bearings on Knollys. 14+ bearings to change on a frame can get a little intense if one has to do them often. The Chilcotin comes with all Enduro bearings throughout backed by a sticker on the top tube. But the main pivot bearing is rather small and is fully exposed to the elements with no secondary seal in sight. I imagine water will make its way into the bearing easier than some of the other designs but only time will tell if my theory is sound.
With all the space, I would have liked to see bigger bearings and secondary seals in the main pivot.
The bearings are super easy to get to in case of needed maintenance.
Titanium hardware is sexy, even when painted over.
I've also always liked the Knolly seatpost collars. They should experiment with purple anodizing...seriously.
24mm spindles, external BSA bottom brackets. Love it!
Fancy schmancy logo hidden by the shock. I love this on the Ti Tyaughton frame engraved on the headtube!
Damn it Knolly, why wouldn't you get me this colour for testing?
Black anodized looks sweet.
I am less into this fade thing, but still looks interesting.
The new Chilcotin is going to be staying with me for a while and we will embark on some adventures together over the next few weeks. I will do my best to test the limits of the smaller of the 2 bikes you get from the same frame and see if the new generation 150mm bikes are the way to go (so far I am loving 64deg HA 150mm bikes that are popping up).
The first ride on the Chilly has been promising with stellar descending performance but I still need to play with the shock settings to settle on a good balance of climbing and descending. The pedaling position is excellent but I hoped for a little longer dropper considering the amount of seat tube there is to play with. 170mm is OK but I'd love to see a 210. If I can source a new one to test, I will do so.
5'8"
162lbs
Playful, lively riding style
Photographer and Story Teller
Lenticular Aesthetician
Comments
Sandy James Oates
1 month, 2 weeks ago
Beautiful welding!
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Deniz Merdano
1 month, 2 weeks ago
We are here for the weld comments!
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Sandy James Oates
1 month, 1 week ago
And the overall bike looks great as well. I used to do a lot of aluminum welding so I look at the welds on everything.
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tashi
1 month, 1 week ago
The raw Knollys in particular are super nice looking - I find myself staring at all the welds and little smart and practical details on mine. So happy that it’s not a hydroformed, smoothed weld wannabe carbon kinda bike and that the tequila sunrise paint job wasn’t available, forcing me to go raw.
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Raymond Epstein
1 month, 2 weeks ago
I think the bike looks great. I have hard time believing that it weighs only 33 lbs. While I've always thought Knollys were unique and probably awesome, I don't think I've ever seen one in real life as they just are not around in the deep south. Plenty of Banshees; no Knollys. My only knock against it is the 157 rear spacing, which yes does work, but requires complete commitment to that universe. Not to mention no real benefits I could ever perceive in the two years I had a 157 spacing equipped bike. Argue amongst yourselves. 🤘🤣
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Deniz Merdano
1 month, 2 weeks ago
33lbs is confirmed on the scale. I too was surprised. They are common here but not as much as one would think.
157 is a tough one. My Tyaughton is one and the only one in the fleet. While I can't steal wheels from it in a pinch, I can steal the freehub, and endcaps, which is equally helpful.
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Raymond Epstein
1 month, 2 weeks ago
I am not aware of any 148 wheels that can be converted to 157 without re-lacing/re-truing/dishing them. So basically a full rebuild. That still takes a minute to do and since I do not build my own wheels it is out of my wheelhouse. (pun-intended)🤣 I tried that at first to save a few bucks and the wheel blew up pretty quickly.
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axle
1 month, 2 weeks ago
https://problemsolversbike.com/products/super-booster-hub-spacing-kit-rear
This kit is $20, I have run it on multiple 157 bikes with and without re-dishing the rear wheel. Have it on my current Knolly without re-dishing, plenty of tire clearance. No travel through time, space or alternate universes required.
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Raymond Epstein
1 month, 2 weeks ago
That is the one I ran too. This was over 4 years ago. Maybe they've gotten better. I'm sticking with 148 as all my bikes have that and until a 157 spacing bike comes along that cannot be approached performance-wise by it's smaller brethren I'm out.
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Curveball
1 month, 1 week ago
33 pounds. On a Deore/Z1 build. Aluminum. Damn that's impressive. I'm pretty sure that my mid-tier carbon bike is heavier than that.
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tashi
1 month, 1 week ago
It’s a real problem unfortunately.
I’ve always tried to keep my bikes cross-compatible but held my nose when I bought my Fugitive since it came with DT hubs and it’s a very very nice bike otherwise.
I’m now on my second failed freehub body, have had under ten successful rides on the bike, and while Knolly has been fantastic, I’m missing rides when I wouldn’t be if the bike were 148. I should have learned my lesson with my RadWagon fiasco.
Having serious doubts about my plan to add a Ty- it’s either run 2 bikes that can’t swap wheels or double down on StupidBoost.
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DancingWithMyself
1 month, 1 week ago
This. Any bike I buy is going to reside in the existing ecosystem of my other bikes. And all other thing being equal, I'm choosing something with cross compatibility for this exact reason.
Thx for sharing your suffering to strengthen my resolve. Almost feel like I've been to group therapy.
Sometimes I wonder if new superboost bikes are not about measurable gains in function, but rather the result of engineers being stubborn about what's "right" in the sense of the standard they think should have been chosen.
But lots of thing to like about this bike. Solid effort by Knolly
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Mark
1 month, 1 week ago
I like the idea of asking whether this could be a 10 year bike. With what higher end bikes cost these days, I think the question of getting 5-10yrs out of a frame is a pretty reasonable thing to consider.
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Shoreboy
1 month, 2 weeks ago
Where do small riders fit into this sizing scheme? If you are 5'8" on a small, what about riders who are in the 5'0 to 5'5" range? That reach is starting to get pretty long for the smaller riders no?
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Carlos Matutes
1 month, 2 weeks ago
The updated Warden should be coming out by summer, and will most likely be geared more for smaller riders.
They've done this with the new Endorphin, and I imagine Warden:Chilcotin=Endorphin:Fugitive
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Deniz Merdano
1 month, 2 weeks ago
This is a well educated guess
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Skooks
1 month, 2 weeks ago
Great question. I'm just under 5'7" and I feel like the small Chilcotin would be too long for me. Currently on a small Fugitive 138 and Tyaughton and they feel great.
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knollybikes.com
1 month, 1 week ago
Hi Skooks:
Small Chilcotin will fit you just fine :) It fits customers down to about 5'4" in height.
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lkubica
1 month, 1 week ago
The sizing on those new bikes look a bit strange, not the geometry, but the height recommendations. Denis is 5'8 and rides an S, I am 5'11 and would rather take M looking at the charts. So are we wrong?
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knollybikes.com
1 month, 1 week ago
This comment has been removed.
Martin
1 month, 1 week ago
I always choose my frame size by looking at the reach number AND the effective top tube length, which dictates how one feels when pedaling seated. One should not only check the the reach numbers, as the efective top tube length varies greatly depending of the effective seat tube angle.
I am 5'8" and ride a 467mm reach Large frame with a 620mm effective top tube, which I chose based on the reach that corresponded the ETT length that I am the most comfortable on. On the New Chilotin, I'd probably feel perfect on a Medium (483mm reach, 624mm ETT), which is the size that I should "technically" be on with my height.
lkubica
1 month, 1 week ago
Hi, are you still measuring ETT "the Knolly way"? It seems you took the approach "the longer reach is always better" and this is a personal preference for sure when it comes to reach, but, ETT for me is much more "strict" mesurement, I feel good on 615mm ett bike, any shorter I feel cramped, any longer I feel too stretched. I can adapt to loger reach/wb, but not to longer ETT. 650 on a large seems absolutely too much, but I know Knolly used to measure ETT differently. So no I am totally confused whether Large would fit me or not...
Cee Cee
1 month, 1 week ago
I'm 6' and would like a Small, based on 'base and probable tt length with 50mm stem and riser. Who are we?--ballz for Smallz
Edit: forgot bike length. E.g. add 25mm per wheel when extrapolating airborne handling from 27 to MX or 29", presuming wheels are same weight
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Allen Lloyd
1 month, 2 weeks ago
I will be watching this space closely. The 170 Chilcotin is on my list of potential next bikes. The long reach short stack worries me that too much weight will be forward on the bike. It is the only medium bike on my list and it still has the longest reach of my main contenders. The stack is even more extreme with a 15 mm difference between the Chil and a Spindrift. What I really like is Knolly selling bikes with Shimano builds I refuse to ride Sram brakes and prefer to not ride their drivetrains. But most new bikes force you into the whole kit and kabootle :(
For reference my short list is: Spindrift, Spire, Jekyll, Chilcotin the order of preference has flipped many times.
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Deniz Merdano
1 month, 2 weeks ago
How tall are you?
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Allen Lloyd
1 month, 1 week ago
5'11" 225 pounds loaded and ready to ride.
I have an older school riding style (aka I can't adapt to how bikes ride today) so I am naturally rear biased when I ride. I am more comfortable with a higher stack, but when I get sketchy it is almost always from not enough weight on the front of the bike. Last year my son progressed to pass me in the downhill skills area so I want a nice big bike to try and keep up with him for a couple more years.
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IslandLife
1 month, 1 week ago
Add some spacers which also convieniently shortens your effective reach.
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Allen Lloyd
1 month, 1 week ago
Found a good deal on a Jekyll so no more watching this stuff, don't worry I will still read the reviews out of curiosity :)
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AndrewR
1 month, 1 week ago
And you haven't considered the Arrival?
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axle
1 month, 2 weeks ago
Nice photos, looking forward to hearing your thoughts after more ride time, I have the 170 version of this bike and have been thoroughly enjoying it. As for size comparisons - I put together a geometry chart comparing this to several other popular enduro bikes, granted it is for the size M Chili vs Larges in other bikes but interesting to see where the Chili falls - https://www.mtbr.com/threads/new-chilcotin.1226976/page-2#lg=thread-1226976&slide=0
As for the bearings, I've been riding a Fugitive for 5 years and the only bearings I replaced were in the rocker and push links which is a fairly easy job. The main pivot and chainstay bearings are still going smooth as were the ones on the 3 year old Chilcotin 167 I just sold.
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Allen Lloyd
1 month, 1 week ago
I feel much better knowing I am not the only one with a geo spreadsheet. My next level is a Power BI dashboard.
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JT
1 month, 2 weeks ago
Where others have a loam shelf, Knolly has a loam loaf. That bit of real estate does look prime for an integrated fender/ snack stash compartment. Might be able to shield those lower bearings a bit better in the process. Crazy that the reach on that small is pretty much dead nuts on as a S3 Specialized Status.
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DanL
1 month, 2 weeks ago
I love(d ) the loam shelf and used it like a snowstake measurement after rides.
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Deniz Merdano
1 month, 2 weeks ago
It's Loam Depot
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Cr4w
1 month, 1 week ago
Everyone go home. We've peaked.
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NealWood
1 month, 1 week ago
That's where I keep my spare tube strapped on my bike. Also the lower bearings have been surprisingly robust. I wouldn't point a power washer at them though.
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Morgan Heater
1 month, 2 weeks ago
I must be one of the only people that actually preferred the old silhouette. They gave me early 90s lifted tacoma vibes.
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Deniz Merdano
1 month, 2 weeks ago
Odd vibes to get from a bike but I dig your style
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axle
1 month, 1 week ago
From an aesthetic perspective I'm pretty indifferent but from a functional perspective I'm with you on preference towards the old kinked top tube - it was so much easier to pickup/carry than the new one. From simple things to loading on a truck/rack to hike a biking, having a bit of room for your hand between the shock and top tube was really nice and I miss it.
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Lu Kz
1 month, 1 week ago
My wife has always loved the way knollys look and preferred the old silhouette. With all things asthetic I am smart enough to know that she is correct.
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lkubica
1 month, 2 weeks ago
Sorry, but 205x60mm and 205x65mm shocks have the same length 🙂
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Deniz Merdano
1 month, 2 weeks ago
It's what's on the inside that counts...but technically, yes you are correct
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axle
1 month, 2 weeks ago
Technically you are correct, you just didn't specify when you said 'different' you were referring the 'stroke' length as opposed to 'eye-to-eye' length.
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Deniz Merdano
1 month, 2 weeks ago
Technically, we are getting too technical for something very obvious for all three of us
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lkubica
1 month, 1 week ago
I was just wondering what is the difference between 151 and 170, cause if the shock length is the same, and they seem to have different geometry, then something else MUST be different, like the rocker. I would appreciate such info.
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axle
1 month, 1 week ago
Geometry wise 160 vs 170mm travel fork is the only difference. The taller fork makes the HA and SA slightly slacker, reach shorter and BB higher on the 170.
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knollybikes.com
1 month, 1 week ago
axle is correct:
The 155 and 170 are the same bike, spec'd with different suspension:
A few factors contribute to how they ride subtly different: the 155 has a steeper seat tube angle by about 0.5 degrees and slightly less sag and a slightly lower front end when climbing. All of this helps to shift the bike more towards either mixed technical riding (Chilcotin 155) or full descending focus (Chilcotin 170). It's subtle but absolutely noticeable.
This also doesn't take into account the roughly extra 300g when switching from a 36 / Lyrik to a 38 / Zeb.
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Carlos Matutes
1 month, 2 weeks ago
Looking forward to the reviews. I’ve had the previous generation Chilcotin for going on 3 years, and while the geometry tweaks (and slightly better aesthetics) tempt me, I’m not sure I can justify replacing a bike that rides so well.
Knolly builds awfully durable bikes. Maybe not the best for selling a ton of bikes, but certainly ensures customer loyalty.
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Lu Kz
1 month, 2 weeks ago
I'd have liked to see the Float X featured rather than the Super Deluxe on a bike that is designed to accommodate multiple stroke lengths on a single platform. Swapping travel on a foxzocci fork and float x shock is a two beer job for the both of them with a bit of experience, and one that can be done in most people's home shop with minimal tool investment. I'd have to think that the ability to try it in both 155 and 170 without spending substantial cash would be a selling feature for a 'this brand is for bike nerds' brand like knolly.
My understanding of the new SD is it is explicitly user unfriendly with respect to swapping strokes, requiring both a reset of the IFP and in fact a different damper body assembly for the HBO (and the physical object that changes stroke is not readily accessible in any event). I don't see the SD vs Float X as having a clear winner, but Knolly obviously know their platform better than I do so perhaps there's a better reason than anything I can come up with?
At least the marzocci z1 graphics are much improved. That fork looks premium now!
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knollybikes.com
1 month, 2 weeks ago
Hey Lu Kz:
We also sell the Chilcotin with the Float X2, and it's quite easy to change the stroke of this shock (Same process as the Float X). We feel that the Float X2 is a better option than the Float X for a bike like the Chilcotin and Warden, whereas we spec the Float X on our trail bikes such as the Fugitive and Endorphin.
Cheers,
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Lu Kz
1 month, 2 weeks ago
Hey I appreciate this response, thanks for taking the time - I did see the X2 was available on some of Chilcotin models. In my mind (a consumer, not a brand manager or engineer), and this could just be because of the visible similarities between them, the Float X is to the X2 as the SD air is to the Vivid, i.e. the Float X and SD are directly comparable - did the SD's feature set (HBO being the biggest difference off hand) sway you to it over the Float X for the Chilcotin? I could be convinced that if that was the case, for most people, the inability to easily swap travel is worth having the better features in the SD.
Maybe I'm overthinking it.
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Deniz Merdano
1 month, 2 weeks ago
You are over thinking it because the bike comes with the previous gen Super Deluxe. no HBO
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Lu Kz
1 month, 1 week ago
I don't think there's much value to keep laying into this, but just in case someone is reading this and thinking "oh, its the previous gen SD, changing the travel is easy then", I will just add that they still didn't make it easy. You can bodge it by going in and carefully cutting off the spacer from the shaft (the wrong way to do it), or you can do it the right way which involves pulling the shock apart, removing the head assembly, sliding the spacer off, and resetting the IFP depth. You don't have to replace the damper body but they didn't make it chill.
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Skooks
1 month, 1 week ago
I cut the spacer out of my sd shock. Super easy to do and have had no issues with it.
Deniz Merdano
1 month, 2 weeks ago
This comment has been removed.
justwan naride
1 month, 1 week ago
The new top tube looks great, esp. the fact that it forms a single straight line with the seat stays. Sizing is weird though, I'm 5'4" and always on small frames with 430-440mm reach. 462mm is a full size up. Not an actual problem as I'm not looking for a new bike, just wondering whether bikes will continue growing forever.
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Ride.DMC
1 month, 1 week ago
Hilarious that the 2024 size small Chilcotin has almost identical reach as my 2023 size large Capra. 5mm difference on the 155mm travel version. The stack does seem a little low on paper. Will be interesting to read how it rides.
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Timer
1 month, 1 week ago
Stack is important, though. Would be interesting to see what remains in terms of reach if you adjust stack on the Knolly to that of the Capra.
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pntfive
1 month, 2 weeks ago
Deniz,
I realize that you have limited time on the Chilcotin 155 and that the travel is different, but are you able to compare it against the previous generation Chilcotin 167 at all?
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Deniz Merdano
1 month, 2 weeks ago
It's not that I haven't ridden the new bike all that much, but the fact that I rode the previous generation so long ago that I kind of forgot how it rides. I have a YouTube video of me riding it down Severed d and I remember it being very fun. The new bike builds up on that but doesn't feel entirely different, so far
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turd_alert
1 month, 2 weeks ago
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. After many emails back & forth with Noel, i decided to trust their recommendation & ordered a large frame. Trouble is, i haven't built it up yet because i still like riding my prev gen chilcotin so much!
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Deniz Merdano
1 month, 2 weeks ago
How tall are you and what are the geo numbers on your current bike?
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turd_alert
1 month, 1 week ago
6 foot but with short legs...like barely 30" inseam. currently on a large chilcotin 167.
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mutton
1 month, 2 weeks ago
Stoked Deniz. Will be watching for your review. I am currently riding a previous generation Chilcotin 159 and interested to hear your perspective on the new bike
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Sethimus
1 month, 2 weeks ago
is that new z1 with the old grip damper or the new gripx?
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Deniz Merdano
1 month, 2 weeks ago
There is a new grip damper? :)
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Sethimus
1 month, 1 week ago
4 apparently
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Brian Tuulos
1 month, 1 week ago
462 reach, 619 stack for a small is getting crazy. Shark has been jumped.
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Thomas Anderson
1 month ago
I was curious if you were able to dial in the suspension where it pedals a little better? The 155 is on my list of bikes to try here soon. I've in St George, UT and am currently on a Yeti SB130LR. I'm looking for a bike that is a little more confidence inspiring on the slow-tech chunky trails that we have here. The only worry I have is that most of the trails close enough for afternoon rides here require a bit more pedaling. I usually like hitting up the mesas on the weekends though. Any insights would be appreciated
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BarryW
1 month, 1 week ago
Interesting review Deniz.
A small at 5'8" huh? I get the idea it's your happy place, but could you be better serving your audience by riding the intended size? Not that it is your personal preference, but it's the bike the manufacturer thinks you'll be happiest riding right?
I also find it odd there is the complaint about the non-use of the Loam Depot, seems more like a wish list than a knock. And as, so, so many bikes would be much better protected by a rear fender is that even worth mentioning? Sometimes I see these type of complaints and it will vary completely based on where one rides. For me in Northwest Washington I choose to run a rear fender (MuckyNutz small, slightly modified to fit) and get literally zero mud on my shock or linkages. But in Arizona it just wouldn't matter...
Also, I see this bagging on Deore as if it offered 'lesser' shifting quality but in less I'm much mistaken even Shimano doesn't claim that. Heavier, fewer gears per click sure; but one is a price vs. weight vs. durability decision, the other a shifter away from identical performance.
I know I'm pedantic about details like this, but I believe it does a disservice to the audience to repeat incorrect information.
And personally I couldn't care any less about a straight off not top tube. But I find myself interested in Knolly bikes.
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Deniz Merdano
1 month, 1 week ago
We don't get to choose the size of the bikes we get to ride as often as you might think.
The Spectral I recently reviewed was a small, the Scor a medium and the instinct was a size large for dogs sake. The medium chilcotin that was my suggested size 3 years ago is now has grown disproportionately with my physical growth. Which is zero by the way. Why should my bike get bigger when I haven't myself?
So you bet your ass I choose a small that is far more suited to my standards to give the bike a better review opportunity instead of writing it off because it was too big to really have fun on it. Which again is the whole fucking point of all this... Fun.
I know Noel and most of the people at Knolly and they are all awesome, creative and interesting. I wish they embraced the weird more and filled that loam depot with something witty and fun. No i don't care for a fender there but many people I've talked to on the trails do and I can appreciate that.
I never knocked on the deore as it shifts beautifully but lacks the multi release that the xt amd xtr has. Heck, the deore on the knolly shifts heaps better than the xtr on the Instinct i just tried. So don't put words into my mouth. I Love the deore stuff to the moon and back.
Personally, i find our relationship abusive and manipulative, so I suggest you take time to know your reviewers before you come out with guns blazing.
Thank you
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BarryW
1 month, 1 week ago
"When you choose a bike with Deore level components, you make a certain statement. It can be that you just don't care about all the promised shifting quality"
"I never knocked on the deore as it shifts beautifully but lacks the multi release that the xt amd xtr has. Heck, the deore on the knolly shifts heaps better than the xtr on the Instinct i just tried. So don't put words into my mouth. I Love the deore stuff to the moon and back."
How do you square those two thoughts then? The one seems to negate the other to me.
As for sizing I do hear you that sometimes there isn't the option of any size you want to review. But it's a difficult thought that the maker is just wrong about sizing and so you pick a size (to them) that is incorrect to fit your preferences, and then form opinions about the bike not sized for you. Sure, bikes are larger than they used to be, and we aren't still growing, but this isn't a trend only happening in the far corners of the sport but very mainstream. To me it feels like reviewing a Porsche GT3 as a cross country car and then it being so so, when any of several different models would have been better. At least to the manufacturer.
"Personally, i find our relationship abusive and manipulative, so I suggest you take time to know your reviewers before you come out with guns blazing."
Really? In what way did I come out guns blazing? Are my questions too hard? My points too 'pointy'?
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Cam McRae
1 month, 1 week ago
Definitely qualifies as blazing when you tell an experienced reviewer what size he should be riding - and that the manufacturer knows better than he does.
But your guns generally blaze - for better or worse. Apparently it sounds different in your head but that’s okay too.
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BarryW
1 month, 1 week ago
I feel your pro-moped stance gets in the way of us having decent discussions Cam.
I said: "A small at 5'8" huh? I get the idea it's your happy place, but could you be better serving your audience by riding the intended size? Not that it is your personal preference, but it's the bike the manufacturer thinks you'll be happiest riding right?"
I asked a question regarding the manufacturers suggested sizing and Deniz's choice of size for review. Where exactly did I tell him I knew better?
And it's a fair question. When the people making it suggest a size and then someone reviews a different size based on their beliefs does that impact the perception of the bike?
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BarryW
1 month, 1 week ago
And yes, I'm dead certain the manufacturer does know bikes better.
😉
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Cam McRae
1 month, 1 week ago
And they probably know Deniz’s bodily dimensions and riding style better as well.
Do you think it makes sense for Deniz to ride the bike that he feels better on or worse, in a testing scenario?
BarryW
1 month, 1 week ago
@Cam
It is a question posed with the hope of meaningful discussion.
And not saying that some end user cannot size as they see fit, but wouldn't it reflect the bicycle being reviewed best by reviewing it in the recommended 'best' size?
^that is a question, not an accusation. And I'm honestly interested in a real answer. It just feels like whatever one's sizing preference might be put aside to review a bike as it was meant to be reviewed.
Cam McRae
1 month, 1 week ago
Here's all the information a bike manufacturer has about a prospective buyer choosing a size on their website:
- they have internet access
- they (hopefully) know their own height
Here's a small sample what a bike manufacturer doesn't know:
- years of riding experience
- riding terrain
- weight
- riding level
- riding style and preferences
- handlebar width
- physical dimensions like ape index or inseam (other than height + or - 10cm)
- fitness level
- range of motion (I used to ride smaller sizes before I worked on my flexibility)
- etc.
It's pretty clear that any recommended sizes provided by a manufacturer are merely guidelines or starting points. I'm also quite certain that nobody at Knolly would say, if you are 171cm tall you must ride a medium and if you are 169 you must ride a small and only those who are exactly 170cm can get a good experience by choosing either size, despite those dimensions being laid out on their website.
Based on all the information available to him, and based on his previous experiences on bikes with similar dimensions and on Knolly bikes in particular, Deniz consulted those guidelines and then made the choice that he felt would give him the best experience after taking his personal knowledge into consideration. If anything, this is the sort of thing every consumer should do, rather than using the cookie cutter approach that brands must use out of necessity. Some other brands have more overlap in their recommendations while Knolly uses cutoffs without any overlap, which seems to indicate, again, that these are only guidelines.
If anything, modelling this sort of selection process does a service to riders who are unsure if they should take these recommendations as gospel. Beyond that, based on reach numbers alone and without diving deeper, I would choose the medium for my 183cm height, having ridden and been less happy on bikes over 500mm reach. In fact I can't think of a time when I've seen a recommendation of over 500mm for someone my size, and certainly never as large as 513, but Knolly recommends this size for riders who are even shorter, at 180cm tall or 5'11". I'm not saying there aren't riders at that size who would choose a bike with 513mm reach, but I'd say they are rare. This is another indication that this graphic displayed on a website should be taken with a grain of salt. What Knolly calls a large in this instance, every other bike brand I can think of would label as XL based on reach numbers.
So yes, I think it's better that Deniz chose a size that would work best for him in order to evaluate a test bike rather than blindly relying on the manufacturer's recommendation.
Lu Kz
1 month, 1 week ago
For all the times I've made fun of Barry in the comments, I actually love Barry's blazing guns. He adds a significant amount of colour to the comments section, I'm always entertained. Am I willing to have an internet battle in the comments with him? No. Do I enjoy when others do? Hell yes. Would I go for a beer with him in real life? Absolutely. It would be a riot!
He has a unique ability to get a rise out of you guys better than anyone, and I've never had the impression its his intention either. Barry battles build character!
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BarryW
1 month, 1 week ago
Aw, I'll even buy the beer Lu Kz!
Couch_Surfer
1 month, 1 week ago
I came for the review, I stayed for the comments. :D
turd_alert
1 month, 1 week ago
hate to say it but i think i agree with barry on this one. are you doing a disservice to your readers by not riding the size they recommend? like, if the bike sucks in the size knolly thinks you should be riding, that's good information to know, for both the consumer and the brand
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Mike Ferrentino
1 month, 1 week ago
You could also look at it from the perspective of brands that are ditching S/M/L sizing language entirely because the geometry changes of the past several years have rendered that way of defining what size of bike to ride redundant for a good number of riders.
F'rinstance, Specialized has been rolling with S-sizing for a few years now, and encouraging riders to choose reach and cockpit dimensions that suit their riding style instead of steering them toward a given frame size based around their inseam. In that instance, it doesn't matter if a 6' rider wants to ride an S2; he/she chooses that size because it will be more jibby and fun for him/her. Same size rider who wants something more stable and composed at high speed might opt for an S4 or S5.
That may sound like confusing gibberish, but then again, when we contemplate that the current S/M/L paradigm is based on some arbitrary numbers that someone decided made sense while they themselves were still matching top tube lengths to seat tube lengths and calling it good. That way of designing bikes has not applied to mountain bikes for a couple decades now. Nobody is asking for a new 56cm Rocky Mountain Instinct. Because that would be pointless.
Sure, beginners might be confused. But more and more, mountain bikers are able to look at some measurements and decide what works for them, and are not going to be overly tied to what the generic size guidelines recommend. Sticking to some arcane sizing methodology when bike design itself is rapidly and dynamically evolving would be sorta like being a lifelong skier and insisting on the same length skis that your dad ran back in the 1970s because you're the same height as him.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds is no basis for a system of government..."
axle
1 month, 1 week ago
I also support Barry's pedantic-ness on this one, bike reviewers are about as pedantic as they come so it only seems fair that the comments are equally nit picky. However I am also with Deniz on his size choice, I am 6' tall and got this same bike in a Medium when I have never ridden a Medium in my life. Love the bike and would be curious to try a Large as per Knolly's recommendation, but I like to be able to throw a bike around and felt I would have more fun on a Med. What I would like to hear from Deniz is more detail on what specifically drove him to size outside of the manufacturer's recommendation, even if he is only 1" taller than 'recommended'.
Also, it doesn't matter if the size is called a M, L, XL, or 1,2,3,4 - Knolly's recommendations are problematic not because of the label but because they lack space for preference. Look at the Specialized Enduro recommendations, S2 is 5'2"-5'8", S3 is 5'5"-5'11", S4 is 5'8" to 6'2", S5 is 5'10"-6'4" - thats 3-4" overlap between each size. Knolly's new sizing puts riders who are used to being smack dab in the middle of a size now as in-betweeners, and now those people are acting like weiners :)
Mark
1 month, 1 week ago
I'm sitting here thinking don't say it, don't say it... and then I give in to temptation.
FWIW I think it's fair to ask someone about why they chose a specific size of bike, especially if it falls outside of what the manufacturer recommends. However, when an experienced rider gives a thoughtful answer as to why, that should probably be listened to even though the person asking (or the manufacturer) disagrees. There are a ton of factors that go into choosing what size bike to ride, for example you could get two people at the exact same height who chose different sizes due to things like leg length, torso length, arm length, should width and the varied combinations all those factors bring together. There's also preferred riding style and trail choice.
At the end of the day, the right size is what suits an individual, not the theoretical model that a bike is built around. That someone is smart enough to be aware of that and go outside the recommended size is a good thing, plus it can help others who may be on the cusp size wise a a better perspective on sizing.
Now the other thing I'm wondering is whether the value proposition of this bike is worth it over something a little older or used.
/s
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