2011 Turner DHR Review - REDUX
Believe the Hype?
Words by Tim Coleman. Photos by Cam McRae.
Date: 2011-12-30
* This article was originally published in May 2011. Tim Coleman's review of the Turner DHR resulted in one of the liveliest discussions of the year on our bulletin board, a discussion that spilled over into other places on the web as well.
The old Turner DHR frame was a privateer favourite, which over time developed quite the following. It looked great, was simple, dependable, easy to maintain, backed by legendary customer support and ripped up the race track. Any successor would have some big shoes to fill. In 2009 pictures started floating around of a new DW-Link DHR, and then by late 2009 prototypes started popping up. Turner kept the public well included through the lengthy design and test process, so when this bike was released for purchase late last year the fan boy salivation factor was cranked to 11. When Cam contacted me saying there was a new Turner DHR available for test I jumped at the opportunity.
The new DW-Link Turner DHR perched on Cypress Bowl.
The new Turner DHR is a complete redesign from the old frame and features Dave Weagle’s legendary DW Link suspension platform. Dave Weagle has designed the new DHR to utilize a “dual progressive shock rate” and “anti-squat”, although I can’t figure out why these characteristics are good for a DH bike. The new DHR sports some very aggressive geometry; highlights include a 63.3 degree head angle, 442 mm (17.4 inch) length chain stays and a 343 mm (13.5 inch) bottom bracket height. I really like some of the details on the new DHR. The shorter than normal 1.5 inch head tube gives the user a huge range of adjustability for bar height, and head set styles. The grease ports on the bearings are a nice touch that should enable the user to keep fresh grease around the pivot bearings. I like the slick little cable guides and cable routing in general. The entire frame is stiff laterally, which is impressive given how close all the pivots are. The new DHR is no feather weight but weighs in at a respectable 3583 grams (7.9 lbs) for a large frame without shock. I like the idea of the replaceable brake mount threads and shows Turner fully intends this new DHR to stand the test of time. For the most part the DHR is beautifully put together with top notch workmanship from the folks at SAPA. As far as design dislikes are concerned I think Turner should have included a rear fender ala Santa Cruz V10 to protect the very exposed rear shock. From reading some forums it seems that the upper link requires modification to fit certain shocks, which I think is a major design oversight. 
Aesthetics are always a personal thing. I quite like the somewhat industrial look of the new DHR. However some chamfers on those sharp CNC’d edges would be a welcome addition
The barrels in the rear brake post mounts are replaceable if damaged. Impressive attention to detail from Turner
The shock mount is CNC machined from billet and includes mounting for those nice cable mounting straps. With so much of the new DHR being sculpted by CNC machinery in the USA I can understand the price
I won’t be coy; this is an expensive piece of race kit. The frame and a Fox RC4 shock will set you back $3499 of your hard earned Canadian dollars. Complete bikes can be had for three prices points of $5799, $6499 and $6999 CDN. While the pricing isn’t cheap, you are buying some exclusivity in a small production run frame that is beautifully made in the USA. If you’re in the Vancouver area and interested in purchasing a Turner bicycle, the kind folks at Steed Cycles, Velocity or Secret Cycles can help you out. The big question is; when rubber hits dirt does the DHR cash the cheque its price tag will make you write?
The combination of a low bottom bracket height and a slack head angle inspires confidence when dropping into the steeps
Often I take new bikes for their first ride down Ned’s. Ned’s is a relatively high speed rocky trail that is rougher than Charlie Sheen on a relapse, which makes it a good spot for getting suspension dialled in. Unfortunately my first run down Ned’s on the DHR was about as fun as being stabbed. The Fox 40, which I’m sure needed a rebuild, made it feel like my hands were directly connected to the front wheel, and the rear end did little to improve the situation. The chain slap was louder than that pink and yellow TLD kit from last year, which brewed fear that I’d need another chain stay for lap 2. In an act of desperation to enjoy the new DHR I added some self adhesive Velcro to the stays and replaced the Fox 40 with my beloved 888.
On the steeps of Cypress I really enjoyed the DHR and felt comfortable hitting all my usual lines
The 888 significantly improved the absorption of bumps up front, but whenever I got the bike up to speed there was still a real harshness to the ride. Those that rode the bike and I were convinced that there was something wrong with the rear shock, it felt like the shock was spiking during the compression stroke. To ensure the Fox RC4 was working properly I tried it on another bike, which proved the shock was functioning flawlessly. I was using a 400 lb/inch spring, which was recommended by Turner, and is what I normally run on an 8 inch travel bike that uses a 3 inch stroke shock. In a parking lot (and on smooth trails) the DHR felt very plush. I looked at Dave Weagel’s set up suggestions and noticed that his recommendations were to substantially reduce the compression damping, lower the Boost Valve pressure to near minimum and maximize the Boost Valve volume. But still the DHR was harsher over high speed terrain than any of the DH bikes I’ve ridden recently.
The DHR approaching bottom out. With little separating the pedals and the trail at the best of times a softer spring wasn’t really an option
Despite the harshness to the ride I liked how lively and easy the DHR was to ride. At speed it felt nimbler than the geometry numbers would suggest. Of course when the speed dropped on the tighter more technical trails the DHR was a bit of a handful. Getting the most out of the new DHR required an aggressive body position with a heavy forward bias. When ridden properly the new DHR was a pleasure in the turns and was easy to push to the limit of traction. Due to the slack head angle and low bottom bracket height the DHR was easy to ride down steep technical terrain and inspired confidence. The DW-Link DHR pedalled exceptionally and may well be the best pedalling DH bike I’ve swung a leg over. Punch the pedals coming out of a turn and the DHR accelerates like a stabbed rat.
The new DHR required a really aggressive riding position to get it to turn properly, but when done right the bike rewarded you with biblical exit speed
The DHR was lively on the trail and begged to be taken airborne
This was a shorter than normal test. I only had the bike for a few weeks, so I can’t comment on the frames durability and I can’t profess that I got the bike completely dialled in. To conclude, positives are that the DW-Link DHR is beautifully assembled, pedals extremely well, is laterally very stiff, and has World Cup DH race geometry. However for the price I expect the bike to be near perfect, and it just isn’t. I disliked the harshness of the rear suspension, the chain slap, the lack of compatibility with all shocks, and the exposure of the rear shock to debris off the rear wheel. In the time I had the DHR I scoured forums for setup tips, swapped parts, applied Velcro, tried everything I could to get the most out of the bike, but walked away from every ride underwhelmed. The new DHR isn’t an awful bike and in the right (and likely tough) hands can be ridden very fast down a race course. However I’ve had more fun on just about every other bike I’ve ridden recently, and they were all were easier on the pocket book.
Classic Cypress on the new Turner DHR
Note:
On The Edge - the distributor of Turner in Canada - is shipping us a new rear shock and a fork to redo this test. The bike was a demo from Crankworx last summer and they are concerned that the shock may have had the wrong tune or it may have been faulty in some way. Stay tuned for more on this.
Have you ridden the DHR? Maybe you own one? Does your opinion mesh with Tim's? Tell it here...
Comments
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Posted by clownmitts at 10:34 PM on 05-31-2011
Glad I bought a Podium instead.
Glad I bought a Podium instead.
Posted by shonky at 11:00 PM on 05-31-2011
Good review Tim. Informative and entertaining, with just a hint of the legendary Tim's Opinion™.
Perhaps the Turner would have felt better with a 2010 Boxxer on it, so that the front and rear would feel matched.
Good review Tim. Informative and entertaining, with just a hint of the legendary Tim's Opinion™.
Perhaps the Turner would have felt better with a 2010 Boxxer on it, so that the front and rear would feel matched.
Posted by connor at 12:01 AM on 06-01-2011
told ya..
Quote:
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Originally Posted by clownmitts
(Post 2529075)
Glad I bought a Podium instead.
|
Posted by jimjam at 03:35 AM on 06-01-2011
It's surprising to read any actual critique of a bike of this price/hype much less a fairly harsh slating. Reviews like this restore my faith in bike journalism. A bit.
Well done.
It's surprising to read any actual critique of a bike of this price/hype much less a fairly harsh slating. Reviews like this restore my faith in bike journalism. A bit.
Well done.
Posted by honourablegeorge at 03:56 AM on 06-01-2011
I was thinking the same. Bad reviews are like hen's teeth. Good to see some honesty.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jimjam
(Post 2529131)
It's surprising to read any actual critique of a bike of this price/hype much less a fairly harsh slating. Reviews like this restore my faith in bike journalism. A bit.
Well done. |
Posted by Udi at 05:14 AM on 06-01-2011
A few questions to the reviewer:
- What is your weight with gear?
- What spring rate did you end up running (review suggested 400)?
- What were your final settings on the RC4 (LSC/HSC/REB/PSI/VOL)?
Not to discredit your review at all, but most people I have spoken to have rated the frame quite highly when it comes to how it feels through the rough, particularly square edges, so I was actually very surprised to read what you said.
I can actually sympathise with what you felt as I have experienced the same thing on certain setups myself, however I would strongly suspect that your problem may have been a function of the shock - possibly a defect of some sort. Trying it in a different frame with (presumably) a different leverage ratio or even curve is not really a relevant comparison, and a better idea might have been trying a different shock in the frame.
I'd be interested in hearing you elaborate on the topic.
Udi
A few questions to the reviewer:
- What is your weight with gear?
- What spring rate did you end up running (review suggested 400)?
- What were your final settings on the RC4 (LSC/HSC/REB/PSI/VOL)?
Not to discredit your review at all, but most people I have spoken to have rated the frame quite highly when it comes to how it feels through the rough, particularly square edges, so I was actually very surprised to read what you said.
I can actually sympathise with what you felt as I have experienced the same thing on certain setups myself, however I would strongly suspect that your problem may have been a function of the shock - possibly a defect of some sort. Trying it in a different frame with (presumably) a different leverage ratio or even curve is not really a relevant comparison, and a better idea might have been trying a different shock in the frame.
I'd be interested in hearing you elaborate on the topic.
Udi
Posted by craw at 08:07 AM on 06-01-2011
As someone who owned a 2001 RFX (possibly the best bike I ever owned), I have to say I'm generally underwhelmed with the Turners of today.
As someone considering a DW-equipped bike your review was surprisingly scathing, considering what other people say about the system.
Tim, do you think with more time you could have got the bike performing exactly as you wanted?
I'd like to hear more as well. Are there any DHR owners out there who could say a few words?
As someone who owned a 2001 RFX (possibly the best bike I ever owned), I have to say I'm generally underwhelmed with the Turners of today.
As someone considering a DW-equipped bike your review was surprisingly scathing, considering what other people say about the system.
Tim, do you think with more time you could have got the bike performing exactly as you wanted?
I'd like to hear more as well. Are there any DHR owners out there who could say a few words?
Posted by Chett at 08:07 AM on 06-01-2011
looks to me from the static pic of the shock and the almost fully compressed pic, that the DW link limits the stroke of the RC4 hence the tuning problem. I also think chain slap is inexcusable in todays tech. Nothing more annoying that spending 6K and hating the way it sounds. thoughts....
looks to me from the static pic of the shock and the almost fully compressed pic, that the DW link limits the stroke of the RC4 hence the tuning problem. I also think chain slap is inexcusable in todays tech. Nothing more annoying that spending 6K and hating the way it sounds. thoughts....
Posted by morgman at 08:19 AM on 06-01-2011
Not a question for Tim specifically... If the rear suspension doesn't act like other bikes, does it really have World Cup DH race geometry? Or would you think that the more efficient pedaling of this bike offsets that characteristic in a race situation?
Not a question for Tim specifically... If the rear suspension doesn't act like other bikes, does it really have World Cup DH race geometry? Or would you think that the more efficient pedaling of this bike offsets that characteristic in a race situation?
Posted by shoreboy at 08:42 AM on 06-01-2011
I wouldnt have thought that testing a DH race bike on the Shore would be a really good test of its intended purpose? Too bad there wasnt a chance to take it up to the WBP, I believe that would be closer to the intended niche for this bike (as most people dont actually use DHRs for racing it seems). Strange about the shock issues though, I am going to guess there was something amiss there....
I wouldnt have thought that testing a DH race bike on the Shore would be a really good test of its intended purpose? Too bad there wasnt a chance to take it up to the WBP, I believe that would be closer to the intended niche for this bike (as most people dont actually use DHRs for racing it seems). Strange about the shock issues though, I am going to guess there was something amiss there....
Posted by FlipFantasia at 09:41 AM on 06-01-2011
yeah, something doesn't seem right, not that I'm questioning Tim's issues with the frame/shock....I've seen a lot of these bikes around the bikepark and my impression has been that they are super quiet and plush...that being said, I haven't ridden one!
yeah, something doesn't seem right, not that I'm questioning Tim's issues with the frame/shock....I've seen a lot of these bikes around the bikepark and my impression has been that they are super quiet and plush...that being said, I haven't ridden one!
Posted by big-ted at 09:48 AM on 06-01-2011
Really Timmy? Sound familiar?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Udi
(Post 2529137)
Trying it in a different frame with (presumably) a different leverage ratio or even curve is not really a relevant comparison, and a better idea might have been trying a different shock in the frame.
|
Posted by Sharon at 09:52 AM on 06-01-2011
nice objective review tim!
WBP would have been a good test area, but Neds fits that bill pretty well as a DH testing ground.
nice objective review tim!
WBP would have been a good test area, but Neds fits that bill pretty well as a DH testing ground.
Posted by boomforeal at 09:53 AM on 06-01-2011
hey tim when you removed the rear shock from the dhr, how did the linkage feel? not sure if turner is still using bushings, but if so they can be easy to over-load and take some time to "loosen up". could also be that your shock had too high a compression tune for the suspension type. i don't claim to know much about suspension but it just seems crazy that you couldn't get the turner dialed - i would hazard to guess there was something wrong with the shock, spec or setup rather than the design of the bike (though if it was the case that a mis-functioning bike was provided for review, well, that says something too). great review though, as others have said its refreshing to read such a well written and thorough assessment rather than a thorough ass-kissing
hey tim when you removed the rear shock from the dhr, how did the linkage feel? not sure if turner is still using bushings, but if so they can be easy to over-load and take some time to "loosen up". could also be that your shock had too high a compression tune for the suspension type. i don't claim to know much about suspension but it just seems crazy that you couldn't get the turner dialed - i would hazard to guess there was something wrong with the shock, spec or setup rather than the design of the bike (though if it was the case that a mis-functioning bike was provided for review, well, that says something too). great review though, as others have said its refreshing to read such a well written and thorough assessment rather than a thorough ass-kissing
Posted by biggles604 at 10:03 AM on 06-01-2011
If the shock is provided with the frame and requires a special tune, then for the money, it should have the tuning right.
Tim also has a unique perspective, since he's riding the frame without having to spend money on it, therefore can be more objective. If I spent 6k on a bike, then I would force myself to like it, because facing the reality that you just spent 6k on a bike that is sub-par is hard to do.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by boomforeal
(Post 2529191)
could also be that your shock had too high a compression tune for the suspension type.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Udi
(Post 2529137)
Not to discredit your review at all, but most people I have spoken to have rated the frame quite highly when it comes to how it feels through the rough, particularly square edges, so I was actually very surprised to read what you said.
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Posted by boomforeal at 10:26 AM on 06-01-2011
oh definitely. but in my experience mis-spec's on early production and tester models aren't uncommon - just because whoever spec'd the bike should have got the tune right doesn't mean they did, and doesn't mean the tune couldn't be the culprit...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by biggles604
(Post 2529194)
If the shock is provided with the frame and requires a special tune, then for the money, it should have the tuning right.
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Posted by DaveM at 10:54 AM on 06-01-2011
Tim's a pretty picky and detailed oriented guy, particularly when it comes to suspension setup. I'd be very surprised if he didn't try everything available to get it sorted out.
Tim's a pretty picky and detailed oriented guy, particularly when it comes to suspension setup. I'd be very surprised if he didn't try everything available to get it sorted out.
Posted by Timmigrant at 11:03 AM on 06-01-2011
All great questions Udi. I weight just under 190lbs with all my gear on.
I used a 400lb spring for the entire test, which is what the distributor suggested I use.
My final settings on the DHR were; both HS and LS compression completely minimized, which is very close to DW's suggestion of -10 and -12 for HS and LS respectively. Boost Volume maximized, Boost pressure was 140 psig per DW's suggestions. Rebound I had dialed in to taste and don't recall where I had it, but I generally run my rebound fairly fast. Preload was essentially zero.
Here are some additional thoughts on the shock. I rode this shock and spring on another DH bike that uses the same dimension shock, and has very similar rear wheel travel (0.2" less), so average leverage rate was similar. The Fox RC4 functioned flawlessly in that frame, and a great shock as a side note. I could have tried a different shock in the DHR, but ultimately the Fox RC4 is the shock that the DHR was developed around and comes stock on the frame. It's possible that the DHR's "dual progressive leverage curve" was the cause of the harshness (and why the RC4 worked well in another frame), but then surely Turner would sell the frame with a shock to compliment the frame's characteristics.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Udi
(Post 2529137)
A few questions to the reviewer:
- What is your weight with gear? - What spring rate did you end up running (review suggested 400)? - What were your final settings on the RC4 (LSC/HSC/REB/PSI/VOL)? Not to discredit your review at all, but most people I have spoken to have rated the frame quite highly when it comes to how it feels through the rough, particularly square edges, so I was actually very surprised to read what you said. I can actually sympathise with what you felt as I have experienced the same thing on certain setups myself, however I would strongly suspect that your problem may have been a function of the shock - possibly a defect of some sort. Trying it in a different frame with (presumably) a different leverage ratio or even curve is not really a relevant comparison, and a better idea might have been trying a different shock in the frame. I'd be interested in hearing you elaborate on the topic. Udi |
I used a 400lb spring for the entire test, which is what the distributor suggested I use.
My final settings on the DHR were; both HS and LS compression completely minimized, which is very close to DW's suggestion of -10 and -12 for HS and LS respectively. Boost Volume maximized, Boost pressure was 140 psig per DW's suggestions. Rebound I had dialed in to taste and don't recall where I had it, but I generally run my rebound fairly fast. Preload was essentially zero.
Here are some additional thoughts on the shock. I rode this shock and spring on another DH bike that uses the same dimension shock, and has very similar rear wheel travel (0.2" less), so average leverage rate was similar. The Fox RC4 functioned flawlessly in that frame, and a great shock as a side note. I could have tried a different shock in the DHR, but ultimately the Fox RC4 is the shock that the DHR was developed around and comes stock on the frame. It's possible that the DHR's "dual progressive leverage curve" was the cause of the harshness (and why the RC4 worked well in another frame), but then surely Turner would sell the frame with a shock to compliment the frame's characteristics.
Posted by Bryan at 11:05 AM on 06-01-2011
or you could be sooo bitter as to dropping 6k on a bike that doesn't live up to your expectations, that it can be hard to see some of the good traits...
Curious as to how a different brand of shock would have worked on the DHR. The end of the Turner suspension is progressive from what I understand and the Fox shock has a natural progressive ramp up due to the large shaft it uses.
Would have been nice to try a CCBD in there.
edit. I see Timmy already answered some my post while I was typing this....wow Timmy your good.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by biggles604
(Post 2529194)
If I spent 6k on a bike, then I would force myself to like it, because facing the reality that you just spent 6k on a bike that is sub-par is hard to do.
|
Curious as to how a different brand of shock would have worked on the DHR. The end of the Turner suspension is progressive from what I understand and the Fox shock has a natural progressive ramp up due to the large shaft it uses.
Would have been nice to try a CCBD in there.
edit. I see Timmy already answered some my post while I was typing this....wow Timmy your good.
Posted by Timmigrant at 11:15 AM on 06-01-2011
That's tough to answer. I don't think I could get the bike to perform any better with the stock RC4. I spent a lot of time trying a wide range of adjustments on the RC4 and wound up very close to Dave Weagel's setup suggestions.
That said if this were my bike I would likely spend some money getting a custom tuned shock to somehow minimize the harshness over high speed bumps.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by craw
(Post 2529161)
Tim, do you think with more time you could have got the bike performing exactly as you wanted?
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That said if this were my bike I would likely spend some money getting a custom tuned shock to somehow minimize the harshness over high speed bumps.
Posted by roy at 11:17 AM on 06-01-2011
Now I don't race and i've never ridden a DW link bike but it seems to me that maybe super plush might not be the fastest way to get down the hill. If this is designed as an out and out race bike designed to do 5 min runs maybe thats how its supposed to ride? Did you do any timed runs against anything else? That would be interesting.
Now I don't race and i've never ridden a DW link bike but it seems to me that maybe super plush might not be the fastest way to get down the hill. If this is designed as an out and out race bike designed to do 5 min runs maybe thats how its supposed to ride? Did you do any timed runs against anything else? That would be interesting.
Posted by flume at 11:17 AM on 06-01-2011
I tested on at WBP on the demo days - I felt really uncomfortable on it, pretty similar to the review comments... pedaled great, really fast pedalling out of corners, but just felt sketchy. I thought is was because I was riding it crap (I probably still was)
I tested on at WBP on the demo days - I felt really uncomfortable on it, pretty similar to the review comments... pedaled great, really fast pedalling out of corners, but just felt sketchy. I thought is was because I was riding it crap (I probably still was)
Posted by boomforeal at 11:20 AM on 06-01-2011
does the rc4 come with a factory tune, like the rp23? given that it's supposed to be super adjustable i would think not. however my impression is that most people who run rp23's don't know that the shock has a factory compression and rebound (which can be adjusted, but the range of adjustment is pre-set) tune, so that's why i'm asking about the rc4. my banshee rune, which i bought second hand, came with an rp23 with a "firm" compression tune - i couldn't get it to feel or function properly, and when i contacted keith at banshee he told me that was a completely inappropriate tune for the rune... but it's what the bike came spec'd with
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Timmigrant
(Post 2529209)
Here are some additional thoughts on the shock. I rode this shock and spring on another DH bike that uses the same dimension shock, and has very similar rear wheel travel (0.2" less), so average leverage rate was similar. The Fox RC4 functioned flawlessly in that frame, and a great shock as a side note. I could have tried a different shock in the DHR, but ultimately the Fox RC4 is the shock that the DHR was developed around and comes stock on the frame. It's possible that the DHR's "dual progressive leverage curve" was the cause of the harshness (and why the RC4 worked well in another frame), but then surely Turner would sell the frame with a shock to compliment the frame's characteristics.
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Posted by NSTP at 11:32 AM on 06-01-2011
Not saying it is bad, but I am also surprised by this review. I know of a few people that have been very impressed by this bike that have had their fair share of bikes to compare it to. I also know of someone who has one, coming off an Iron Horse Sunday, that seems to like his Turner more in every respect. That Sunday is a plush bike, just without much bottom out resistance. Too bad you didn't get more time on the bike in various locations.
Not saying it is bad, but I am also surprised by this review. I know of a few people that have been very impressed by this bike that have had their fair share of bikes to compare it to. I also know of someone who has one, coming off an Iron Horse Sunday, that seems to like his Turner more in every respect. That Sunday is a plush bike, just without much bottom out resistance. Too bad you didn't get more time on the bike in various locations.
Posted by Timmigrant at 11:36 AM on 06-01-2011
I think the suspension dynamic and geometry are some what unrelated. The geometry refers to angles and lengths of the frame, and I think the geometry of the DHR is spot on for fast WC style DH tracks.
Tyler Morland has proved that the new DHR can be ridden down a race course very quickly. In a race situation you'd deal with the harshness of the rear end by unweighting the bike over rough terrain as much as possible, and since the DHR pedals so efficiency you will be able to accelerate out of corners very quickly.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by morgman
(Post 2529167)
Not a question for Tim specifically... If the rear suspension doesn't act like other bikes, does it really have World Cup DH race geometry? Or would you think that the more efficient pedaling of this bike offsets that characteristic in a race situation?
|
Tyler Morland has proved that the new DHR can be ridden down a race course very quickly. In a race situation you'd deal with the harshness of the rear end by unweighting the bike over rough terrain as much as possible, and since the DHR pedals so efficiency you will be able to accelerate out of corners very quickly.
Posted by Sparkplug at 11:53 AM on 06-01-2011
Great review Tim. This is a bike I am considering for next year and now I have some pointed questions for the people I know who are riding the DHRs and loving them.
Great review Tim. This is a bike I am considering for next year and now I have some pointed questions for the people I know who are riding the DHRs and loving them.
Posted by Timmigrant at 12:54 PM on 06-01-2011
Good questions. I suspected the same thing, so checked this right away. The linkage and rear end moved very smoothly.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by boomforeal
(Post 2529191)
hey tim when you removed the rear shock from the dhr, how did the linkage feel?
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Posted by northernstyle at 12:55 PM on 06-01-2011
I gotta agree with Tim on this one. I demo'd it up in whistler. They (Turner) spent a lot of time with me setting up the bike for my weight. On trails that I know like the back of my hand , I just couldn't get the bike to handle the fast rough stuff as well as my Glory or TR450. On small to medium hits the rear suspension just felt harsh. I went back to the tent after each run and expressed the concern over the suspension set up. I was supposedly on a shock designed for the bike. Because of its leverage curve making it progressive than linear than progressive ( as they explained it to me) it makes sense that it would feel a little harsh in the beginning but it was just not for me. Maybe a shock valved with bit less High Speed dampening would have helped. My revolt had a leverage curve very similar but was super smooth on pretty much everything.
My two cents
Mantelope
I gotta agree with Tim on this one. I demo'd it up in whistler. They (Turner) spent a lot of time with me setting up the bike for my weight. On trails that I know like the back of my hand , I just couldn't get the bike to handle the fast rough stuff as well as my Glory or TR450. On small to medium hits the rear suspension just felt harsh. I went back to the tent after each run and expressed the concern over the suspension set up. I was supposedly on a shock designed for the bike. Because of its leverage curve making it progressive than linear than progressive ( as they explained it to me) it makes sense that it would feel a little harsh in the beginning but it was just not for me. Maybe a shock valved with bit less High Speed dampening would have helped. My revolt had a leverage curve very similar but was super smooth on pretty much everything.
My two cents
Mantelope
Posted by RyanW at 01:16 PM on 06-01-2011
Another post backing up Tim's account here. I threw my leg over that very DHR for a lap down Cypress. While it wasn't a world cup DH track by any means, everything about the bike's suspension felt wrong. The fork definitely had bushing issues, which combined with the slack head angle made for a very harsh ride up front due to bushing friction.
As far as the rear suspension is concerned, I don't know what was going on back there, but it was mostly bad. Whether the shock had a problem, or was set-up improperly - it was definitely the harshest ride on a DH bike I've ever experienced. It felt very stiff initially, but I was easily using all the travel as well. Not a good combo. The only good thing I could say about this bike was that it seemed to pedal really well, especially when accelerating out of corners.
If the problems were in the set-up, that's still utterly unacceptable. It's a demo bike being used to write a review for pete's sake - make sure the damn thing is 'effing perfect!! Especially when it's coming in at that price point!
Considering the state of that particular bike, I found Tim's review to be quite generous.
Another post backing up Tim's account here. I threw my leg over that very DHR for a lap down Cypress. While it wasn't a world cup DH track by any means, everything about the bike's suspension felt wrong. The fork definitely had bushing issues, which combined with the slack head angle made for a very harsh ride up front due to bushing friction.
As far as the rear suspension is concerned, I don't know what was going on back there, but it was mostly bad. Whether the shock had a problem, or was set-up improperly - it was definitely the harshest ride on a DH bike I've ever experienced. It felt very stiff initially, but I was easily using all the travel as well. Not a good combo. The only good thing I could say about this bike was that it seemed to pedal really well, especially when accelerating out of corners.
If the problems were in the set-up, that's still utterly unacceptable. It's a demo bike being used to write a review for pete's sake - make sure the damn thing is 'effing perfect!! Especially when it's coming in at that price point!
Considering the state of that particular bike, I found Tim's review to be quite generous.
Posted by big-ted at 01:18 PM on 06-01-2011
I can't not chime in here.
I have to say, I got to spend a bit of time on this bike whilst Tim was reviewing it, and I was also present for many of Tim's comments/thoughts on it. I agree with everything Tim said. We tried a wide range of suspension setups, but could never get it to stop feeling harsh over high speed stuff, to the point you could feel the back end breaking away as the rear tire simply wasn't tracking the ground as one would expect. However, I will say this. I got the definite impression Tim wanted to dislike this bike. When things didn't improve after several days of tuning I suggested trying any one of several shocks we have amongst our usual riding crew. Indeed, both Tim and I have access to Double Barrels which have a sufficiently wide tuning range that the same factory internal build can be made to work on pretty much any bike out there. Tim didn't seem interested in trying this though and, as a result, I feel a faulty shock/incorrect tune was never truly eliminated from the equation.
It doesn't bode well that it seems others have had similar experiences with this bike but, still, the bike-geek in me would still like to try a Double Barrel in there, if only for the sake of proper scientific method.
I can't not chime in here.
I have to say, I got to spend a bit of time on this bike whilst Tim was reviewing it, and I was also present for many of Tim's comments/thoughts on it. I agree with everything Tim said. We tried a wide range of suspension setups, but could never get it to stop feeling harsh over high speed stuff, to the point you could feel the back end breaking away as the rear tire simply wasn't tracking the ground as one would expect. However, I will say this. I got the definite impression Tim wanted to dislike this bike. When things didn't improve after several days of tuning I suggested trying any one of several shocks we have amongst our usual riding crew. Indeed, both Tim and I have access to Double Barrels which have a sufficiently wide tuning range that the same factory internal build can be made to work on pretty much any bike out there. Tim didn't seem interested in trying this though and, as a result, I feel a faulty shock/incorrect tune was never truly eliminated from the equation.
It doesn't bode well that it seems others have had similar experiences with this bike but, still, the bike-geek in me would still like to try a Double Barrel in there, if only for the sake of proper scientific method.
Posted by Sharon at 02:54 PM on 06-01-2011
most experienced riders get a pretty good first impression of a bike. If this bike came with a stock set up and Tim couldn't 'find the love' how much time should he spend switching things around? If you only have so much time on a bike, there is only so much you can do.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by big-ted
(Post 2529270)
I got the definite impression Tim wanted to dislike this bike. When things didn't improve after several days of tuning I suggested trying any one of several shocks we have amongst our usual riding crew. Indeed, both Tim and I have access to Double Barrels which have a sufficiently wide tuning range that the same factory internal build can be made to work on pretty much any bike out there. Tim didn't seem interested in trying this though and, as a result, I feel a faulty shock/incorrect tune was never truly eliminated from the equation.
It doesn't bode well that it seems others have had similar experiences with this bike but, still, the bike-geek in me would still like to try a Double Barrel in there, if only for the sake of proper scientific method. |
Posted by Kevin_m31 at 03:36 PM on 06-01-2011
If someone who is in fact competent in suspension setup can't get it close within a handful of rides then wouldn't that be considered a fault anyway?
He put on a familiar fork and made a significant effort to try to tune the setup and couldn't get a happy ending. For 6000$ I'd consider that a fail.
If someone who is in fact competent in suspension setup can't get it close within a handful of rides then wouldn't that be considered a fault anyway?
He put on a familiar fork and made a significant effort to try to tune the setup and couldn't get a happy ending. For 6000$ I'd consider that a fail.
Posted by clownmitts at 04:24 PM on 06-01-2011
I'm glad to see someone in the mountain biking community has the courage to write a critical review of a product. The general state of mountain biking journalism is pathetic. Take a look Bike Magazine's bible of bike tests which, to the uncritical and uninformed eye, is about as milquetoast in its critique as say, a new york times theatre critic at a christmas play put on by 3 year olds.
Serious money is being thrown around in this market and it is increasingly difficult to obtain information on the quality of products. God knows we don't need any more pseudo reviews from people with the intention of generating market exposure.
I'm glad to see someone in the mountain biking community has the courage to write a critical review of a product. The general state of mountain biking journalism is pathetic. Take a look Bike Magazine's bible of bike tests which, to the uncritical and uninformed eye, is about as milquetoast in its critique as say, a new york times theatre critic at a christmas play put on by 3 year olds.
Serious money is being thrown around in this market and it is increasingly difficult to obtain information on the quality of products. God knows we don't need any more pseudo reviews from people with the intention of generating market exposure.
Posted by Timmigrant at 05:00 PM on 06-01-2011
I'm not sure why you'd comment that I wanted to dislike the DHR. I stand nothing to gain by writing a critical review of the DHR and have no hidden agenda. The others in here that have ridden the new DHR and had similar experiences only further reinforce that what I've written is open and honest.
I have some additional thoughts and questions regarding the shock. How can the shock have been faulty if it worked fantastically in another bike with almost exactly the same average leverage ratio? This also leads me to believe that the tune on that particular RC4 was very applicable for the DHR's average leverage ratio. Reviewing the DHR with the Double Barrel makes little sense to me when the frame kit and bike builds are all spec'd with the RC4. If the DHR worked substantially better with the Double Barrel why would Turner not have spec'd that shock instead ... the prices of the two shocks are very similar are they not?
On a related note I really appreciated the vast majority of comments in here, cheers for being a mature, classy and intelligent group (even those that didn't necessarily agree with my experiences). I was worried about the general reaction to a critical review of a product that has what seems to be a large positive following. I shall be less fearful of writing candid critical reviews in the future. Cheers.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by big-ted
(Post 2529270)
I got the definite impression Tim wanted to dislike this bike. When things didn't improve after several days of tuning I suggested trying any one of several shocks we have amongst our usual riding crew. Indeed, both Tim and I have access to Double Barrels which have a sufficiently wide tuning range that the same factory internal build can be made to work on pretty much any bike out there. Tim didn't seem interested in trying this though and, as a result, I feel a faulty shock/incorrect tune was never truly eliminated from the equation.
It doesn't bode well that it seems others have had similar experiences with this bike but, still, the bike-geek in me would still like to try a Double Barrel in there, if only for the sake of proper scientific method. |
I have some additional thoughts and questions regarding the shock. How can the shock have been faulty if it worked fantastically in another bike with almost exactly the same average leverage ratio? This also leads me to believe that the tune on that particular RC4 was very applicable for the DHR's average leverage ratio. Reviewing the DHR with the Double Barrel makes little sense to me when the frame kit and bike builds are all spec'd with the RC4. If the DHR worked substantially better with the Double Barrel why would Turner not have spec'd that shock instead ... the prices of the two shocks are very similar are they not?
On a related note I really appreciated the vast majority of comments in here, cheers for being a mature, classy and intelligent group (even those that didn't necessarily agree with my experiences). I was worried about the general reaction to a critical review of a product that has what seems to be a large positive following. I shall be less fearful of writing candid critical reviews in the future. Cheers.
Posted by DaveM at 05:07 PM on 06-01-2011
^^^ I agree 100%
A bike test should be as the bike is sold. Putting a shock that isn't available as an option from the manufacturer isn't providing a review on the bike.
nice job Tim.
^^^ I agree 100%
A bike test should be as the bike is sold. Putting a shock that isn't available as an option from the manufacturer isn't providing a review on the bike.
nice job Tim.
Posted by syncro at 05:25 PM on 06-01-2011
i also agree 100%
i'm not a fussy guy when it comes to my bikes, more of a quit yer bitching about any of the fine points and just fucking ride the damn bike. i also haven't ridden a wide variety of platforms so i'm not really one to say what type of design works the best.
that said, if a guy has to swap to a different type of shock than what the bike comes spec'd with to get it to ride nice then someone on the design end pooped the bed. there is absolutely no f'ing way that you should need to start swapping out rear shocks or other components on a $6000 plus bike to get it to work well.
that's a major fail imo.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DaveM
(Post 2529353)
^^^ I agree 100%
A bike test should be as the bike is sold. Putting a shock that isn't available as an option from the manufacturer isn't providing a review on the bike. nice job Tim. |
i also agree 100%
i'm not a fussy guy when it comes to my bikes, more of a quit yer bitching about any of the fine points and just fucking ride the damn bike. i also haven't ridden a wide variety of platforms so i'm not really one to say what type of design works the best.
that said, if a guy has to swap to a different type of shock than what the bike comes spec'd with to get it to ride nice then someone on the design end pooped the bed. there is absolutely no f'ing way that you should need to start swapping out rear shocks or other components on a $6000 plus bike to get it to work well.
that's a major fail imo.
Posted by clarklewis at 05:51 PM on 06-01-2011
only turner i've ridden was a 2008 RFX for a week in moab. good bike.
there's certainly a LOT of hype around the turner brand (among others).
sounds like tim covered his bases and has explained everything very well.
tim, would you say you prefer a little less compression damping overall than most people? i just wonder since you seem to really like marzocchi forks (maybe why you hated the generally higher-damped 40). maybe same goes for this frame - those who prefer a firmer-feeling bike might like it more?
having said that, when you're backing all compression damping off completely and it still feels harsh, something is obviously wrong.
only turner i've ridden was a 2008 RFX for a week in moab. good bike.
there's certainly a LOT of hype around the turner brand (among others).
sounds like tim covered his bases and has explained everything very well.
tim, would you say you prefer a little less compression damping overall than most people? i just wonder since you seem to really like marzocchi forks (maybe why you hated the generally higher-damped 40). maybe same goes for this frame - those who prefer a firmer-feeling bike might like it more?
having said that, when you're backing all compression damping off completely and it still feels harsh, something is obviously wrong.
Posted by FullMonty at 07:18 PM on 06-01-2011
I had a similar thought, since Timmay is well known for his FSR love (although I seem to recall him having a recent affair with some ABP love).
Here's yer leverage curve if you want to do some internet engineering.
http://images.ridemonkey.com/index.p...lev_turner.jpg
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by clarklewis
(Post 2529367)
tim, would you say you prefer a little less compression damping overall than most people? i just wonder since you seem to really like marzocchi forks (maybe why you hated the generally higher-damped 40). maybe same goes for this frame - those who prefer a firmer-feeling bike might like it more?
having said that, when you're backing all compression damping off completely and it still feels harsh, something is obviously wrong. |
Here's yer leverage curve if you want to do some internet engineering.
http://images.ridemonkey.com/index.p...lev_turner.jpg
Posted by JCL at 07:23 PM on 06-01-2011
Average leverage ratio isn't really an indicator though Tim. Many DH bikes have fairly flat falling leverage ratios making shock set-up easy. Weagle is known for doing funky things with rates which is cool but it does mean the shock set-up/spring rate needs to be exactly as intended. Not saying you didn't get right. Maybe the you just didn't like the 'feel' the leverage rate change gives?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Timmigrant
(Post 2529347)
I have some additional thoughts and questions regarding the shock. How can the shock have been faulty if it worked fantastically in another bike with almost exactly the same average leverage ratio? This also leads me to believe that the tune on that particular RC4 was very applicable for the DHR's average leverage ratio. Reviewing the DHR with the Double Barrel makes little sense to me when the frame kit and bike builds are all spec'd with the RC4. If the DHR worked substantially better with the Double Barrel why would Turner not have spec'd that shock instead ... the prices of the two shocks are very similar are they not?
|
Posted by morgman at 07:57 PM on 06-01-2011
I guess that's where my question was pointed: does a fast race bike make a good everyday bike?
In my opinion, suspension dynamic and geometry are correlated, as a bike that sags more will give the feeling of a slacker head angle and as a result the bike will plow chunder more easily. In your description of the DHR's suspension dynamic, it seems the bike isn't using the travel in the way you'd prefer a DH bike do (that is: more sag), while it does pedal well. Maybe this means it does better in race situations?
Good review that has sparked good discussion. Win.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Timmigrant
(Post 2529221)
I think the suspension dynamic and geometry are some what unrelated. The geometry refers to angles and lengths of the frame, and I think the geometry of the DHR is spot on for fast WC style DH tracks.
Tyler Morland has proved that the new DHR can be ridden down a race course very quickly. In a race situation you'd deal with the harshness of the rear end by unweighting the bike over rough terrain as much as possible, and since the DHR pedals so efficiency you will be able to accelerate out of corners very quickly. |
In my opinion, suspension dynamic and geometry are correlated, as a bike that sags more will give the feeling of a slacker head angle and as a result the bike will plow chunder more easily. In your description of the DHR's suspension dynamic, it seems the bike isn't using the travel in the way you'd prefer a DH bike do (that is: more sag), while it does pedal well. Maybe this means it does better in race situations?
Good review that has sparked good discussion. Win.
Posted by Timmigrant at 08:24 PM on 06-01-2011
You bring up a good point Clark. I do like my suspension on the suppler side, and always have. That said I don't feel like the DHR offered up a "firmer" ride per say. I sagged into the travel a significant amount, and the minimal compression damping meant the DHR went through it's travel with ease.
Also Clark I quite like the 40. I've ridden a number 40s that I thought were superb. One of the most dialed in bikes I've ridden to date was Luke Kitsanuk's older Glory that had a James-ified 40 and DHX 5.0. My only gripe with the 40 is the regular maintenance required to keep the fork feeling sweet. I'm fairly sure the 40 that came on the test bike was in need of a service. Tossing on the 888 was just easier than doing a service on the 40.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by clarklewis
(Post 2529367)
only turner i've ridden was a 2008 RFX for a week in moab. good bike.
there's certainly a LOT of hype around the turner brand (among others). sounds like tim covered his bases and has explained everything very well. tim, would you say you prefer a little less compression damping overall than most people? i just wonder since you seem to really like marzocchi forks (maybe why you hated the generally higher-damped 40). maybe same goes for this frame - those who prefer a firmer-feeling bike might like it more? having said that, when you're backing all compression damping off completely and it still feels harsh, something is obviously wrong. |
Also Clark I quite like the 40. I've ridden a number 40s that I thought were superb. One of the most dialed in bikes I've ridden to date was Luke Kitsanuk's older Glory that had a James-ified 40 and DHX 5.0. My only gripe with the 40 is the regular maintenance required to keep the fork feeling sweet. I'm fairly sure the 40 that came on the test bike was in need of a service. Tossing on the 888 was just easier than doing a service on the 40.
Posted by syngltrkmnd at 09:13 PM on 06-01-2011
Great discussion here. I don't have much to add, but I am wondering how this whip made it into the demo fleet in the condition it is apparently in. Also, Tim, would you say your opinion of this would be any different if you were interested solely in competition? While I too prefer more supple squish, if I was *only* racing, I might not be as concerned. To that end, can you point out a few other bikes in this range that behave more to your liking? V10? Podium? Wilson? the recently-departed El Cuervo? It might better inform Turner fanboys to look elsewhere with their wad of dough.
Great discussion here. I don't have much to add, but I am wondering how this whip made it into the demo fleet in the condition it is apparently in. Also, Tim, would you say your opinion of this would be any different if you were interested solely in competition? While I too prefer more supple squish, if I was *only* racing, I might not be as concerned. To that end, can you point out a few other bikes in this range that behave more to your liking? V10? Podium? Wilson? the recently-departed El Cuervo? It might better inform Turner fanboys to look elsewhere with their wad of dough.
Posted by Freerider Forever at 10:02 PM on 06-01-2011
My first ride on a dw DHR was at Interbike last year. I was appalled at the condition of the demo fleet, DHR included. The fork had zero oil in it, super sticky, bushings shot, rear shock was totally hosed, and the bike in general was poorly maintained. I think they had just come from a demo in Utah, and had not been overhauled. In Turner's defense, I'm sure its. I took the bike on the main DH run at Bootleg, and it was definitely hard to ride the bike objectively given its condition. I definitely did not feel the bike lived up to its reputation at that point, but I also understand that without properly tuned and maintained suspension, any bike will feel like garbage. If the DHR in this review is one of these demo bikes, then I believe every word written.
That being said, I went ahead and bought a DHR for myself a couple months later because I knew it would be a bike that would fit my riding style, and I've always loved dw link. The first ride on my new DHR was mind bendingly amazing. It felt like I'd been riding the bike for 10 years...it really was like an old pal right off the bat. I did have a little trouble tuning the RC4 for my weight, and in the end, I ended up ditching it getting a CCDB which was a great decision. The Double Barrel truly unleashed the potential of this bike. The bike absolutely flies over fast bumps, and eats up square edge hits like nothing. I am actually slightly scared to see just how fast this bike goes...it definitely begs you to take it to the limit, which I have not found yet. I was also very impressed with how quiet the bike is. People in front of have no idea I'm behind them because they cannot hear me coming. I put on a simple chainstay wrap, and a short wrap around the seatstay, and that does the trick.
I was quite surprised to read this review on the DHR, as it is essentially the complete opposite of my experience with the bike (other than my first ride on it at Interbike). Even with the RC4, under no circumstance would I have characterized it as a harsh ride. There are a ton of DH trails where I live, with a wide variety of conditions. Rocks, roots, steeps, big hits, jumps, etc...I've taken the bike through it's paces, and I've been impressed at all turns. It's coming with me to Whistler this weekend, so that will be another good test.
I have spoken with LJ at Turner at length about shock options for this bike. I think it would be a great option to offer the DHR with a Double Barrel. The RC4 is good, but the Double Barrel is better. It's adjustability and tuning options make it the clear choice to me, no matter what the bike. And it seems Cane Creek is willing to work out some great deals in the industry, so I don't see why it shouldn't be an option. Look at the M9, it comes with a CCDB and an Angleset for $2999. Turner has taken it under consideration, so hopefully we see this option in the future.
For those considering a DHR, I wouldn't write it off just yet. There are three people including myself riding these bikes in my area, and everyone is bringing back rave reviews. I've spoken with several people all over the country who also give glowing feedback. It just doesn't fit that the DHR reviewed here got such a bad wrap. I can certainly appreciate honest reviews, but something definitely seems amiss.
My first ride on a dw DHR was at Interbike last year. I was appalled at the condition of the demo fleet, DHR included. The fork had zero oil in it, super sticky, bushings shot, rear shock was totally hosed, and the bike in general was poorly maintained. I think they had just come from a demo in Utah, and had not been overhauled. In Turner's defense, I'm sure its. I took the bike on the main DH run at Bootleg, and it was definitely hard to ride the bike objectively given its condition. I definitely did not feel the bike lived up to its reputation at that point, but I also understand that without properly tuned and maintained suspension, any bike will feel like garbage. If the DHR in this review is one of these demo bikes, then I believe every word written.
That being said, I went ahead and bought a DHR for myself a couple months later because I knew it would be a bike that would fit my riding style, and I've always loved dw link. The first ride on my new DHR was mind bendingly amazing. It felt like I'd been riding the bike for 10 years...it really was like an old pal right off the bat. I did have a little trouble tuning the RC4 for my weight, and in the end, I ended up ditching it getting a CCDB which was a great decision. The Double Barrel truly unleashed the potential of this bike. The bike absolutely flies over fast bumps, and eats up square edge hits like nothing. I am actually slightly scared to see just how fast this bike goes...it definitely begs you to take it to the limit, which I have not found yet. I was also very impressed with how quiet the bike is. People in front of have no idea I'm behind them because they cannot hear me coming. I put on a simple chainstay wrap, and a short wrap around the seatstay, and that does the trick.
I was quite surprised to read this review on the DHR, as it is essentially the complete opposite of my experience with the bike (other than my first ride on it at Interbike). Even with the RC4, under no circumstance would I have characterized it as a harsh ride. There are a ton of DH trails where I live, with a wide variety of conditions. Rocks, roots, steeps, big hits, jumps, etc...I've taken the bike through it's paces, and I've been impressed at all turns. It's coming with me to Whistler this weekend, so that will be another good test.
I have spoken with LJ at Turner at length about shock options for this bike. I think it would be a great option to offer the DHR with a Double Barrel. The RC4 is good, but the Double Barrel is better. It's adjustability and tuning options make it the clear choice to me, no matter what the bike. And it seems Cane Creek is willing to work out some great deals in the industry, so I don't see why it shouldn't be an option. Look at the M9, it comes with a CCDB and an Angleset for $2999. Turner has taken it under consideration, so hopefully we see this option in the future.
For those considering a DHR, I wouldn't write it off just yet. There are three people including myself riding these bikes in my area, and everyone is bringing back rave reviews. I've spoken with several people all over the country who also give glowing feedback. It just doesn't fit that the DHR reviewed here got such a bad wrap. I can certainly appreciate honest reviews, but something definitely seems amiss.
Posted by DaveM at 10:14 PM on 06-01-2011
I must say that I'm curious who provided the bike for a review, and why, knowing it was being provided for a review didn't ensure it was properly serviced and ready to go. A few hours at Suspensionwerx could have resulted in a polar opposite review.
I must say that I'm curious who provided the bike for a review, and why, knowing it was being provided for a review didn't ensure it was properly serviced and ready to go. A few hours at Suspensionwerx could have resulted in a polar opposite review.
Posted by big-ted at 10:26 PM on 06-01-2011
This. Different rising/falling rates can easily require a different shock tune and/or mask a faulty shock. You still have no idea if that RC4 was actually functioning as intended on that bike and, bearing in mind the state of the fork, it's not outside the realm of possibility that it was roached. It still blows my mind that, given the availability of other shocks and the ease with which it could be switched, you refused to eliminate this from the equation.
Agreed. But Tim just wrote a pretty scathing review of what is widely regarded as one of the best products of it's kind. What's more, I agreed with his comments. My point is that I, as any decent reviewer would be, was curious as to why my experiences differ so wildly from popular opinion. The review process should have been:
Bike sucks -> Tune in suspension.
Bike still sucks? -> try different shock.
Bike feels good? -> Determine if shock provided is functioning correctly and truly that intended for the bike. If so, write scathing review, but point out improvements with different shock. If bike still sucks after trying different shock then sure, go ahead and write scathing review anyway.
I'm not going to call you out on here, but you know I wasn't impressed with how you approached this review. I'll leave it there.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by JCL
(Post 2529409)
Average leverage ratio isn't really an indicator though Tim. Many DH bikes have fairly flat falling leverage ratios making shock set-up easy. Weagle is known for doing funky things with rates which is cool but it does mean the shock set-up/spring rate needs to be exactly as intended. Not saying you didn't get right. Maybe the you just didn't like the 'feel' the leverage rate change gives?
|
Quote:
|
A bike test should be as the bike is sold. Putting a shock that isn't available as an option from the manufacturer isn't providing a review on the bike. |
Bike sucks -> Tune in suspension.
Bike still sucks? -> try different shock.
Bike feels good? -> Determine if shock provided is functioning correctly and truly that intended for the bike. If so, write scathing review, but point out improvements with different shock. If bike still sucks after trying different shock then sure, go ahead and write scathing review anyway.
Quote:
|
I'm not sure why you'd comment that I wanted to dislike the DHR. I stand nothing to gain by writing a critical review of the DHR and have no hidden agenda. The others in here that have ridden the new DHR and had similar experiences only further reinforce that what I've written is open and honest. |
Posted by M@M at 10:40 PM on 06-01-2011
Call me crazy and basing alot on appearances, but the first thing I noticed was the mismatched wheels. I thought to myself "is this a review of a cobbled together bike?"
Call me crazy and basing alot on appearances, but the first thing I noticed was the mismatched wheels. I thought to myself "is this a review of a cobbled together bike?"
Posted by Bryan at 10:45 PM on 06-01-2011
I think you're just pissed because you couldn't talk Tim into buying the shock in your sig....lol.
I think a bike should work as sold, but to write it off without attempting to figure out what exactly was the issue seems a little lacking. I've read more than a few reviews that the product tester or testers did so and claimed it in their review.
Curious as to why Tim was willing to swap out the fork(although it did happen to be Marz product,lol) yet was reluctant swap out the shock? Seems swapping the shock would be as easy or easier than swapping the fork.
side note, Don't take offence Tim as I'm not trying to put a negative spin on your review.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by big-ted
(Post 2529489)
given the availability of other shocks and the ease with which it could be switched, you refused to eliminate this from the equation.
|
I think a bike should work as sold, but to write it off without attempting to figure out what exactly was the issue seems a little lacking. I've read more than a few reviews that the product tester or testers did so and claimed it in their review.
Curious as to why Tim was willing to swap out the fork(although it did happen to be Marz product,lol) yet was reluctant swap out the shock? Seems swapping the shock would be as easy or easier than swapping the fork.
side note, Don't take offence Tim as I'm not trying to put a negative spin on your review.
Posted by connor at 11:40 PM on 06-01-2011
does a Roco not fit?
"From reading some forums it seems that the upper link requires modification to fit certain shocks, which I think is a major design oversight. "
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Bryan
(Post 2529499)
I think you're just pissed because you couldn't talk Tim into buying the shock in your sig....lol.
I think a bike should work as sold, but to write it off without attempting to figure out what exactly was the issue seems a little lacking. I've read more than a few reviews that the product tester or testers did so and claimed it in their review. Curious as to why Tim was willing to swap out the fork(although it did happen to be Marz product,lol) yet was reluctant swap out the shock? Seems swapping the shock would be as easy or easier than swapping the fork. side note, Don't take offence Tim as I'm not trying to put a negative spin on your review. |
"From reading some forums it seems that the upper link requires modification to fit certain shocks, which I think is a major design oversight. "
Posted by JCL at 11:41 PM on 06-01-2011
Well it looks like your reviewing days are over Tim LOL!
;)
It also may or may not be worth contacting Dave Weagle for his take on things? He's often on the RM forum and I'm sure would have an opinion here.
Well it looks like your reviewing days are over Tim LOL!
;)
It also may or may not be worth contacting Dave Weagle for his take on things? He's often on the RM forum and I'm sure would have an opinion here.
Posted by walleater at 08:23 AM on 06-02-2011
Who cares about all this boring crap....what's it like for skidz and wheelies?
Who cares about all this boring crap....what's it like for skidz and wheelies?
Posted by syngltrkmnd at 08:26 AM on 06-02-2011
I can't help but call this out:
The return of the hyperbolic BIKE mag bible review!
That is all.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Freerider Forever
(Post 2529481)
My first ride on a dw DHR was at Interbike last year. I was appalled at the condition of the demo fleet, DHR included. ...
That being said, I went ahead and bought a DHR for myself a couple months later .. I've always loved dw link. The first ride on my new DHR was mind bendingly amazing. ... ... For those considering a DHR, I wouldn't write it off just yet. There are three people including myself riding these bikes in my area, and everyone is bringing back rave reviews. .. several people all over the country who also give glowing feedback. ... |
The return of the hyperbolic BIKE mag bible review!
That is all.
Posted by roy at 08:50 AM on 06-02-2011
for skidz, i'm sure its fine on surfaced roads, but any sort of gravel surface, that dual progressive shock is going to kick your ass!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by walleater
(Post 2529562)
Who cares about all this boring crap....what's it like for skidz and wheelies?
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Posted by Timmigrant at 09:07 AM on 06-02-2011
No offence taken, good questions. I swapped the fork since the review was of the frame and not the bike as a whole. I could have had the fork serviced, but I only had the bike for a month, and throwing on my 888 just seemed easier. Swapping the shock certainly would have been easy, and I had some other shocks on hand, but felt the frame should be reviewed as it is sold. I think I took steps to ensure the RC4 that came with the frame functioned properly, and continued reviewing the DHR accordingly.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bryan
(Post 2529499)
Curious as to why Tim was willing to swap out the fork(although it did happen to be Marz product,lol) yet was reluctant swap out the shock? Seems swapping the shock would be as easy or easier than swapping the fork.
side note, Don't take offence Tim as I'm not trying to put a negative spin on your review. |
Posted by Timmigrant at 09:09 AM on 06-02-2011
Roco fits just fine. From what I understand just the Vivid Air and some heavier Vivid coil springs don't fit without modification to the upper link.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by connor
(Post 2529512)
does a Roco not fit?
"From reading some forums it seems that the upper link requires modification to fit certain shocks, which I think is a major design oversight. " |
Posted by J-Kwon at 10:03 AM on 06-02-2011
i read the review, and while it is honest, i think it lacks in few areas.
1. your riding style may not suit others(you admit you like it more plush than others), it would have been better if there were multiple riders with input. But given the time limit, it's not solely your fault. I ride my bike with almost all compression on, so who knows. There are people in this thread that shared the same outlook of the harsheness, but it seems that they consist mostly of people who were on demo bikes. One person who actually owned it for a long time seems to differ in opinion.
Seemed in the review that, because of the geometry of the bike, it made you ride more forward biased? Is that something you aren't used to, or aren't fastest at riding? How would people who may ride more front biased perform on this bike? Could this contribute to the harshness in the rear?
2. As others pointed out, you should have switched the rear shock out, especially if you had them available. You are right, you're supposed to review the product sold as is, but eliminating the just the RC4 alone isn't enough IMO. The review just seems like a big rant with alot of "moments of awesomeness" with no real advices that may help people who may buy this product, or Turner to fix their problem.
3. Harshness may be a problem, but what were some real factual timed result?
Racecars are harsh to ride, they're very uncomfortable, but obviously they perform. How did the turner perform?
Perhaps next time, since you own time laps(sp?), or some of your friends do.
i read the review, and while it is honest, i think it lacks in few areas.
1. your riding style may not suit others(you admit you like it more plush than others), it would have been better if there were multiple riders with input. But given the time limit, it's not solely your fault. I ride my bike with almost all compression on, so who knows. There are people in this thread that shared the same outlook of the harsheness, but it seems that they consist mostly of people who were on demo bikes. One person who actually owned it for a long time seems to differ in opinion.
Seemed in the review that, because of the geometry of the bike, it made you ride more forward biased? Is that something you aren't used to, or aren't fastest at riding? How would people who may ride more front biased perform on this bike? Could this contribute to the harshness in the rear?
2. As others pointed out, you should have switched the rear shock out, especially if you had them available. You are right, you're supposed to review the product sold as is, but eliminating the just the RC4 alone isn't enough IMO. The review just seems like a big rant with alot of "moments of awesomeness" with no real advices that may help people who may buy this product, or Turner to fix their problem.
3. Harshness may be a problem, but what were some real factual timed result?
Racecars are harsh to ride, they're very uncomfortable, but obviously they perform. How did the turner perform?
Perhaps next time, since you own time laps(sp?), or some of your friends do.
Posted by boomforeal at 10:05 AM on 06-02-2011
that kind of settles the matter for me. one can disagree with the reviewer's methodolgy - but it is clearly stated, makes sense, and he sticks to it. can't ask much more than that
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Timmigrant
(Post 2529576)
Swapping the shock certainly would have been easy, and I had some other shocks on hand, but felt the frame should be reviewed as it is sold. I think I took steps to ensure the RC4 that came with the frame functioned properly, and continued reviewing the DHR accordingly.
|
Posted by Bryan at 10:09 AM on 06-02-2011
How about this....aren't you just a little curious as to how the bike would perform with the CCDB? I know I am.
How about this....aren't you just a little curious as to how the bike would perform with the CCDB? I know I am.
Posted by nouseforaname at 11:48 AM on 06-02-2011
Honestly i think throwing a Roco on there would just have left you open to the kind of Marzo fanboism accusations that you got for running the 888 not the 40.
The bike should be reviewed as sold and as supplied, and i think you should have run the 40 after having it serviced.
Thanks for the review Tim, i'll continue to take your opinion over that of RM randoms.
Cam must love the traffic your review is generating.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Timmigrant
(Post 2529579)
Roco fits just fine. From what I understand just the Vivid Air and some heavier Vivid coil springs don't fit without modification to the upper link.
|
The bike should be reviewed as sold and as supplied, and i think you should have run the 40 after having it serviced.
Thanks for the review Tim, i'll continue to take your opinion over that of RM randoms.
Cam must love the traffic your review is generating.
Posted by craw at 11:52 AM on 06-02-2011
I think riding the bike 'as supplied' is relevant for a bike that will be bought and ridden as is. This is a $3k+ frame people will most likely build up from scratch with their parts of choice. I was relieved that he tossed the 40, put on something familiar and got on with reviewing the frame. I know the 40 can work great, and this one probably needed some service, but it's not really relevant to the review.
I think riding the bike 'as supplied' is relevant for a bike that will be bought and ridden as is. This is a $3k+ frame people will most likely build up from scratch with their parts of choice. I was relieved that he tossed the 40, put on something familiar and got on with reviewing the frame. I know the 40 can work great, and this one probably needed some service, but it's not really relevant to the review.
Posted by boomforeal at 12:02 PM on 06-02-2011
:nerd: oh for sure, but i don't fault tim for keeping me in suspense
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bryan
(Post 2529607)
How about this....aren't you just a little curious as to how the bike would perform with the CCDB? I know I am.
|
Posted by Bryan at 12:04 PM on 06-02-2011
Umm I think Tim is running a CCBD on his bike.....just sayin.
The wife is considering getting a Turner and it would be easy to swap out the shock at time of purchase....for a fee obviously. Although I think a bike should be tested as is, seeing how Tim had access to a free CCDB, it sure would have been nice to hear his thoughts on that.........this is due to the fact that i respect Tims opinion.
Also, I find it hard to believe that Tim wouldn't have been curious how the CCDB would have performed on there....as I know he has been impressed with his CCDB....hard to believe I know, but it's true.
sidenote, little disappointed Tim, that your inner curiostity didn't get the best of you. I thought you were the type that would be willing to step outside the bubble to find the truth. Your old Norco came stock with 68/73mm cranks yet that didn't stop you from running 83mm.....I miss the old Tim.lol
Quote:
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Originally Posted by nouseforaname
(Post 2529645)
Honestly i think throwing a Roco on there would just have left you open to the kind of Marzo fanboism accusations that you got for running the 888 not the 40.
|
The wife is considering getting a Turner and it would be easy to swap out the shock at time of purchase....for a fee obviously. Although I think a bike should be tested as is, seeing how Tim had access to a free CCDB, it sure would have been nice to hear his thoughts on that.........this is due to the fact that i respect Tims opinion.
Also, I find it hard to believe that Tim wouldn't have been curious how the CCDB would have performed on there....as I know he has been impressed with his CCDB....hard to believe I know, but it's true.
sidenote, little disappointed Tim, that your inner curiostity didn't get the best of you. I thought you were the type that would be willing to step outside the bubble to find the truth. Your old Norco came stock with 68/73mm cranks yet that didn't stop you from running 83mm.....I miss the old Tim.lol
Posted by cam@nsmb.com at 12:18 PM on 06-02-2011
I just got off the phone with JP from On The Edge - the distributor of Turner Bikes in Canada.
They are shipping us a new rear shock and a fork to redo this test. As well as a needle bearing kit. The bike was a demo from Crankworx last summer and they are concerned that the shock may have had the wrong tune or it may have been faulty in some way.
Tim - are you up for round 2?
I just got off the phone with JP from On The Edge - the distributor of Turner Bikes in Canada.
They are shipping us a new rear shock and a fork to redo this test. As well as a needle bearing kit. The bike was a demo from Crankworx last summer and they are concerned that the shock may have had the wrong tune or it may have been faulty in some way.
Tim - are you up for round 2?
Posted by biggles604 at 12:19 PM on 06-02-2011
I'm finding this whole conversation interesting. If Tim had said the bike was awesome, then this thread would be 10 posts long. He criticised the bike, and the conversation is into the 60s and going strong.
Another thing to consider is that a review is an opinion, and there is no right or wrong way to review it. Turner and DW would be stupid to just ignore a review like this though.
I'm finding this whole conversation interesting. If Tim had said the bike was awesome, then this thread would be 10 posts long. He criticised the bike, and the conversation is into the 60s and going strong.
Another thing to consider is that a review is an opinion, and there is no right or wrong way to review it. Turner and DW would be stupid to just ignore a review like this though.
Posted by FlipFantasia at 12:20 PM on 06-02-2011
had a feeling this was the likely outcome! I trust Tim's assessment, but also know how many peoples experiences of the bike are nearly polar opposite....great discussion everyone, good job keep it civil too!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com
(Post 2529665)
I just got off the phone with JP from On The Edge - the distributor of Turner Bikes in Canada.
They are shipping us a new rear shock and a fork to redo this test. As well as a needle bearing kit. The bike was a demo from Crankworx last summer and they are concerned that the shock may have had the wrong tune or it may have been faulty in some way. Tim - are you up for round 2? |
Posted by Dynamo at 12:24 PM on 06-02-2011
Couple of things to consider here:
1. Every reviewer has biases. As long as they are stated, then readers know whether to accept or reject the review based on how their own biases compare to the reviewer's.
2. It seems that a reasonable person wouldn't buy a bike that felt like poo during a demo ride (although apparently at least one did). That explains to my satisfaction why the people who thought the bike felt harsh didn't have any long term experience on it.
This makes sense to me. I can't speak for the reviewer, but suspect we would have seen some lap times if he'd had the bike longer.
I liked the review. The DHR wasn't a bike I was in the market for before, though, so I have no emotional investment. Just an interested spectator.
Edit: me type slow. Looks like there might be an opportunity to see a longer-term test. Cool!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by J-Kwon
(Post 2529604)
1. your riding style may not suit others(you admit you like it more plush than others), it would have been better if there were multiple riders with input. But given the time limit, it's not solely your fault. I ride my bike with almost all compression on, so who knows. There are people in this thread that shared the same outlook of the harsheness, but it seems that they consist mostly of people who were on demo bikes. One person who actually owned it for a long time seems to differ in opinion.
|
1. Every reviewer has biases. As long as they are stated, then readers know whether to accept or reject the review based on how their own biases compare to the reviewer's.
2. It seems that a reasonable person wouldn't buy a bike that felt like poo during a demo ride (although apparently at least one did). That explains to my satisfaction why the people who thought the bike felt harsh didn't have any long term experience on it.
Quote:
|
3. Harshness may be a problem, but what were some real factual timed result? Racecars are harsh to ride, they're very uncomfortable, but obviously they perform. How did the turner perform? Perhaps next time, since you own time laps(sp?), or some of your friends do. |
I liked the review. The DHR wasn't a bike I was in the market for before, though, so I have no emotional investment. Just an interested spectator.
Edit: me type slow. Looks like there might be an opportunity to see a longer-term test. Cool!
Posted by Sharon at 12:25 PM on 06-02-2011
Just to shock and fork??? lame...
get a new complete bike for a longer term review!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com
(Post 2529665)
I just got off the phone with JP from On The Edge - the distributor of Turner Bikes in Canada.
They are shipping us a new rear shock and a fork to redo this test. As well as a needle bearing kit. The bike was a demo from Crankworx last summer and they are concerned that the shock may have had the wrong tune or it may have been faulty in some way. Tim - are you up for round 2? |
get a new complete bike for a longer term review!
Posted by Bryan at 12:32 PM on 06-02-2011
Hey Tim, If you do a second review could you try throwing your CCBD on there just for me and Karaleen....I know the rest of the world wouldn't consider possibly changing the shock on their bike, but we would....lol. You could PM the results so as to not offend anyone. Of course beers and free shuttles could be offered.
Oh and maybe get a bike that doesn't have a boat anchor wheeelset.
Hey Tim, If you do a second review could you try throwing your CCBD on there just for me and Karaleen....I know the rest of the world wouldn't consider possibly changing the shock on their bike, but we would....lol. You could PM the results so as to not offend anyone. Of course beers and free shuttles could be offered.
Oh and maybe get a bike that doesn't have a boat anchor wheeelset.
Posted by PUNKY at 12:35 PM on 06-02-2011
Pretty sure you can order the DHR with whatever shock you want
Pretty sure you can order the DHR with whatever shock you want
Posted by Cableguy at 12:39 PM on 06-02-2011
Tim mentioned he had a Trek Session 88. I currently ride that with RC4. I also demoed for a day a Turner DHR with RC4 a couple of months ago. Although the stock spring on DHR was a little soft for me (350lb), I thought it was definitely more supple than the Session. But since I am a slow old fart, I didn't get the bike to the extremes that Tim obviously pushed it to.
Tim, if you do another round of testing, can you compare/contrast with the Trek Session too? Thanks for the review.
Tim mentioned he had a Trek Session 88. I currently ride that with RC4. I also demoed for a day a Turner DHR with RC4 a couple of months ago. Although the stock spring on DHR was a little soft for me (350lb), I thought it was definitely more supple than the Session. But since I am a slow old fart, I didn't get the bike to the extremes that Tim obviously pushed it to.
Tim, if you do another round of testing, can you compare/contrast with the Trek Session too? Thanks for the review.
Posted by shirk at 12:43 PM on 06-02-2011
Not according to the Turner website, at least not as I read it yesterday. Perhaps if you can they should make it more clear.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PUNKY
(Post 2529685)
Pretty sure you can order the DHR with whatever shock you want
|
Posted by Timmigrant at 12:49 PM on 06-02-2011
Woah today's comments got interesting! I ran the Double Barrel and the RC4 from the Turner back to back in a separate test bike. I thought both shocks were excellent. I run the Double Barrel's compression near backed out all the way, similarly to the RC4. Performance over high speed chatter was pretty even between the two shocks on the separate test bike.
I'd be interested in retrying the DHR with a new shock and fork per Cam and On the Edge's suggestions. I can do some back to back testing with my race bike and hopefully get in some runs on the Shore as well as Whistler. If I were to retest the DHR I'd do a couple runs with the Double Barrel for you Bryan.
Woah today's comments got interesting! I ran the Double Barrel and the RC4 from the Turner back to back in a separate test bike. I thought both shocks were excellent. I run the Double Barrel's compression near backed out all the way, similarly to the RC4. Performance over high speed chatter was pretty even between the two shocks on the separate test bike.
I'd be interested in retrying the DHR with a new shock and fork per Cam and On the Edge's suggestions. I can do some back to back testing with my race bike and hopefully get in some runs on the Shore as well as Whistler. If I were to retest the DHR I'd do a couple runs with the Double Barrel for you Bryan.
Posted by Bryan at 12:51 PM on 06-02-2011
my sources show rc4 only, but show me a shop that wouldn't swap stuff....for a fee of course.oh and last time i checked new but installed shocks still had some type of worth.
my sources show rc4 only, but show me a shop that wouldn't swap stuff....for a fee of course.oh and last time i checked new but installed shocks still had some type of worth.
Posted by Raingauge at 01:06 PM on 06-02-2011
I'm definitely interested in reading a second review. I was a fan of the DW link on the Sunday and the dual progressive rate that my Evil had.
I thought this bike might have been my holy grail. I was scared off by the rumors I've heard about the head tubes.
I'm definitely interested in reading a second review. I was a fan of the DW link on the Sunday and the dual progressive rate that my Evil had.
I thought this bike might have been my holy grail. I was scared off by the rumors I've heard about the head tubes.
Posted by Bryan at 01:12 PM on 06-02-2011
headtube issue was a manufacturing error that i believe was a first run only frame issue. all the effected frames were replaced under warranty
headtube issue was a manufacturing error that i believe was a first run only frame issue. all the effected frames were replaced under warranty
Posted by PUNKY at 01:20 PM on 06-02-2011
RC4 is stock. Shop would switch out to another shock of your choice.
RC4 is stock. Shop would switch out to another shock of your choice.
Posted by Udi at 01:45 PM on 06-02-2011
It's good to hear your response, and I am (like others) always happy to read a negative and honest review.
http://www.tftunedshox.com/info/spring_calculator.aspx
I've found this quite accurate in most cases, and it suggests much closer to a 350lb spring for your weight. I could understand a 375, but I suspect 400 is heading towards too firm. Keeping in mind that the RC4 has a greater shaft diameter than others, combined with curnutt-style progressive damping in a reasonably progressive frame - all characteristics that point towards a slightly softer spring than one would usually run.
Big-ted has nailed it here. Differences in leverage curves can make phenomenal differences to tuning requirements. Consider an Orange 22X frame compared to a DHR, assuming the exact same travel. The shocks would still have vastly different tuning requirements.
I don't own a DHR, but owning another of Weagle's frames, I can assure you that they are indeed sensitive to shock setup/choice - to the point of being quite communicative of the fact if things aren't quite right.
Surely this is the question on everyone's minds. The bike just sounds like a rough ride from the get go - 40's usually feel quite nice as long as they are broken in and looked after (yet you disliked yours enough to change to a different fork entirely), and most people wrap their stays when they build bikes.
Anyway like I said, it's great to see honest + negative reviews now and then, I just found your opinion was completely different from other riders I know who have tried the bike - which is what made me wonder if maybe something just wasn't quite right with the setup as tested. It only takes one rough bearing or one tight bushing to make suspension feel like crap.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Timmigrant
(Post 2529209)
All great questions Udi. I weight just under 190lbs with all my gear on. I used a 400lb spring for the entire test, which is what the distributor suggested I use.
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http://www.tftunedshox.com/info/spring_calculator.aspx
I've found this quite accurate in most cases, and it suggests much closer to a 350lb spring for your weight. I could understand a 375, but I suspect 400 is heading towards too firm. Keeping in mind that the RC4 has a greater shaft diameter than others, combined with curnutt-style progressive damping in a reasonably progressive frame - all characteristics that point towards a slightly softer spring than one would usually run.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Timmigrant
(Post 2529209)
Here are some additional thoughts on the shock. I rode this shock and spring on another DH bike that uses the same dimension shock, and has very similar rear wheel travel (0.2" less), so average leverage rate was similar.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by big-ted
(Post 2529489)
Different rising/falling rates can easily require a different shock tune and/or mask a faulty shock.
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I don't own a DHR, but owning another of Weagle's frames, I can assure you that they are indeed sensitive to shock setup/choice - to the point of being quite communicative of the fact if things aren't quite right.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by big-ted
(Post 2529489)
You still have no idea if that RC4 was actually functioning as intended on that bike and, bearing in mind the state of the fork, it's not outside the realm of possibility that it was roached.
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Anyway like I said, it's great to see honest + negative reviews now and then, I just found your opinion was completely different from other riders I know who have tried the bike - which is what made me wonder if maybe something just wasn't quite right with the setup as tested. It only takes one rough bearing or one tight bushing to make suspension feel like crap.
Posted by Freerider Forever at 04:36 PM on 06-02-2011
I also told Karaleen she could ride my DHR...should be set up perfect for her. Small, CCDB, and under 35 lb total build weight. I'll be up in Whistler Sunday/Monday if she wants to take it for a spin.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Bryan
(Post 2529684)
Hey Tim, If you do a second review could you try throwing your CCBD on there just for me and Karaleen....I know the rest of the world wouldn't consider possibly changing the shock on their bike, but we would....lol. You could PM the results so as to not offend anyone. Of course beers and free shuttles could be offered.
Oh and maybe get a bike that doesn't have a boat anchor wheeelset. |
Posted by Bryan at 04:57 PM on 06-02-2011
We were hoping to be at North Fork on Sunday....lol
Ya she really want to try your bike, actually so do I.
We were hoping to be at North Fork on Sunday....lol
Ya she really want to try your bike, actually so do I.
Posted by big-ted at 05:12 PM on 06-02-2011
Good to hear!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com
(Post 2529665)
I just got off the phone with JP from On The Edge - the distributor of Turner Bikes in Canada.
They are shipping us a new rear shock and a fork to redo this test. As well as a needle bearing kit. The bike was a demo from Crankworx last summer and they are concerned that the shock may have had the wrong tune or it may have been faulty in some way. |
Posted by clarklewis at 05:27 PM on 06-02-2011
tim, what are the chances the bike felt harsh because you've been riding a session for so long?
perhaps you've just been spoiled by an unbelievably awesome bike (trek session)?
i only ask because the bit of time i spent on one last summer blew my mind.
tim, what are the chances the bike felt harsh because you've been riding a session for so long?
perhaps you've just been spoiled by an unbelievably awesome bike (trek session)?
i only ask because the bit of time i spent on one last summer blew my mind.
Posted by JCL at 05:54 PM on 06-02-2011
The CCDB works best with a flat rate. I'm sure the RC4 would be the better shock for the DHR.
The CCDB works best with a flat rate. I'm sure the RC4 would be the better shock for the DHR.
Posted by Bryan at 06:34 PM on 06-02-2011
Funny, I've heard the exact opposite.
Due to the Fox having a larger displacement of fluid because of the large shock shaft, it has a natural progressive rate built into it. Now couple that with a suspension design that has a progressive ending rate and you get a suspension that harsh in the last few inches of travel.
I'd love to hear why you feel the CCDB is better at the flat rate and the RC4 would be better with a progressive one?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JCL
(Post 2529802)
The CCDB works best with a flat rate. I'm sure the RC4 would be the better shock for the DHR.
|
Due to the Fox having a larger displacement of fluid because of the large shock shaft, it has a natural progressive rate built into it. Now couple that with a suspension design that has a progressive ending rate and you get a suspension that harsh in the last few inches of travel.
I'd love to hear why you feel the CCDB is better at the flat rate and the RC4 would be better with a progressive one?
Posted by Freerider Forever at 07:03 PM on 06-02-2011
Ah well, I'm sure we'll cross paths soon...
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bryan
(Post 2529791)
We were hoping to be at North Fork on Sunday....lol
Ya she really want to try your bike, actually so do I. |
Posted by Timmigrant at 07:11 PM on 06-02-2011
Entirely possible Clark. My Session 88 is the bench mark comparison for me as I've spent so much time on it. Between my older Session 88 and the DHR I rode I'd rather the Session by a margin. With less sag the Session 88 is suppler over rough terrain, pedals near as well as the DHR, is lighter, cheaper, just as stiff and prettier (IMO). Furthermore with the new geo on the 2011 Session 88 I imagine it's even better than mine.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by clarklewis
(Post 2529798)
tim, what are the chances the bike felt harsh because you've been riding a session for so long?
perhaps you've just been spoiled by an unbelievably awesome bike (trek session)? i only ask because the bit of time i spent on one last summer blew my mind. |
Posted by DaveM at 07:30 PM on 06-02-2011
wow, this thread sure made the rounds of the internet forums!
wow, this thread sure made the rounds of the internet forums!
Posted by JCL at 07:33 PM on 06-02-2011
Yep you're right. Don't know what I was thinking.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bryan
(Post 2529816)
Funny, I've heard the exact opposite.
Due to the Fox having a larger displacement of fluid because of the large shock shaft, it has a natural progressive rate built into it. Now couple that with a suspension design that has a progressive ending rate and you get a suspension that harsh in the last few inches of travel. I'd love to hear why you feel the CCDB is better at the flat rate and the RC4 would be better with a progressive one? |
Posted by Bryan at 07:33 PM on 06-02-2011
^^^really?
this was actually to Davem's post but it still kinda counts
^^^really?
this was actually to Davem's post but it still kinda counts
Posted by Bryan at 07:34 PM on 06-02-2011
wait, WAT?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by JCL
(Post 2529832)
Yep you're right. Don't know what I was thinking.
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Posted by JCL at 07:50 PM on 06-02-2011
Got is ass backwards. As you say the Ohlins system should be great for the DHR rate.
Got is ass backwards. As you say the Ohlins system should be great for the DHR rate.
Posted by cam@nsmb.com at 09:54 PM on 06-02-2011
There are others?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DaveM
(Post 2529830)
wow, this thread sure made the rounds of the internet forums!
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Posted by DaveM at 10:02 PM on 06-02-2011
none worthy of speaking about :lol:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com
(Post 2529897)
There are others?
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Posted by TokyoDrift at 10:38 PM on 06-02-2011
Any test bike needs to be in 100% working order to be valid.
Any high end mountain bike needs to be tuned to your specifics before jumping to any conclusions (weight, style, terrain) - if you dont know how to then take it to a shop or expert - SuspensionWerx
The Fox 40 is fantastic, dont try to tell me otherwise - again have it serviced if needed
I have ridden countless DH bikes and I was lucky enough to demo a DHR last summer at Crankworks, and I was immediately impressed with the bike - with little to no adjustments.
Im not saying you are wrong, Im just saying I dont think this bike was given a fair chance.
Any test bike needs to be in 100% working order to be valid.
Any high end mountain bike needs to be tuned to your specifics before jumping to any conclusions (weight, style, terrain) - if you dont know how to then take it to a shop or expert - SuspensionWerx
The Fox 40 is fantastic, dont try to tell me otherwise - again have it serviced if needed
I have ridden countless DH bikes and I was lucky enough to demo a DHR last summer at Crankworks, and I was immediately impressed with the bike - with little to no adjustments.
Im not saying you are wrong, Im just saying I dont think this bike was given a fair chance.
Posted by Bryan at 10:43 PM on 06-02-2011
this guy is for realz, check his rep....ya can't dispute the rep
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TokyoDrift
(Post 2529919)
Any test bike needs to be in 100% working order to be valid.
Any high end mountain bike needs to be tuned to your specifics before jumping to any conclusions (weight, style, terrain) - if you dont know how to then take it to a shop or expert - SuspensionWerx The Fox 40 is fantastic, dont try to tell me otherwise - again have it serviced if needed I have ridden countless DH bikes and I was lucky enough to demo a DHR last summer at Crankworks, and I was immediately impressed with the bike - with little to no adjustments. Im not saying you are wrong, Im just saying I dont think this bike was given a fair chance. |
Posted by syncro at 11:49 PM on 06-02-2011
i agree with you but how reasonable is it to expect a tester to basically rebuild an entire bike to get it up to snuff?
if the manufacturer/shop/distributor/rep can't be bothered to supply a tester with a working bike then they deserve a shitty review.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TokyoDrift
(Post 2529919)
Any test bike needs to be in 100% working order to be valid.
Any high end mountain bike needs to be tuned to your specifics before jumping to any conclusions (weight, style, terrain) - if you dont know how to then take it to a shop or expert - SuspensionWerx The Fox 40 is fantastic, dont try to tell me otherwise - again have it serviced if needed I have ridden countless DH bikes and I was lucky enough to demo a DHR last summer at Crankworks, and I was immediately impressed with the bike - with little to no adjustments. Im not saying you are wrong, Im just saying I dont think this bike was given a fair chance. |
if the manufacturer/shop/distributor/rep can't be bothered to supply a tester with a working bike then they deserve a shitty review.
Posted by connor at 12:04 AM on 06-03-2011
and he has an awesome name.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Bryan
(Post 2529920)
this guy is for realz, check his rep....ya can't dispute the rep
|
Posted by g_k at 12:38 AM on 06-03-2011
This is the kind of attitude that makes me scratch my head. Let's suppose Top Gear was to review a high end sports car in one of their series, would it be reviewers job to overhaul to car and service the hell out of it before starting the review. Guess not.
It seems the bike industry has successfully trained us to live with forks that require oil change right of the box, suspension seatposts that fail after the fourth ride and we as happy customers buy no questions asked. Buy high end stuff - don't expect it to work out of the box.
The reviewer has given the DHR more than a fair chance by swapping out the fork in order to avoid the bias a possibly sub-par fork would have. Remember, it's a frame review. Also, to check whether the shock was working in another bike suggests that the reviewer indeed wanted to ensure the frame/shock is alright.
I guess that's what you get if you mess with the <insert any high priced boutique frame manufacturer here> fanboys and their hype machine.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TokyoDrift
(Post 2529919)
Any test bike needs to be in 100% working order to be valid.
Any high end mountain bike needs to be tuned to your specifics before jumping to any conclusions (weight, style, terrain) - if you dont know how to then take it to a shop or expert - SuspensionWerx The Fox 40 is fantastic, dont try to tell me otherwise - again have it serviced if needed I have ridden countless DH bikes and I was lucky enough to demo a DHR last summer at Crankworks, and I was immediately impressed with the bike - with little to no adjustments. Im not saying you are wrong, Im just saying I dont think this bike was given a fair chance. |
It seems the bike industry has successfully trained us to live with forks that require oil change right of the box, suspension seatposts that fail after the fourth ride and we as happy customers buy no questions asked. Buy high end stuff - don't expect it to work out of the box.
The reviewer has given the DHR more than a fair chance by swapping out the fork in order to avoid the bias a possibly sub-par fork would have. Remember, it's a frame review. Also, to check whether the shock was working in another bike suggests that the reviewer indeed wanted to ensure the frame/shock is alright.
I guess that's what you get if you mess with the <insert any high priced boutique frame manufacturer here> fanboys and their hype machine.
Posted by xy9ine at 08:09 AM on 06-03-2011
tim, dw is listening:
http://images.ridemonkey.com/index.p...rotector_1.jpg
http://images.ridemonkey.com/index.p...HR_package.jpg
tim, dw is listening:
http://images.ridemonkey.com/index.p...rotector_1.jpg
http://images.ridemonkey.com/index.p...HR_package.jpg
Posted by Gnarly_X at 08:17 AM on 06-03-2011
^ that
consumers as beta testers :thepimp:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by g_k
(Post 2529947)
It seems the bike industry has successfully trained us to live with forks that require oil change right of the box, suspension seatposts that fail after the fourth ride and we as happy customers buy no questions asked. Buy high end stuff - don't expect it to work out of the box.
|
consumers as beta testers :thepimp:
Posted by clownmitts at 08:58 AM on 06-03-2011
I couldn't agree with your statement more. Further, I find it appalling that manufacturers are publicly stating that internet forums discussing their products should be ignored in lieu of their official statements. Take a look at some of the manufacturer forums on mtbr or even a video posted Turner himself (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0YSyB8C5jM).
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by g_k
(Post 2529947)
This is the kind of attitude that makes me scratch my head. Let's suppose Top Gear was to review a high end sports car in one of their series, would it be reviewers job to overhaul to car and service the hell out of it before starting the review. Guess not.
It seems the bike industry has successfully trained us to live with forks that require oil change right of the box, suspension seatposts that fail after the fourth ride and we as happy customers buy no questions asked. Buy high end stuff - don't expect it to work out of the box. The reviewer has given the DHR more than a fair chance by swapping out the fork in order to avoid the bias a possibly sub-par fork would have. Remember, it's a frame review. Also, to check whether the shock was working in another bike suggests that the reviewer indeed wanted to ensure the frame/shock is alright. I guess that's what you get if you mess with the <insert any high priced boutique frame manufacturer here> fanboys and their hype machine. |
Posted by NeverlosT at 09:08 AM on 06-03-2011
I sent a link to this thread to some affiliated with turner, word on the street is turner is going to make this right. Get a new setup to the reviewer or group that the reviewer is associated with to get another take on the bike. Feeling is that it was a bad shock or bad shock setup. Either way, a bike of this caliber deserves a second shot. If it is still fishy, I can dig it, I wouldn't expect this bike to be loved by absolutely everyone, but this would answer the questions, silence the dissidents, and probably cure world hunger.
ps. i ride a demo, and dislike riding sundays because of all the anti-squat. they pedal awesome but on DH i like to bob and weave in the travel. Moral is, we are all likely to enjoy a different style of suspension, and DW might just not be your favorite flavor.
I sent a link to this thread to some affiliated with turner, word on the street is turner is going to make this right. Get a new setup to the reviewer or group that the reviewer is associated with to get another take on the bike. Feeling is that it was a bad shock or bad shock setup. Either way, a bike of this caliber deserves a second shot. If it is still fishy, I can dig it, I wouldn't expect this bike to be loved by absolutely everyone, but this would answer the questions, silence the dissidents, and probably cure world hunger.
ps. i ride a demo, and dislike riding sundays because of all the anti-squat. they pedal awesome but on DH i like to bob and weave in the travel. Moral is, we are all likely to enjoy a different style of suspension, and DW might just not be your favorite flavor.
Posted by Timmigrant at 12:20 PM on 06-03-2011
Woah, those are pretty snazzy. Any info on whether those will come with the frames or if they are an additional accessory?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by xy9ine
(Post 2529976)
tim, dw is listening:
http://images.ridemonkey.com/index.p...rotector_1.jpg http://images.ridemonkey.com/index.p...HR_package.jpg |
Posted by xy9ine at 12:22 PM on 06-03-2011
unclear; in development. dw's thread:
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=242788
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Timmigrant
(Post 2530135)
Woah, those are pretty snazzy. Any info on whether those will come with the frames or if they are an additional accessory?
|
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=242788
Posted by Skip at 01:31 PM on 06-03-2011
Wow. Took and entire lunch break to read through this thread. Nice job Tim. Can't wait for the rematch!
[subscribe]
Wow. Took and entire lunch break to read through this thread. Nice job Tim. Can't wait for the rematch!
[subscribe]
Posted by boomforeal at 01:57 PM on 06-03-2011
nice, but you never get a second chance to make a first impression
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by NeverlosT
(Post 2530010)
word on the street is turner is going to make this right
|
Posted by shirk at 01:59 PM on 06-03-2011
Didn't someone refer to it as the Stealth bike? Does a Stealth bike need custom chain stay protectors?
lol just stirring the pot.
Didn't someone refer to it as the Stealth bike? Does a Stealth bike need custom chain stay protectors?
lol just stirring the pot.
Posted by shirk at 02:04 PM on 06-03-2011
Ride Monkey thread (talking about the review starts on page two)
EmptyBeer Homer section thread.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com
(Post 2529897)
There are others?
|
EmptyBeer Homer section thread.
Posted by Dirk at 02:28 PM on 06-03-2011
I went and had a skim of the RideMonkey post. It's worth a read. Dave Weagle pops in at one point. And I have to say...
What a tool! Somebody should lock that guy in a basement with his autocad (Pro-Engineer..whatever). Prevent him from interacting with humans. Condescending. Elitist. Asshole.
He dismisses the criticism as irrelevant. He refers to it as a "review". He states his opinions as facts. I've never been a fan of the DW hype machine and the preachy "engineering" lectures, but man...those 3-4 posts make me want to yank the e-13 bash guard off my bike.
I went and had a skim of the RideMonkey post. It's worth a read. Dave Weagle pops in at one point. And I have to say...
What a tool! Somebody should lock that guy in a basement with his autocad (Pro-Engineer..whatever). Prevent him from interacting with humans. Condescending. Elitist. Asshole.
He dismisses the criticism as irrelevant. He refers to it as a "review". He states his opinions as facts. I've never been a fan of the DW hype machine and the preachy "engineering" lectures, but man...those 3-4 posts make me want to yank the e-13 bash guard off my bike.
Posted by boomforeal at 02:35 PM on 06-03-2011
oh that's rich
Quote:
|
I'll be honest in saying that I haven't had any time to read your "review" of the dwDHR. I'll probably get to it at some point. At any rate, can you let me know the exact shock settings that you were using? ... Don't forget to note fork settings, tire pressures, trail conditions as well. Help me help you. Dave |
Posted by walleater at 02:36 PM on 06-03-2011
LOL science. What a bunch of dorks.
LOL science. What a bunch of dorks.
Posted by Rigaud at 03:27 PM on 06-03-2011
I read some of his comments over the years and he always passes off like he's king sh*t. I have an older DHR (2006)which was my friends, I wouldn't touch the newer ones with all the issues they are having. The 2011 frames coming out are actually lat years batch that got messed up.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dirk
(Post 2530206)
I went and had a skim of the RideMonkey post. It's worth a read. Dave Weagle pops in at one point. And I have to say...
What a tool! Somebody should lock that guy in a basement with his autocad (Pro-Engineer..whatever). Prevent him from interacting with humans. Condescending. Elitist. Asshole. He dismisses the criticism as irrelevant. He refers to it as a "review". He states his opinions as facts. I've never been a fan of the DW hype machine and the preachy "engineering" lectures, but man...those 3-4 posts make me want to yank the e-13 bash guard off my bike. |
Posted by J-Kwon at 01:03 AM on 06-04-2011
Lol @ dw, little to no money "engineering" bike parts, let alone bike frame.
Cars, motorcycle, boats, planes Pwn bicycle.
Lol @ dw, little to no money "engineering" bike parts, let alone bike frame.
Cars, motorcycle, boats, planes Pwn bicycle.
Posted by clownmitts at 06:58 AM on 06-04-2011
Has DW got asperger's?
Has DW got asperger's?
Posted by Bryan at 07:46 AM on 06-04-2011
Am I missing something here? I thought it was a "review"
I do agree with your comments though....he does think he's something.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dirk
(Post 2530206)
He refers to it as a "review".
|
I do agree with your comments though....he does think he's something.
Posted by walleater at 08:02 AM on 06-04-2011
As great as the DW link may be, reading anything by him just makes me want to punch kittens.
As great as the DW link may be, reading anything by him just makes me want to punch kittens.
Posted by Blbroiler at 08:32 AM on 06-04-2011
Thanks Tim, you have helped me breathe a huge sigh of releif. I had the DHR and M9 as final choices, went with the M9 in the end but it was literally a coin toss, availability and importer support that made my decision. I could NOT get objective reviews anywhere!
Keep up the good work!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by clownmitts
(Post 2529334)
I'm glad to see someone in the mountain biking community has the courage to write a critical review of a product. The general state of mountain biking journalism is pathetic. Take a look Bike Magazine's bible of bike tests which, to the uncritical and uninformed eye, is about as milquetoast in its critique as say, a new york times theatre critic at a christmas play put on by 3 year olds.
Serious money is being thrown around in this market and it is increasingly difficult to obtain information on the quality of products. God knows we don't need any more pseudo reviews from people with the intention of generating market exposure. |
Keep up the good work!
Posted by jvp at 09:37 AM on 06-04-2011
Thanks for the honest review! I'm bored with mt. bike media since with all the same regurgitated marketing drivel with no honesty. More of this, and I'll become a regular reader again.
I know it's a bit crooked, but I like watching Turner, DW and their fanboys squirm when there's anything other than praise and adulation for them and their products. It feels like religion - don't you dare question the prophets! They've got some great products, but come on, not everything you make is going to be great, especially for the price.
I mean "exact shock settings"? Really? If a bike is that finicky, it's got some serious issues. A lot of us will beat a bike into the ground and want it to still feel ok once that shock starts to get a bit worked.
Thanks for the honest review! I'm bored with mt. bike media since with all the same regurgitated marketing drivel with no honesty. More of this, and I'll become a regular reader again.
I know it's a bit crooked, but I like watching Turner, DW and their fanboys squirm when there's anything other than praise and adulation for them and their products. It feels like religion - don't you dare question the prophets! They've got some great products, but come on, not everything you make is going to be great, especially for the price.
I mean "exact shock settings"? Really? If a bike is that finicky, it's got some serious issues. A lot of us will beat a bike into the ground and want it to still feel ok once that shock starts to get a bit worked.
Posted by F.M. at 09:57 AM on 06-04-2011
Lingerie color should also be noted as it affects rebound damping, in my experience. :thepimp:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by jvp
(Post 2530477)
I mean "exact shock settings"? Really? If a bike is that finicky, it's got some serious issues.
|
Posted by nouseforaname at 01:05 PM on 06-04-2011
Difference between a Pinkbike "review" and an NSMB review IMO.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Bryan
(Post 2530435)
Am I missing something here? I thought it was a "review"
|
Difference between a Pinkbike "review" and an NSMB review IMO.
Posted by Aeropusher at 04:38 PM on 06-04-2011
I can't wait to see pt.2 of the Tim and DW show.
you know, Tim... there's a mountain on the island on which you could do some of this testing
I can't wait to see pt.2 of the Tim and DW show.
you know, Tim... there's a mountain on the island on which you could do some of this testing
Posted by Timmigrant at 10:44 PM on 06-05-2011
LOL ... I was using purple lingerie for most of the test. Maybe I'll switch to red for Part 2.
Aeropusher that sounds like a fantastic offer. I've heard of these mountains on the Island. I'll let you know if I can squeak on over the water for a week-end day when I get the DHR back.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by F.M.
(Post 2530484)
Lingerie color should also be noted as it affects rebound damping, in my experience. :thepimp:
|
Aeropusher that sounds like a fantastic offer. I've heard of these mountains on the Island. I'll let you know if I can squeak on over the water for a week-end day when I get the DHR back.
Posted by Hard Tack at 10:48 PM on 06-05-2011
You might need to get the track approved by DW and his fanboys first.
You might need to get the track approved by DW and his fanboys first.
Posted by Aeropusher at 10:59 PM on 06-05-2011
same deal as always....catch a boat across the moat and I'll pick you up...I'll even get some of the faster locals to give you the high speed tour. There might even be a new muffler on the rattle-canyonero by then.
It's Steve Smith approved!! If DW doesnt like that he can cram his slide-rule somewhere inappropriate. After reading his sermons on ridemonkey I'm pretty sure DW will discredit any test that doesn't have enough data acquisition to make an F1 team jealous.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Timmigrant
(Post 2531171)
Aeropusher that sounds like a fantastic offer. I've heard of these mountains on the Island. I'll let you know if I can squeak on over the water for a week-end day when I get the DHR back.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Hard Tack
(Post 2531172)
You might need to get the track approved by DW and his fanboys first.
|
It's Steve Smith approved!! If DW doesnt like that he can cram his slide-rule somewhere inappropriate. After reading his sermons on ridemonkey I'm pretty sure DW will discredit any test that doesn't have enough data acquisition to make an F1 team jealous.
Posted by shirk at 11:45 PM on 06-05-2011
A GoPro mounted to a seat post pointed at the rear wheel would certainly document if the wheel is tracking well or bucking about.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Aeropusher
(Post 2531175)
After reading his sermons on ridemonkey I'm pretty sure DW will discredit any test that doenst have enough data acquisition to make an F1 team jealous.
|
Posted by cam@nsmb.com at 11:59 PM on 06-05-2011
I haven't seen the comments you guys are referring to online, but DW in person is a real pleasure. He's humble and honest and just a good guy to be around. There isn't a whiff of elitism in the flesh - that's for certain.
I haven't seen the comments you guys are referring to online, but DW in person is a real pleasure. He's humble and honest and just a good guy to be around. There isn't a whiff of elitism in the flesh - that's for certain.
Posted by clarklewis at 01:31 AM on 06-06-2011
tim, nice DW rebuttal you posted on RM.
too bad we're all too stoopid to understand his marketing "science".
easy to expose faults on our trail network.
funny how they think we still only ride skinnies and dorps to falt all day long.
dw doesn't handle criticism with much grace.
at the end of the day, this is just another dh plow machine. the rider is by far the bigger variable.
tim, nice DW rebuttal you posted on RM.
too bad we're all too stoopid to understand his marketing "science".
easy to expose faults on our trail network.
funny how they think we still only ride skinnies and dorps to falt all day long.
dw doesn't handle criticism with much grace.
at the end of the day, this is just another dh plow machine. the rider is by far the bigger variable.
Posted by xy9ine at 05:54 AM on 06-06-2011
i concur. i've had a few tech exchanges with him & he seems like a straight up guy. smart, yes, but above all passionate about bikes & his work. would love to have a beer or 3 with the guy. perhaps defensiveness of his work comes off as egocentrism occasionally, but the boards are unrelenting places; i'm amazed people like him make personal appearances at all.
not a bad interview:
http://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/featu...3607/Lucent,16
http://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/featu...3608/Lucent,16
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com
(Post 2531188)
I haven't seen the comments you guys are referring to online, but DW in person is a real pleasure. He's humble and honest and just a good guy to be around. There isn't a whiff of elitism in the flesh - that's for certain.
|
not a bad interview:
http://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/featu...3607/Lucent,16
http://www.vitalmtb.com/videos/featu...3608/Lucent,16
Posted by Dirk at 10:00 AM on 06-06-2011
No. It was a review. Not a "review".
It would be similar to me referring to what you wrote as a "comment". See. That's a dick move.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Bryan
(Post 2530435)
Am I missing something here? I thought it was a "review"
I do agree with your comments though....he does think he's something. |
It would be similar to me referring to what you wrote as a "comment". See. That's a dick move.
Posted by J-Kwon at 10:04 AM on 06-06-2011
I don't care if dw is humble in real life, he's comes off as a douche behind his computer.
I don't care if dw is humble in real life, he's comes off as a douche behind his computer.
Posted by walleater at 10:12 AM on 06-06-2011
Many of us do :lol:
I guess he could just do with a PR guy, or save a potential post over night before posting it.
Personally I don't really care too much what any suspension designer has to say. I ride a short shocked mk1 Nomad and it pisses all over it's 'correct' set up, which helps to show that geometry is far more important than suspension design / quality.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by J-Kwon
(Post 2531291)
I don't care if dw is humble in real life, he's comes off as a douche behind his computer.
|
I guess he could just do with a PR guy, or save a potential post over night before posting it.
Personally I don't really care too much what any suspension designer has to say. I ride a short shocked mk1 Nomad and it pisses all over it's 'correct' set up, which helps to show that geometry is far more important than suspension design / quality.
Posted by Tracer Tong at 10:46 AM on 06-06-2011
These days you can have both.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by walleater
(Post 2531297)
Personally I don't really care too much what any suspension designer has to say. I ride a short shocked mk1 Nomad and it pisses all over it's 'correct' set up, which helps to show that geometry is far more important than suspension design / quality.
|
Posted by J-Kwon at 11:29 AM on 06-06-2011
This is a bad review, obviously everyone knows 888 sucks for freeriding, and tim rode the northshore(which obviously consists of slow trails and skinnies).
Ps: on serious note, be just as objective. I'd like to see how the dw and his fanboys reacts
This is a bad review, obviously everyone knows 888 sucks for freeriding, and tim rode the northshore(which obviously consists of slow trails and skinnies).
Ps: on serious note, be just as objective. I'd like to see how the dw and his fanboys reacts
Posted by walleater at 04:28 PM on 06-06-2011
Yep, I know. I've owned horse links, VPP, single pivot, single pivot with idler pulley, hardtail, fully rigid, Flex Stems, Marzocchi Star Forks, Manitou 1 etc.....and I'd still chose a bike on how it looks, the ability to run a full length seat post and the geometry over suspension design.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Tracer Tong
(Post 2531310)
These days you can have both.
|
Posted by Lorien at 06:23 PM on 06-06-2011
that review was a good read.
that review was a good read.
Posted by connor at 06:48 PM on 06-06-2011
Look at my sig and search ridemonkey. douche.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com
(Post 2531188)
I haven't seen the comments you guys are referring to online, but DW in person is a real pleasure. He's humble and honest and just a good guy to be around. There isn't a whiff of elitism in the flesh - that's for certain.
|
Posted by strahan at 07:17 PM on 06-06-2011
doesn't this just sum up the nsmb board in general?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by J-Kwon
(Post 2531291)
I don't care if dw is humble in real life, he's comes off as a douche behind his computer.
|
Posted by DaveM at 07:32 PM on 06-06-2011
haha, no kidding
I know some really smart people that aren't very good at internet. If you bypass the what comes across like condescending attitude from Weagle, he's got a lot of really smart stuff to share.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by strahan
(Post 2531468)
doesn't this just sum up the nsmb board in general?
|
I know some really smart people that aren't very good at internet. If you bypass the what comes across like condescending attitude from Weagle, he's got a lot of really smart stuff to share.
Posted by Couch_Surfer at 08:17 PM on 06-06-2011
Wow, really? Cam's always seemed like a good guy to me.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by connor
(Post 2531461)
Look at my sig and search ridemonkey. douche.
|
Posted by Da Peach at 09:55 PM on 06-06-2011
Bike folk aren't terribly great at promoting their product in general anyway. The hype-o-matic is usually turned up to 11, but the follow through seems to often be lacking. Whoever is in charge of giving product to people to test should have their shit together. The bike in question had been in circulation for some time, so who knows what the hell it had been through. The fact that that shock was put on another bike does negate that somewhat...but still. The fact that this could be a possibility is kind of ridiculous.
If I was producing a product that I'd been working on for years, especially with a mega-hype-bonanza surrounding it once it finally did get to market, I think I'd make it crystal clear to everyone who was selling it that they need to be 100% sure that the product was checked over (and over again) before they ever got into the hands of "the media".
But from the demo experiences I've had at Crankworx, it made my wonder why they bother.
Bike folk aren't terribly great at promoting their product in general anyway. The hype-o-matic is usually turned up to 11, but the follow through seems to often be lacking. Whoever is in charge of giving product to people to test should have their shit together. The bike in question had been in circulation for some time, so who knows what the hell it had been through. The fact that that shock was put on another bike does negate that somewhat...but still. The fact that this could be a possibility is kind of ridiculous.
If I was producing a product that I'd been working on for years, especially with a mega-hype-bonanza surrounding it once it finally did get to market, I think I'd make it crystal clear to everyone who was selling it that they need to be 100% sure that the product was checked over (and over again) before they ever got into the hands of "the media".
But from the demo experiences I've had at Crankworx, it made my wonder why they bother.
Posted by cam@nsmb.com at 10:15 PM on 06-06-2011
So Connor are you the same in person as you are online?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by connor
(Post 2531461)
Look at my sig and search ridemonkey. douche.
|
Posted by rewoga at 10:28 PM on 06-06-2011
from ride monkey...
Holy fack Tim - you went against the internetz!!!
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/2/1362599_02bcdea730.jpg
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by shirk
(Post 2530183)
|
Quote:
|
I think that review is pretty bogus as it goes against every other review on the internet and from all that I've heard from trusted friends. |
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/2/1362599_02bcdea730.jpg
Posted by connor at 05:59 AM on 06-07-2011
oh common.. I wasn't talking about Cam.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Couch_Surfer
(Post 2531513)
Wow, really? Cam's always seemed like a good guy to me.
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Posted by connor at 06:05 AM on 06-07-2011
I can admit when I am wrong, unlike Mr. W.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com
(Post 2531604)
So Connor are you the same in person as you are online?
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Posted by PUNKY at 08:51 AM on 06-07-2011
Any word on when he DW-RFX is going to be released now?
Any word on when he DW-RFX is going to be released now?
Posted by craw at 08:56 AM on 06-07-2011
They've been talking about this bike for years. I wouldn't be putting any deposits down.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PUNKY
(Post 2531684)
Any word on when he DW-RFX is going to be released now?
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Posted by Timmigrant at 12:57 PM on 06-07-2011
http://www.dailyhaggis.com/wp-conten...9/08/o_rly.jpg
I actually have no idea what the history of the bike I rode was. How do you lot find out the history of these bikes anyways? You guys must just be a whole more resourceful than I am. Next time I chat with the distributor I'll ask him what the history of the bike is, could be some good info to add. If you check out the photos in the review the frame and fork have minimal marks and scratches on them. The frame itself actually looked pretty new when I got the bike.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Da Peach
(Post 2531593)
The bike in question had been in circulation for some time, so who knows what the hell it had been through.
|
I actually have no idea what the history of the bike I rode was. How do you lot find out the history of these bikes anyways? You guys must just be a whole more resourceful than I am. Next time I chat with the distributor I'll ask him what the history of the bike is, could be some good info to add. If you check out the photos in the review the frame and fork have minimal marks and scratches on them. The frame itself actually looked pretty new when I got the bike.
Posted by biggles604 at 01:12 PM on 06-07-2011
I still think it's Turner's responsibility to check in on the bikes that are doing the review circuit. I know it's logistically difficult to do, but to send a bike otu there with no follow up can cause problems like you see here, and does show a lack of foresight/details on their behalf IMO.
That said. I don't think with a brand like Turner, that any reviews, positive or negative, will really affect their sales, since they are a brand with a very loyal customer base that does more marketing than you could ever buy.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Timmigrant
(Post 2531820)
http://www.dailyhaggis.com/wp-conten...9/08/o_rly.jpg
I actually have no idea what the history of the bike I rode was. How do you lot find out the history of these bikes anyways? You guys must just be a whole more resourceful than I am. Next time I chat with the distributor I'll ask him what the history of the bike is, could be some good info to add. If you check out the photos in the review the frame and fork have minimal marks and scratches on them. The frame itself actually looked pretty new when I got the bike. |
That said. I don't think with a brand like Turner, that any reviews, positive or negative, will really affect their sales, since they are a brand with a very loyal customer base that does more marketing than you could ever buy.
Posted by shirk at 02:03 PM on 06-07-2011
I read this over on the Homer forum today.
It's actually pretty true. Riders that thought they needed a 160/170mm trail bike are starting to realize that 140mm bike with good angles will shred just as much.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PUNKY
(Post 2531684)
Any word on when he DW-RFX is going to be released now?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by toHELLuRIDE
(Post 8123842)
Sorry RFX but you've missed your window. Already outdated before you've been released.
|
Posted by 2CH at 02:26 PM on 06-07-2011
I'm curious to see how this plays out and if the second demo is any better than the first.
To be honest though I've never been a fan of Turners, only since the first broken frame I ever saw in person was a Turner so I guess it left a lasting impression... people sure seem to love them though.
I'm curious to see how this plays out and if the second demo is any better than the first.
To be honest though I've never been a fan of Turners, only since the first broken frame I ever saw in person was a Turner so I guess it left a lasting impression... people sure seem to love them though.
Posted by boomforeal at 02:38 PM on 06-07-2011
oh hell i thought i was the only one...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by shirk
(Post 2531830)
It's actually pretty true. Riders that thought they needed a 160/170mm trail bike are starting to realize that 140mm bike with good angles will shred just as much.
|
Posted by Da Peach at 04:12 PM on 06-07-2011
This.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by biggles604
(Post 2531824)
I still think it's Turner's responsibility to check in on the bikes that are doing the review circuit. I know it's logistically difficult to do, but to send a bike otu there with no follow up can cause problems like you see here, and does show a lack of foresight/details on their behalf IMO.
That said. I don't think with a brand like Turner, that any reviews, positive or negative, will really affect their sales, since they are a brand with a very loyal customer base that does more marketing than you could ever buy. |
Posted by Da Peach at 04:15 PM on 06-07-2011
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/w...onceivable.jpg
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Timmigrant
(Post 2531820)
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Posted by saint. at 05:21 PM on 06-18-2011
A friend just posted this on facebook... Think he was riding the WBP
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._5028665_n.jpg
A friend just posted this on facebook... Think he was riding the WBP
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._5028665_n.jpg
Posted by DaveM at 05:27 PM on 06-18-2011
don't post that on mtber or ridemonkey, you'll get beat up
don't post that on mtber or ridemonkey, you'll get beat up
Posted by biggles604 at 05:29 PM on 06-18-2011
He must have gone down hard, look how twisted up the fork is.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by saint.
(Post 2537678)
A friend just posted this on facebook... Think he was riding the WBP
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._5028665_n.jpg |
Posted by saint. at 05:35 PM on 06-18-2011
"just riding along, cased this random little jump and the whole thing crumbled."
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by biggles604
(Post 2537682)
He must have gone down hard, look how twisted up the fork is.
|
Posted by clownmitts at 05:46 PM on 06-18-2011
If he was riding his $6000 bike the right way this wouldn't have happened. What was the velocity of the bike? The angle of attack? Windspeed? Grade of the slope?
If he was riding his $6000 bike the right way this wouldn't have happened. What was the velocity of the bike? The angle of attack? Windspeed? Grade of the slope?
Posted by saint. at 06:11 PM on 06-18-2011
the funny thing is that this was his replacement frame after cracking his older turner frame.....
the funny thing is that this was his replacement frame after cracking his older turner frame.....
Posted by craw at 05:07 AM on 06-20-2011
I don't see what's to get upset about - that person opted for light weight over durability. Just because it's an expensive frame doesn't mean it's infinitely durable. Super-light DH bikes end in tears unless you're 140lbs geared up or only ride your bike on race day.
I don't see what's to get upset about - that person opted for light weight over durability. Just because it's an expensive frame doesn't mean it's infinitely durable. Super-light DH bikes end in tears unless you're 140lbs geared up or only ride your bike on race day.
Posted by shirk at 09:53 AM on 06-20-2011
I think I saw that guy riding the park on Saturday.
The guy we saw riding the DHR looked like a intermediate rider. He actually looked kinda out of place on a new DHR.
I think I saw that guy riding the park on Saturday.
The guy we saw riding the DHR looked like a intermediate rider. He actually looked kinda out of place on a new DHR.
Posted by Ian Collins at 11:23 AM on 06-22-2011
So after reading this review and scratching my head for a while i decided to jump in here and give my two cents....
I'll preface this by saying i'm a pretty devout turner customer, and i own a 2011 DHR, in fact, it's my 9th DHR that i've owned. Now, brand loyalty aside, i also want to mention that I've been riding DH for almost 15 years, and I've ridden and owned countless setups. I'd like to think i'm pretty discerning when it comes to testing bikes out, and i've gotten to be quite perceptive in terms of suspension feel and setup. I'm not a pro racer but i'm no slouch either.
I have to say this writeup was pretty appalling to me. Any credibility the "review" could have had went out the window 1/4th of the way into the second paragraph when he made this statement..."...“anti-squat”, although I can’t figure out why these characteristics are good for a DH bike"
If Tim doesn't understand why anti squat would be a positive attribute for a DH bike, he probably shouldn't be writing reviews on them in the first place. It's common knowledge to the average downhill rider that you don't want a bike that dives/squats/wallows in it's travel. Pretty pathetic to slam an idea that you admittedly can't even conceptualize if you ask me....anyhow
The review goes on to state that "the DHR was harsher over high speed terrain than any of the DH bikes I’ve ridden recently"
this is the comment that made me feel the need to interject...First off, as i said before, i've ridden countless DH bikes pretty extensively, and while i am somewhat biased, i have to say that one of the DHR's most glowing attributes is it's ability to carry speed over rough fast hits...it does it brilliantly, better than anything i've ever ridden...the fact that tim's "review" stated the complete opposite of my findings, combined with some of his bizarre statements made me wonder if he really knew much about setting up his suspension...
so, seven pictures down i tripped on the picture i attached....
it may not look like much to the casual observer, but to me this picture is screaming bad suspension setup. Tim is braking on what looks like a mildly steep section, and there is only an inch and a half of stanchion showing. If his fork was set up properly it would be sitting up higher in the stroke, not diving from the effects of mild braking(running more low speed compression helps prevent this)...if I was braking down that section with my properly tuned compression settings i would have about 5 inches of stanchion showing....
seeing this picture made me really question the validity of his statements regarding the BIKES ability to handle rough terrain...I hate to sound cynical, but this seems like more of a case of user error. Tim goes on to say he tried the same shock on a different bike and it felt fine. Personally, from a review standpoint, that isn't really a good way to isolate variables and run testing...putting a different shock altogether or trying different settings makes more sense....if the reviewer had tried multiple shocks with multiple settings on this bike, and came to this conclusion, he might have a leg to stand on....
I also don't understand the bit about "lack of compatibility with all shocks"
the bike is compatible with all of these excellent dampers:
Fox
vivid
elka
cane creek
x fusion
BOS
avalanche
DSP
marzocchi
and more
the bike is incompatible with 1 shock, the Vivid Air, and to shed some light on that subject, the bike was designed around an early sample vivid air, and for production, after the DHR was already being produced, rock shox altered the damper and made it larger- thus making it unfit for the linkage
anyway, i just wanted to point out some of the ridiculous statements made in this review...here's a video of me on my DHR riding a pretty rocky local trail and managing to carry speed through the rough haggard sections just fine....the last 45 seconds is where it gets rowdy...
http://vimeo.com/24808491
So after reading this review and scratching my head for a while i decided to jump in here and give my two cents....
I'll preface this by saying i'm a pretty devout turner customer, and i own a 2011 DHR, in fact, it's my 9th DHR that i've owned. Now, brand loyalty aside, i also want to mention that I've been riding DH for almost 15 years, and I've ridden and owned countless setups. I'd like to think i'm pretty discerning when it comes to testing bikes out, and i've gotten to be quite perceptive in terms of suspension feel and setup. I'm not a pro racer but i'm no slouch either.
I have to say this writeup was pretty appalling to me. Any credibility the "review" could have had went out the window 1/4th of the way into the second paragraph when he made this statement..."...“anti-squat”, although I can’t figure out why these characteristics are good for a DH bike"
If Tim doesn't understand why anti squat would be a positive attribute for a DH bike, he probably shouldn't be writing reviews on them in the first place. It's common knowledge to the average downhill rider that you don't want a bike that dives/squats/wallows in it's travel. Pretty pathetic to slam an idea that you admittedly can't even conceptualize if you ask me....anyhow
The review goes on to state that "the DHR was harsher over high speed terrain than any of the DH bikes I’ve ridden recently"
this is the comment that made me feel the need to interject...First off, as i said before, i've ridden countless DH bikes pretty extensively, and while i am somewhat biased, i have to say that one of the DHR's most glowing attributes is it's ability to carry speed over rough fast hits...it does it brilliantly, better than anything i've ever ridden...the fact that tim's "review" stated the complete opposite of my findings, combined with some of his bizarre statements made me wonder if he really knew much about setting up his suspension...
so, seven pictures down i tripped on the picture i attached....
it may not look like much to the casual observer, but to me this picture is screaming bad suspension setup. Tim is braking on what looks like a mildly steep section, and there is only an inch and a half of stanchion showing. If his fork was set up properly it would be sitting up higher in the stroke, not diving from the effects of mild braking(running more low speed compression helps prevent this)...if I was braking down that section with my properly tuned compression settings i would have about 5 inches of stanchion showing....
seeing this picture made me really question the validity of his statements regarding the BIKES ability to handle rough terrain...I hate to sound cynical, but this seems like more of a case of user error. Tim goes on to say he tried the same shock on a different bike and it felt fine. Personally, from a review standpoint, that isn't really a good way to isolate variables and run testing...putting a different shock altogether or trying different settings makes more sense....if the reviewer had tried multiple shocks with multiple settings on this bike, and came to this conclusion, he might have a leg to stand on....
I also don't understand the bit about "lack of compatibility with all shocks"
the bike is compatible with all of these excellent dampers:
Fox
vivid
elka
cane creek
x fusion
BOS
avalanche
DSP
marzocchi
and more
the bike is incompatible with 1 shock, the Vivid Air, and to shed some light on that subject, the bike was designed around an early sample vivid air, and for production, after the DHR was already being produced, rock shox altered the damper and made it larger- thus making it unfit for the linkage
anyway, i just wanted to point out some of the ridiculous statements made in this review...here's a video of me on my DHR riding a pretty rocky local trail and managing to carry speed through the rough haggard sections just fine....the last 45 seconds is where it gets rowdy...
http://vimeo.com/24808491
Posted by GladePlayboy at 03:16 PM on 06-22-2011
Nice vid... the last section made me nauseous... your bike seems to be handling it pretty well.
Nice vid... the last section made me nauseous... your bike seems to be handling it pretty well.
Posted by J-Kwon at 03:28 PM on 06-22-2011
i've seen andrew twist fork more than that?
but it could be a possibility that the frame breaking had something to do with it twisting afterwards.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by biggles604
(Post 2537682)
He must have gone down hard, look how twisted up the fork is.
|
but it could be a possibility that the frame breaking had something to do with it twisting afterwards.
Posted by J-Kwon at 03:42 PM on 06-22-2011
I agree with your suspension set-up. But it doesn't make it right, Nico V ran his suspension very soft in his prime.
I think Tim's known for running a rather softer sag, and that's where he feels he is fastest at. It should still be a fair review because of the fact that his other bikes, and bike's he has reviewed had close sag %.
Having said that, i dont think you can judge someone's knowledge of suspension tuning based on ONE picture. Pictures dont show the gradient well, they also don't show speed, weight or other factors. It would be crazy to assume he doesn't have a good knowledge of suspension because only an inch of suspension is showing.
For instance, i was photographed by my friends and to my surprise, my fork only showed 1-2" when i was rolling down a one foot drop. I too ran my suspension very stiff/almost full compression.
regarding the roughness, i can't comment.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2539644)
So after reading this review and scratching my head for a while i decided to jump in here and give my two cents....
I'll preface this by saying i'm a pretty devout turner customer, and i own a 2011 DHR, in fact, it's my 9th DHR that i've owned. Now, brand loyalty aside, i also want to mention that I've been riding DH for almost 15 years, and I've ridden and owned countless setups. I'd like to think i'm pretty discerning when it comes to testing bikes out, and i've gotten to be quite perceptive in terms of suspension feel and setup. I'm not a pro racer but i'm no slouch either. I have to say this writeup was pretty appalling to me. Any credibility the "review" could have had went out the window 1/4th of the way into the second paragraph when he made this statement..."...“anti-squat”, although I can’t figure out why these characteristics are good for a DH bike" If Tim doesn't understand why anti squat would be a positive attribute for a DH bike, he probably shouldn't be writing reviews on them in the first place. It's common knowledge to the average downhill rider that you don't want a bike that dives/squats/wallows in it's travel. Pretty pathetic to slam an idea that you admittedly can't even conceptualize if you ask me....anyhow The review goes on to state that "the DHR was harsher over high speed terrain than any of the DH bikes I’ve ridden recently" this is the comment that made me feel the need to interject...First off, as i said before, i've ridden countless DH bikes pretty extensively, and while i am somewhat biased, i have to say that one of the DHR's most glowing attributes is it's ability to carry speed over rough fast hits...it does it brilliantly, better than anything i've ever ridden...the fact that tim's "review" stated the complete opposite of my findings, combined with some of his bizarre statements made me wonder if he really knew much about setting up his suspension... so, seven pictures down i tripped on the picture i attached.... it may not look like much to the casual observer, but to me this picture is screaming bad suspension setup. Tim is braking on what looks like a mildly steep section, and there is only an inch and a half of stanchion showing. If his fork was set up properly it would be sitting up higher in the stroke, not diving from the effects of mild braking(running more low speed compression helps prevent this)...if I was braking down that section with my properly tuned compression settings i would have about 5 inches of stanchion showing.... seeing this picture made me really question the validity of his statements regarding the BIKES ability to handle rough terrain...I hate to sound cynical, but this seems like more of a case of user error. Tim goes on to say he tried the same shock on a different bike and it felt fine. Personally, from a review standpoint, that isn't really a good way to isolate variables and run testing...putting a different shock altogether or trying different settings makes more sense....if the reviewer had tried multiple shocks with multiple settings on this bike, and came to this conclusion, he might have a leg to stand on.... I also don't understand the bit about "lack of compatibility with all shocks" the bike is compatible with all of these excellent dampers: Fox vivid elka cane creek x fusion BOS avalanche DSP marzocchi and more the bike is incompatible with 1 shock, the Vivid Air, and to shed some light on that subject, the bike was designed around an early sample vivid air, and for production, after the DHR was already being produced, rock shox altered the damper and made it larger- thus making it unfit for the linkage anyway, i just wanted to point out some of the ridiculous statements made in this review...here's a video of me on my DHR riding a pretty rocky local trail and managing to carry speed through the rough haggard sections just fine....the last 45 seconds is where it gets rowdy... http://vimeo.com/24808491 |
I agree with your suspension set-up. But it doesn't make it right, Nico V ran his suspension very soft in his prime.
I think Tim's known for running a rather softer sag, and that's where he feels he is fastest at. It should still be a fair review because of the fact that his other bikes, and bike's he has reviewed had close sag %.
Having said that, i dont think you can judge someone's knowledge of suspension tuning based on ONE picture. Pictures dont show the gradient well, they also don't show speed, weight or other factors. It would be crazy to assume he doesn't have a good knowledge of suspension because only an inch of suspension is showing.
For instance, i was photographed by my friends and to my surprise, my fork only showed 1-2" when i was rolling down a one foot drop. I too ran my suspension very stiff/almost full compression.
regarding the roughness, i can't comment.
Posted by flume at 03:49 PM on 06-22-2011
I think his point is anti-squat relates to pedalling acceleration and you dont need to pedal a DH bike too much, so it's not working very often. Sounds fair to me.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2539644)
If Tim doesn't understand why anti squat would be a positive attribute for a DH bike, he probably shouldn't be writing reviews on them in the first place. It's common knowledge to the average downhill rider that you don't want a bike that dives/squats/wallows in it's travel. Pretty pathetic to slam an idea that you admittedly can't even conceptualize if you ask me....anyhow
|
Posted by Sharon at 04:11 PM on 06-22-2011
DH RACER SHOW DOWN SMACKDOWN! Ian, come up to Vancouver and go head to head with TIM!
That would be great!
DH RACER SHOW DOWN SMACKDOWN! Ian, come up to Vancouver and go head to head with TIM!
That would be great!
Posted by Bryan at 04:16 PM on 06-22-2011
Considering how the rear suspension appears to be somewhere deep into it's travel, I'm gonna guess that Tim is not just braking on a midly steep section. Pretty hard to judge from such a tight picture.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2539644)
it may not look like much to the casual observer, but to me this picture is screaming bad suspension setup. Tim is braking on what looks like a mildly steep section, and there is only an inch and a half of stanchion showing. If his fork was set up properly it would be sitting up higher in the stroke, not diving from the effects of mild braking(running more low speed compression helps prevent this)...if I was braking down that section with my properly tuned compression settings i would have about 5 inches of stanchion showing....
|
Posted by MJM at 04:30 PM on 06-22-2011
Hi Ian,
Welcome to NSMB, how nice of you to share your opinion. I am sure Tim does not need anyone to defend him, but since he is likely riding his bike or at work as a mechanical engineer (source http://www.timcoleman.ca/?page_id=2). A bike racer with an engineering degree seems pretty credible to me.
Hi Ian,
Welcome to NSMB, how nice of you to share your opinion. I am sure Tim does not need anyone to defend him, but since he is likely riding his bike or at work as a mechanical engineer (source http://www.timcoleman.ca/?page_id=2). A bike racer with an engineering degree seems pretty credible to me.
Posted by Dirk at 05:06 PM on 06-22-2011
Actually...Dave Weagle has somewhat co-opted the term "anti-squat" for his own uses. The idea of squat/anti-squat has been around a long while with regards to motorcyle suspension. What's the book...Tony Foale...
Here's Weagle's Take.
My problem with what Weagle has to say, and why I in no way fault Tim Coleman for his statement, is that all of Dave Weagles suspension theories seem to revolve around this theory of "mass transfer under acceleration". Now, I kind of stole my disdain for this theory from another far more successful bicycle engineer than myself. But his point...how quickly does a bicycle accelerate under a riders power? Relatively speaking, not very. When you've got a street bike accelerating from 0-60 in a couple of seconds, you're probably worried about how much effect this acceleration has on your suspension. When you're getting your bike up to 30-40 k in 10-15 seconds (by pedalling), it's not as much of an issue.
Most suspension bob on a bicycle comes from the up down motion of the rider, chain inputs, etc. If you were to isolate the effects of mass transfer/acceleration (say, by adding an electric motor, not pedalling, and accelerating away at the speed of a regular cyclist), I would expect that your suspension would compress a minor amount for a very short period of time (Weagle would probably disagree with me on this). But I firmly believe that the suspension is far more affected by the motion of the rider mashing on his pedals than on the effects of mass transfer.
So, I tend to stop paying attention when the terms "anti squat" and "mass transfer" come out with relation to bicycle suspension design. It's one theory and people are allowed to question it.
If we're talking about braking, that's a different story. Where does mass transfer due to high acceleration (negative in this case) come in to play on a mountain bike?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2539644)
If Tim doesn't understand why anti squat would be a positive attribute for a DH bike, he probably shouldn't be writing reviews on them in the first place. It's common knowledge to the average downhill rider that you don't want a bike that dives/squats/wallows in it's travel. Pretty pathetic to slam an idea that you admittedly can't even conceptualize if you ask me....anyhow
|
Here's Weagle's Take.
My problem with what Weagle has to say, and why I in no way fault Tim Coleman for his statement, is that all of Dave Weagles suspension theories seem to revolve around this theory of "mass transfer under acceleration". Now, I kind of stole my disdain for this theory from another far more successful bicycle engineer than myself. But his point...how quickly does a bicycle accelerate under a riders power? Relatively speaking, not very. When you've got a street bike accelerating from 0-60 in a couple of seconds, you're probably worried about how much effect this acceleration has on your suspension. When you're getting your bike up to 30-40 k in 10-15 seconds (by pedalling), it's not as much of an issue.
Most suspension bob on a bicycle comes from the up down motion of the rider, chain inputs, etc. If you were to isolate the effects of mass transfer/acceleration (say, by adding an electric motor, not pedalling, and accelerating away at the speed of a regular cyclist), I would expect that your suspension would compress a minor amount for a very short period of time (Weagle would probably disagree with me on this). But I firmly believe that the suspension is far more affected by the motion of the rider mashing on his pedals than on the effects of mass transfer.
So, I tend to stop paying attention when the terms "anti squat" and "mass transfer" come out with relation to bicycle suspension design. It's one theory and people are allowed to question it.
If we're talking about braking, that's a different story. Where does mass transfer due to high acceleration (negative in this case) come in to play on a mountain bike?
Posted by syncro at 05:28 PM on 06-22-2011
i think you linked to the wrong video, not sure where the rowdy part is. cool vid and trail tho none the less, it's something i'd like to rip on my xc hardtail bike.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2539644)
here's a video of me on my DHR riding a pretty rocky local trail and managing to carry speed through the rough haggard sections just fine....the last 45 seconds is where it gets rowdy...
http://vimeo.com/24808491 |
Posted by syncro at 05:31 PM on 06-22-2011
so very true. anybody that can't realize this or understand this concept doesn't know how to pedal a bicycle effectively.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dirk
(Post 2539831)
Most suspension bob on a bicycle comes from the up down motion of the rider, chain inputs, etc. If you were to isolate the effects of mass transfer/acceleration (say, by adding an electric motor, not pedalling, and accelerating away at the speed of a regular cyclist), I would expect that your suspension would compress a minor amount for a very short period of time (Weagle would probably disagree with me on this). But I firmly believe that the suspension is far more affected by the motion of the rider mashing on his pedals than on the effects of mass transfer.
|
Posted by clownmitts at 05:54 PM on 06-22-2011
It's really disturbing to see people disdain consumer advocacy to the lengths seen in this thread. I don't understand what benefit it is to anyone in the market for a $6000+ bike to write reviews that don't focus on its shortcomings. Why would anyone take such pride in their consumer purchases that they should feel the need to speak up and defend the honour of Dave Turner/Weagle? How are your hard earned dollars protected in this regard? If Tim thinks the bike isn't that good, it's not meant as a personal insult to anyone who disagrees and decides to spend the money on the DHR regardless.
It's really disturbing to see people disdain consumer advocacy to the lengths seen in this thread. I don't understand what benefit it is to anyone in the market for a $6000+ bike to write reviews that don't focus on its shortcomings. Why would anyone take such pride in their consumer purchases that they should feel the need to speak up and defend the honour of Dave Turner/Weagle? How are your hard earned dollars protected in this regard? If Tim thinks the bike isn't that good, it's not meant as a personal insult to anyone who disagrees and decides to spend the money on the DHR regardless.
Posted by boomforeal at 06:19 PM on 06-22-2011
http://cdn03.cdn.socialitelife.com/w...this-small.jpg
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by clownmitts
(Post 2539856)
Why would anyone take such pride in their consumer purchases that they should feel the need to speak up and defend the honour of Dave Turner/Weagle? .
|
Posted by walleater at 09:09 PM on 06-22-2011
Re. the photo....it's the North Shore, so what you can't tell, is that he is dorpping 20ft to falt off a skinny (just out of shot).
Re. the photo....it's the North Shore, so what you can't tell, is that he is dorpping 20ft to falt off a skinny (just out of shot).
Posted by scosh at 09:24 PM on 06-22-2011
I was about 20 seconds behind this guy when that happened and heard it break. It was on Schleyer on the last little jump on the run out to the road. He cased it a bit and the bike broke in half. Surprisingly he walked away with barely a scratch. He said it was his fourth ride on the frame. Pretty crazy to see.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by saint.
(Post 2537678)
A friend just posted this on facebook... Think he was riding the WBP
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._5028665_n.jpg |
Posted by Ian Collins at 10:07 PM on 06-22-2011
really?
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Originally Posted by flume
(Post 2539795)
you dont need to pedal a DH bike too much
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Posted by Ian Collins at 10:14 PM on 06-22-2011
that's all well and good, but all the more reason he should be writing reviews that are more detailed and technically based....
i don't care if the guy is a mechanical engineer, that doesn't guarantee he's an intelligent person....
i was annoyed because this "review" straight up misinforms people....he alluded to the fact that the bike isn't compatible with most shocks, when in fact it's compatible with every shock on the market except one...please enlighten me and tell me how being a mechanical engineer gives him some sort of infallible credibility where he can't be called out on that matter??
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Originally Posted by MJM
(Post 2539813)
Hi Ian,
Welcome to NSMB, how nice of you to share your opinion. I am sure Tim does not need anyone to defend him, but since he is likely riding his bike or at work as a mechanical engineer (source http://www.timcoleman.ca/?page_id=2). A bike racer with an engineering degree seems pretty credible to me. |
i don't care if the guy is a mechanical engineer, that doesn't guarantee he's an intelligent person....
i was annoyed because this "review" straight up misinforms people....he alluded to the fact that the bike isn't compatible with most shocks, when in fact it's compatible with every shock on the market except one...please enlighten me and tell me how being a mechanical engineer gives him some sort of infallible credibility where he can't be called out on that matter??
Posted by Ian Collins at 10:20 PM on 06-22-2011
i completely agree with you on this note....i think that in general the bike's chassis stays very stable and fixed under all types of mass transfer, whether it's cause by braking, cornering, jumping, pedalling....i know very little about kinematics, and it's seems you're pretty well informed, but i do know that the bike tends be very stable, it resists excessive pitch and roll better than anything i've ever ridden....
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Originally Posted by Dirk
(Post 2539831)
But I firmly believe that the suspension is far more affected by the motion of the rider mashing on his pedals than on the effects of mass transfer.
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Posted by Ian Collins at 10:22 PM on 06-22-2011
welp, you're clearly a joke...i'd love to watch you destroy yourself and your "xc hardtail" on this trail...
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Originally Posted by syncro
(Post 2539839)
i think you linked to the wrong video, not sure where the rowdy part is. cool vid and trail tho none the less, it's something i'd like to rip on my xc hardtail bike.
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Posted by syncro at 10:27 PM on 06-22-2011
yeah i was yanking your chain - but i was also being serious about ripping that on the xc bike. i'm sure i'm not the only one either. then again, it might be the video doesn't do the trail justice, kinda like the pic of tim you were talking about.
from my perspective i have ridden harder shit on my xc bike, with the seat half way up. the bike is a med kona explosif with marz mx comp 4" air fork on the front, sun ditch with rims and hayes nines with 6" rotors in case you were wondering.
*edit*
that pic you've attached, if it's the same trail, shows something a lot different that what's seen in the vid. that said, i'd still give er a go on the hardtail.
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Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2540008)
welp, you're clearly a joke...i'd love to watch you destroy yourself and your "xc hardtail" on this trail...
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from my perspective i have ridden harder shit on my xc bike, with the seat half way up. the bike is a med kona explosif with marz mx comp 4" air fork on the front, sun ditch with rims and hayes nines with 6" rotors in case you were wondering.
*edit*
that pic you've attached, if it's the same trail, shows something a lot different that what's seen in the vid. that said, i'd still give er a go on the hardtail.
Posted by Ian Collins at 10:32 PM on 06-22-2011
i think you misunderstood me....i don't take any personal insult whatsoever, and i realize that nothing is infallible, and serious scrutiny results in a better product in the end...what annoyed me is that this "review" wasn't very technically based, and it was very misinforming....
Tim complained about the fork hurting his hands so he switched to his "beloved" 888, then slammed the frame that he was supposed to be reviewing because he couldn't set the shock up to work favorably....just as he didn't take the time to set the fork up(he wrote it off instead) he also probably didn't take much time trying different shock setups, and also misinformed readers about compatibility with certain shocks...
if anyone else reviewing this frame had similar findings, then maybe there would be some merit in his review, but all in all the DHR has had nothing but rave reviews, particularly regarding the rear suspensions performance....it's not about the fact that he thinks it "isn't that good" it's that he didn't do his job correctly in reviewing it and testing it, and he made some hasty conclusions....
he also said "the DHR was harsher over high speed terrain than any of the DH bikes I’ve ridden recently" ....to me, that's pretty vague....he should enlighten us and go into detail if he wants to retain any credibility...
anyhow, i'm not personally bent, i just think it was a pretty lame review....
Quote:
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Originally Posted by clownmitts
(Post 2539856)
It's really disturbing to see people disdain consumer advocacy to the lengths seen in this thread. I don't understand what benefit it is to anyone in the market for a $6000+ bike to write reviews that don't focus on its shortcomings. Why would anyone take such pride in their consumer purchases that they should feel the need to speak up and defend the honour of Dave Turner/Weagle? How are your hard earned dollars protected in this regard? If Tim thinks the bike isn't that good, it's not meant as a personal insult to anyone who disagrees and decides to spend the money on the DHR regardless.
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Tim complained about the fork hurting his hands so he switched to his "beloved" 888, then slammed the frame that he was supposed to be reviewing because he couldn't set the shock up to work favorably....just as he didn't take the time to set the fork up(he wrote it off instead) he also probably didn't take much time trying different shock setups, and also misinformed readers about compatibility with certain shocks...
if anyone else reviewing this frame had similar findings, then maybe there would be some merit in his review, but all in all the DHR has had nothing but rave reviews, particularly regarding the rear suspensions performance....it's not about the fact that he thinks it "isn't that good" it's that he didn't do his job correctly in reviewing it and testing it, and he made some hasty conclusions....
he also said "the DHR was harsher over high speed terrain than any of the DH bikes I’ve ridden recently" ....to me, that's pretty vague....he should enlighten us and go into detail if he wants to retain any credibility...
anyhow, i'm not personally bent, i just think it was a pretty lame review....
Posted by clarklewis at 10:34 PM on 06-22-2011
this thread is finally getting interesting!
ian, tim is a good rider and a pretty bright guy.
you may also be surprised what we ride up here on hardtails.
if that frame broke on the little schleyer drop, even landed flat (about 8 feet as i recall), well that's just scary.
this thread is finally getting interesting!
ian, tim is a good rider and a pretty bright guy.
you may also be surprised what we ride up here on hardtails.
if that frame broke on the little schleyer drop, even landed flat (about 8 feet as i recall), well that's just scary.
Posted by Ian Collins at 10:36 PM on 06-22-2011
yeah, who cares, so can i, but ...you can't ride it FAST on a hardtail....period....that's like saying you can drive through a rally course in a stock honda civic....no one gives a shit if you can get through it....it's not about whether it's doable or not...what the hell do xc bikes and your kewl 6" rotors have to do with this discussion?
edit: thanks for clarifying what size your frame is...that's super important....and yes, it's the same exact trail
Quote:
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Originally Posted by syncro
(Post 2540015)
yeah i was yanking your chain - but i was also being serious about ripping that on the xc bike. i'm sure i'm not the only one either. then again, it might be the video doesn't do the trail justice, kinda like the pic of tim you were talking about.
from my perspective i have ridden harder shit on my xc bike, with the seat half way up. the bike is a med kona explosif with marz mx comp 4" air fork on the front, sun ditch with rims and hayes nines with 6" rotors in case you were wondering. |
edit: thanks for clarifying what size your frame is...that's super important....and yes, it's the same exact trail
Posted by Ian Collins at 10:41 PM on 06-22-2011
i'm not doubting his skills as a rider, i'm just a weary of his skills as a credible bike reviewer....
as for the north shore, i know what people do on hardtails there, i grew up riding plattekill NY and i've ridden the steepest gnarliest trails there on a hardtail, it doesn't make it cool OR fun though...we're discussing the merits of DH suspension, not getting involved in a dick waving match and talking about how cool denying technology is(riding HT's on DH terrain)
as far as the bike breaking, i know nothing about it other than the fact that the fork is twisted and bent to hell, and it takes alot more than an 8 foot drop to do that to that fork....
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Originally Posted by clarklewis
(Post 2540022)
this thread is finally getting interesting!
ian, tim is a good rider and a pretty bright guy. you may also be surprised what we ride up here on hardtails. if that frame broke on the little schleyer drop, even landed flat (about 8 feet as i recall), well that's just scary. |
as for the north shore, i know what people do on hardtails there, i grew up riding plattekill NY and i've ridden the steepest gnarliest trails there on a hardtail, it doesn't make it cool OR fun though...we're discussing the merits of DH suspension, not getting involved in a dick waving match and talking about how cool denying technology is(riding HT's on DH terrain)
as far as the bike breaking, i know nothing about it other than the fact that the fork is twisted and bent to hell, and it takes alot more than an 8 foot drop to do that to that fork....
Posted by BurkeMtnRider at 10:41 PM on 06-22-2011
cool video bro, can you sign my mousepad?
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Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2539644)
anyway, i just wanted to point out some of the ridiculous statements made in this review...here's a video of me on my DHR riding a pretty rocky local trail and managing to carry speed through the rough haggard sections just fine....the last 45 seconds is where it gets rowdy...
http://vimeo.com/24808491 |
Posted by syncro at 10:45 PM on 06-22-2011
it has to do with you basing a large part of your argument on one shot of tim's riding. the point is that the one shot provides little context as to what's happening on the trail. this is just like your helmet cam vid of the trail you're riding.
you call the trail rowdy and use it to prop up your argument about how great the dhr is, yet from your video the trail looks quite smooth and rideable at speed on a hardtail. based on that, your evidence provides no suitable basis to say how well the dhr handles rough terrain.
perspective my friend, perspective.
right now my perspective says you look like an ass.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2540024)
yeah, who cares, so can i, but ...you can't ride it FAST on a hardtail....period....that's like saying you can drive through a rally course in a stock honda civic....no one gives a shit if you can get through it....it's not about whether it's doable or not...what the hell do xc bikes and your kewl 6" rotors have to do with this discussion?
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you call the trail rowdy and use it to prop up your argument about how great the dhr is, yet from your video the trail looks quite smooth and rideable at speed on a hardtail. based on that, your evidence provides no suitable basis to say how well the dhr handles rough terrain.
perspective my friend, perspective.
right now my perspective says you look like an ass.
Posted by syncro at 10:50 PM on 06-22-2011
i disagree. i like riding steep gnarly trails on a hardtail because it's a very different type of challenge and i find it a lot of fun. i don't really care whether people think it's cool or not.
again, it's about persepctive and from the perspective your argument was presented it failed.
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Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2540030)
i've ridden the steepest gnarliest trails there on a hardtail, it doesn't make it cool OR fun though...
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i disagree. i like riding steep gnarly trails on a hardtail because it's a very different type of challenge and i find it a lot of fun. i don't really care whether people think it's cool or not.
again, it's about persepctive and from the perspective your argument was presented it failed.
Posted by Ian Collins at 10:53 PM on 06-22-2011
from my perspective i think you took that ONE comment about that ONE picture a little too seriously, and you probably didn't get the point i was trying to make....overall the review misinforms people in more than one way, end of story.
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Originally Posted by syncro
(Post 2540035)
it has to do with you basing a large part of your argument on one shot of tim's riding. the point is that the one shot provides little context as to what's happening on the trail.
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Posted by Hard Tack at 10:54 PM on 06-22-2011
Im the kind of guy that builds his own damping assemblies for forks and shocks.
That being said,tim s one of the few riders who seems to have a good idea of what is going on underneath him.
In short,as someone who designs and builds hydraulic systems,I trust and value his judgement.
I suspect he ended up with a clapped out shock and fork. The kids at Turner have been refining great designs for years,,,,there's no way they would build a dh bike that is a turd.
Hope the review part 2 is much better
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2540020)
i think you misunderstood me....i don't take any personal insult whatsoever, and i realize that nothing is infallible, and serious scrutiny results in a better product in the end...what annoyed me is that this "review" wasn't very technically based, and it was very misinforming....
Tim complained about the fork hurting his hands so he switched to his "beloved" 888, then slammed the frame that he was supposed to be reviewing because he couldn't set the shock up to work favorably....just as he didn't take the time to set the fork up(he wrote it off instead) he also probably didn't take much time trying different shock setups, and also misinformed readers about compatibility with certain shocks... if anyone else reviewing this frame had similar findings, then maybe there would be some merit in his review, but all in all the DHR has had nothing but rave reviews, particularly regarding the rear suspensions performance....it's not about the fact that he thinks it "isn't that good" it's that he didn't do his job correctly in reviewing it and testing it, and he made some hasty conclusions.... he also said "the DHR was harsher over high speed terrain than any of the DH bikes I’ve ridden recently" ....to me, that's pretty vague....he should enlighten us and go into detail if he wants to retain any credibility... anyhow, i'm not personally bent, i just think it was a pretty lame review.... |
That being said,tim s one of the few riders who seems to have a good idea of what is going on underneath him.
In short,as someone who designs and builds hydraulic systems,I trust and value his judgement.
I suspect he ended up with a clapped out shock and fork. The kids at Turner have been refining great designs for years,,,,there's no way they would build a dh bike that is a turd.
Hope the review part 2 is much better
Posted by Ian Collins at 10:57 PM on 06-22-2011
well, the reason i jumped in is because if he's a discerning tester/rider he should have known this and made more of an effort to give the bike a shot with different suspension rather than hastily write a review that slams it....if he is a sharp guy, he should have known better, that's all
edit, i can also tell you with absolute conviction that if he called turner and said, hey ya know, this fork and shock feel a little whacky, they would have mailed him new suspension right away
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hard Tack
(Post 2540041)
I trust and value his judgement.
I suspect he ended up with a clapped out shock and fork. |
edit, i can also tell you with absolute conviction that if he called turner and said, hey ya know, this fork and shock feel a little whacky, they would have mailed him new suspension right away
Posted by syncro at 11:02 PM on 06-22-2011
i will partially agree with you here because as i read tim's review i also found it to be soft. for me, the fact that he took the time to test the shock cleared up some of the doubt. the fact that he tried different settings, incl those recommended by weagle also cleared up some of the doubt.
for you the dhr might be a great bike, for other's their riding style and preference may make it less desirable. imo differing opinions of a product only benefit the consumer to be able to make an informed decision about their prospective purchase.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2540039)
from my perspective i think you took that ONE comment about that ONE picture a little too seriously, and you probably didn't get the point i was trying to make....overall the review misinforms people in more than one way, end of story.
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for you the dhr might be a great bike, for other's their riding style and preference may make it less desirable. imo differing opinions of a product only benefit the consumer to be able to make an informed decision about their prospective purchase.
Posted by Hard Tack at 11:08 PM on 06-22-2011
A tester also plays the role of consumer,the product should be ready to rock when set to the manufacturers specs.
If it isnt,Turne and his distributer need to set a meeting....
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2540046)
well, the reason i jumped in is because if he's a discerning tester/rider he should have known this and made more of an effort to give the bike a shot with different suspension rather than hastily write a review that slams it....if he is a sharp guy, he should have known better, that's all
edit, i can also tell you with absolute conviction that if he called turner and said, hey ya know, this fork and shock feel a little whacky, they would have mailed him new suspension right away |
If it isnt,Turne and his distributer need to set a meeting....
Posted by Ian Collins at 11:13 PM on 06-22-2011
agreed, but by the looks of the bike i think it was a demo bike and the overall feel of the review was that he didn't put much effort into setting the suspension up, and he made vague comparisons to un named bikes...pretty weak if you ask me
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hard Tack
(Post 2540056)
A tester also plays the role of consumer,the product should be ready to rock when set to the manufacturers specs.
If it isnt,Turne and his distributer need to set a meeting.... |
Posted by syncro at 11:16 PM on 06-22-2011
just to clarify what you wrote:
so uhhmmm, yeah, from your comments it appears that you use that one picture and those two comments about it to solidify your entire argument that tim doesn't know how to set-up the suspension on his bikes and therefore is unable to effectively offer a review the dhr.
or am i getting that completely wrong here?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2540039)
from my perspective i think you took that ONE comment about that ONE picture a little too seriously, and you probably didn't get the point i was trying to make....overall the review misinforms people in more than one way, end of story.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2539644)
it may not look like much to the casual observer, but to me this picture is screaming bad suspension setup. Tim is braking on what looks like a mildly steep section, and there is only an inch and a half of stanchion showing. If his fork was set up properly it would be sitting up higher in the stroke, not diving from the effects of mild braking(running more low speed compression helps prevent this)...if I was braking down that section with my properly tuned compression settings i would have about 5 inches of stanchion showing.... seeing this picture made me really question the validity of his statements regarding the BIKES ability to handle rough terrain... |
or am i getting that completely wrong here?
Posted by strahan at 11:18 PM on 06-22-2011
nsmb vs. "ian collins"
nsmb vs. "ian collins"
Posted by Ian Collins at 11:20 PM on 06-22-2011
i agree with this, and i feel like a broken record, my gripe was that his review was vague, hasty to jump to conclusions, and not very technically based....for instance, just as an example, if he said words to the effect of this i would take him seriously: the bike hangs up in rough sections and didn't seem to carry speed that well compared to the santa cruz v10 i tested a couple weeks back; i only tested it with the stock RC4 i was provided with, perhaps a different damper would be better, or maybe the shock needed a rebuild, but overall it could stand to improve in that realm
instead he was obscure in his musings about suspension and seemed to be far more distracted by the fact that the bike needs a freaking fender and some chainstay protection(everyone knows that all DH bikes need this)
i'm checking out and getting some sleep...my whole point was that it was a weak review
Quote:
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Originally Posted by syncro
(Post 2540053)
for you the dhr might be a great bike, for other's their riding style and preference may make it less desirable. imo differing opinions of a product only benefit the consumer to be able to make an informed decision about their prospective purchase. |
instead he was obscure in his musings about suspension and seemed to be far more distracted by the fact that the bike needs a freaking fender and some chainstay protection(everyone knows that all DH bikes need this)
i'm checking out and getting some sleep...my whole point was that it was a weak review
Posted by Ian Collins at 11:30 PM on 06-22-2011
yes, that is solely and specifically what that big long rant i wrote was based on...you have excellent comprehension skills
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Originally Posted by syncro
(Post 2540062)
to solidify your entire argument
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Posted by syncro at 11:33 PM on 06-22-2011
see now i didn't get that at all, i got a entirely different feel where i thought he did a relatively good job of reviewing what he was given to ride. if the bike is pooched can you really blame the reviewer for not liking the way it rode?
the fact that i've never owned a dhr and don't really care about the brand one way or the other means i probably read the review with far less bias than you did.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2540066)
i agree with this, and i feel like a broken record, my gripe was that his review was vague, hasty to jump to conclusions, and not very technically based....for instance, just as an example, if he said words to the effect of this i would take him seriously: the bike hangs up in rough sections and didn't seem to carry speed that well compared to the santa cruz v10 i tested a couple weeks back; i only tested it with the stock RC4 i was provided with, perhaps a different damper would be better, or maybe the shock needed a rebuild, but overall it could stand to improve in that realm
instead he was obscure in his musings about suspension and seemed to be far more distracted by the fact that the bike needs a freaking fender and some chainstay protection(everyone knows that all DH bikes need this) i'm checking out and getting some sleep...my whole point was that it was a weak review |
the fact that i've never owned a dhr and don't really care about the brand one way or the other means i probably read the review with far less bias than you did.
Posted by syncro at 11:35 PM on 06-22-2011
i got that the rant was about poor suspension set-up and calling into question the reviewer's ability to asses the bike based on how he didn't know how to set up the bike.
my reading comprehension is fine, but i think your bias of your love for this bike is getting in the way of yours.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2540067)
yes, that is solely and specifically what that big long rant i wrote was based on...you have excellent comprehension skills
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my reading comprehension is fine, but i think your bias of your love for this bike is getting in the way of yours.
Posted by Ian Collins at 11:42 PM on 06-22-2011
no one even knows if the bike was "pooched" or not, but you're already speaking as if it was...all in all, i would not judge a bike until i had it set up to my personal liking and i spent some serious time on it...that's MY WHOLE POINT!
...clearly you and i rationalize differently...i should have realized this when you started babbling about riding downhill on hardtails...people don't ride moto tracks on circa 1970's hardtail harleys and if i met someone who did, i would probably have a hard time relating to them
Quote:
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Originally Posted by syncro
(Post 2540070)
if the bike is pooched can you reall blame the reviewer for not liking the way it rode?
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...clearly you and i rationalize differently...i should have realized this when you started babbling about riding downhill on hardtails...people don't ride moto tracks on circa 1970's hardtail harleys and if i met someone who did, i would probably have a hard time relating to them
Posted by biggles604 at 11:48 PM on 06-22-2011
Ian: If the review was about a bike that you don't have a personal interest in, then what would your reaction be? Probably fairly neutral. You are just sounding like a fanboy right now. Tim didn't have much luck on the bike, he admitted that the suspension was probably in need of a service, which is really besides the point. Turner should be right on the demo fleet making sure that it's going to offer the best experience possible, to do anything else is just showing laziness or a lack of attention to detail.
Also, Tim's re-reviewing the bike with a serviced set of suspension to make sure that it wasn't the bike.
Barging into a forum and arguing with the members isn't a good way to get a lot of respect, or to make people listen on any forum.
Ian: If the review was about a bike that you don't have a personal interest in, then what would your reaction be? Probably fairly neutral. You are just sounding like a fanboy right now. Tim didn't have much luck on the bike, he admitted that the suspension was probably in need of a service, which is really besides the point. Turner should be right on the demo fleet making sure that it's going to offer the best experience possible, to do anything else is just showing laziness or a lack of attention to detail.
Also, Tim's re-reviewing the bike with a serviced set of suspension to make sure that it wasn't the bike.
Barging into a forum and arguing with the members isn't a good way to get a lot of respect, or to make people listen on any forum.
Posted by syncro at 11:52 PM on 06-22-2011
nice, we come full circle to your reading comprehension point. your whole point was about set-up was it? did you miss the lines in the article where tim talks about set-up?
ps - i also have a dh bike that i ride (and an am bike if it matters) and enjoy differently than the hardtail and i rationalize my experience on both bikes differently. the only reason the hardtail refernece even came into the subject was, as i said more than once, your video did not show a rowdy trail. it showed something relatively smooth that did not require a dh bike to rip down on. your trail example nullified itself because it looked like pretty mellow riding.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2540076)
no one even knows if the bike was "pooched" or not, but you're already speaking as if it was...all in all, i would not judge a bike until i had it set up to my personal liking and i spent some serious time on it...that's MY WHOLE POINT!
...clearly you and i rationalize differently...i should have realized this when you started babbling about riding downhill on hardtails...people don't ride moto tracks on circa 1970's hardtail harleys and if i met someone who did, i would probably have a hard time relating to them |
Quote:
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I looked at Dave Weagel’s set up suggestions and noticed that his recommendations were to substantially reduce the compression damping, lower the Boost Valve pressure to near minimum and maximize the Boost Valve volume. In the time I had the DHR I scoured forums for setup tips... |
Posted by syncro at 11:59 PM on 06-22-2011
oh look! seems like i was right in assesing what your "rant" was about then.
what were you saying about reading comprehension again?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2540076)
all in all, i would not judge a bike until i had it set up to my personal liking and i spent some serious time on it...that's MY WHOLE POINT!
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by syncro
(Post 2540071)
i got that the rant was about poor suspension set-up and calling into question the reviewer's ability to asses the bike based on how he didn't know how to set up the bike.
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Posted by Ian Collins at 12:06 AM on 06-23-2011
if it was about another bike i would aslo dismiss him as unfit for reviewing bikes...for example, i think mountain bike action is a joke primarily because their bike reviews are so pathetic...would i carry on like this if it was about another bike? probably not to this extent, depends on the bike and the context, but i've definitely carried on about products i have no vested interest in sheerly out of principal....
i'm glad tim's re-reviewing the bike....hopefully he can take his time with it...
as for arguing with people, i know i can be abrasive, but it takes two, and some of the responses i elicited were pretty ludicrous....
Quote:
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Originally Posted by biggles604
(Post 2540080)
Ian: If the review was about a bike that you don't have a personal interest in, then what would your reaction be? Probably fairly neutral. You are just sounding like a fanboy right now. Tim didn't have much luck on the bike, he admitted that the suspension was probably in need of a service, which is really besides the point. Turner should be right on the demo fleet making sure that it's going to offer the best experience possible, to do anything else is just showing laziness or a lack of attention to detail.
Also, Tim's re-reviewing the bike with a serviced set of suspension to make sure that it wasn't the bike. Barging into a forum and arguing with the members isn't a good way to get a lot of respect, or to make people listen on any forum. |
i'm glad tim's re-reviewing the bike....hopefully he can take his time with it...
as for arguing with people, i know i can be abrasive, but it takes two, and some of the responses i elicited were pretty ludicrous....
Posted by Tracer Tong at 12:09 AM on 06-23-2011
Whether the bike was pooched or not, it performed badly. So it got a bad review. How is this rocket science?
Whether the bike was pooched or not, it performed badly. So it got a bad review. How is this rocket science?
Posted by syncro at 12:42 AM on 06-23-2011
hahahaha - nice try there bub. you need to go back and have a serious look at how you waded into this mess. you reap what you sow.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2540093)
some of the responses i elicited were pretty ludicrous....
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Posted by J-Kwon at 02:08 AM on 06-23-2011
any bike CAN fail when you crash it.
but if that bike did fail after casing a jump in whistler(which arent too dramatic like stright drops/dirt jumps where there is a ledge).
i'd seriously not buy it, especially for 3g.
any bike CAN fail when you crash it.
but if that bike did fail after casing a jump in whistler(which arent too dramatic like stright drops/dirt jumps where there is a ledge).
i'd seriously not buy it, especially for 3g.
Posted by GladePlayboy at 06:34 AM on 06-23-2011
I would suspect that the failure of this particular frame had more to do than we are privileged to know.
I would suspect that the failure of this particular frame had more to do than we are privileged to know.
Posted by flume at 07:34 AM on 06-23-2011
Come one - we all know you'll probably see more broken bikes at Whistler than anywhere else, even if it's down to covering lots of vertical.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by J-Kwon
(Post 2540116)
any bike CAN fail when you crash it.
but if that bike did fail after casing a jump in whistler(which arent too dramatic like stright drops/dirt jumps where there is a ledge). i'd seriously not buy it, especially for 3g. |
Posted by kperras at 08:04 AM on 06-23-2011
Riot.
Riot.
Posted by craw at 08:05 AM on 06-23-2011
Has Turner made a contribution to this thread? I'd love to hear their comments.
Has Turner made a contribution to this thread? I'd love to hear their comments.
Posted by bigd at 08:18 AM on 06-23-2011
^^ very riotous in here.
^^ very riotous in here.
Posted by biggles604 at 09:03 AM on 06-23-2011
No you wouldn't dismiss him. Fact is, you came to this forum just to defend the DHR, which unfortunately makes you a fan boy and you lose a lot of credibility. If you had taken more time to read all the previous posts in this thread, you would see that everything you have asked about has already been resolved, and the conclusion was that the bike was shitkicked and Tim is having another look. The fact that he got a substandard bike to review in the first place reflects poorly upon the product in my eyes.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2540093)
if it was about another bike i would aslo dismiss him as unfit for reviewing bikes...for example, i think mountain bike action is a joke primarily because their bike reviews are so pathetic...would i carry on like this if it was about another bike? probably not to this extent, depends on the bike and the context, but i've definitely carried on about products i have no vested interest in sheerly out of principal....
i'm glad tim's re-reviewing the bike....hopefully he can take his time with it... as for arguing with people, i know i can be abrasive, but it takes two, and some of the responses i elicited were pretty ludicrous.... |
Posted by Jerry-Rig at 09:48 AM on 06-23-2011
I don't think "Ian Collins" actually read Tims review and based his whole argument on a picture. Tim is a mechanical engineer and a Pro DH'r so I'm pretty sure he knows how to set up suspension... actually it says in the review he followed DW's recommendation. Ian and the RideMonkey fanboys have their mind made up before even reading it and we all ride skinnies up here so the review is irrelevant for a DH bike. Steve Smith is probably American as well.
I don't think "Ian Collins" actually read Tims review and based his whole argument on a picture. Tim is a mechanical engineer and a Pro DH'r so I'm pretty sure he knows how to set up suspension... actually it says in the review he followed DW's recommendation. Ian and the RideMonkey fanboys have their mind made up before even reading it and we all ride skinnies up here so the review is irrelevant for a DH bike. Steve Smith is probably American as well.
Posted by DaveM at 09:55 AM on 06-23-2011
Ridemonkey has come along way in the past year or so. Some of them are even admitting to riding tires other than Minion DHF's. I think when the Ironhorse Sunday stopped production it left alot of sheeple to wander around without an opinion to quote and they found other things that actually worked.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jerry-Rig
(Post 2540203)
Ian and the RideMonkey fanboys have their mind made up before even reading it and we all ride skinnies up here so the review is irrelevant for a DH bike. Steve Smith is probably American as well.
|
Posted by *Pepe* at 10:58 AM on 06-23-2011
this notwithstanding, plus the fact the test bike should have been provided to him in excellent mechanical condition, i think continuing with the testing and review knowing there must be something obviously wrong given the quality of all DH bikes today wasn't his best decision. i would have brought the bike back to the distributor and asked them to sort it out before i continued testing. it's common courtesy and sense, to me.
an analogous situation happened to me recently when a subtrade tendered work and they obviously fucked up. rather than holding them to the quote, i called them to say something wasn't right and they should have another crack at it. in tim's case, he could have done the same thing, imho.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jerry-Rig
(Post 2540203)
Tim is a mechanical engineer and a Pro DH'r so I'm pretty sure he knows how to set up suspension... actually it says in the review he followed DW's recommendation.
|
an analogous situation happened to me recently when a subtrade tendered work and they obviously fucked up. rather than holding them to the quote, i called them to say something wasn't right and they should have another crack at it. in tim's case, he could have done the same thing, imho.
Posted by clownmitts at 11:06 AM on 06-23-2011
Look, you need to ask yourself why you care so much about a negative review of your favorite frame. Personally I don't care what anyone thinks about the bikes I own. I think there is definitely merit in reading criticism of the bikes that I own and I would take it into account the next time I spend $6000 on a bike. I have no compunctions about kicking a bike manufacturer or a bike shop to the curb if I deem that I am not getting value for my money. I don't think any smart consumer should either.
The state of mountain bike journalism is absolutely pathetic. It is impossible to tell what the quality of any product is because so many 'journalists' are reticent to criticize the products they're reviewing. Why is that? Is the bike industry that tightly knit that a negative review could put a journalist out of business? Do negative review ensure that a journalist will get blacklisted from testing future products? That is a far more insidious problem than obtaining the optimal clarity in the subjective observation of the riding characteristics of a bike.
Ferrari pulls this sort of shit and has done so since the F50 was released. I think it's worked well in their favour to exclude the public from reading any comprehensive reviews of their products because their brand and loyal following of consumers will keep buying their cars no matter how many of them spontaneously combust.
Is that what you want Turner to become?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ian Collins
(Post 2540020)
i think you misunderstood me....i don't take any personal insult whatsoever, and i realize that nothing is infallible, and serious scrutiny results in a better product in the end...what annoyed me is that this "review" wasn't very technically based, and it was very misinforming....
Tim complained about the fork hurting his hands so he switched to his "beloved" 888, then slammed the frame that he was supposed to be reviewing because he couldn't set the shock up to work favorably....just as he didn't take the time to set the fork up(he wrote it off instead) he also probably didn't take much time trying different shock setups, and also misinformed readers about compatibility with certain shocks... if anyone else reviewing this frame had similar findings, then maybe there would be some merit in his review, but all in all the DHR has had nothing but rave reviews, particularly regarding the rear suspensions performance....it's not about the fact that he thinks it "isn't that good" it's that he didn't do his job correctly in reviewing it and testing it, and he made some hasty conclusions.... he also said "the DHR was harsher over high speed terrain than any of the DH bikes I’ve ridden recently" ....to me, that's pretty vague....he should enlighten us and go into detail if he wants to retain any credibility... anyhow, i'm not personally bent, i just think it was a pretty lame review.... |
The state of mountain bike journalism is absolutely pathetic. It is impossible to tell what the quality of any product is because so many 'journalists' are reticent to criticize the products they're reviewing. Why is that? Is the bike industry that tightly knit that a negative review could put a journalist out of business? Do negative review ensure that a journalist will get blacklisted from testing future products? That is a far more insidious problem than obtaining the optimal clarity in the subjective observation of the riding characteristics of a bike.
Ferrari pulls this sort of shit and has done so since the F50 was released. I think it's worked well in their favour to exclude the public from reading any comprehensive reviews of their products because their brand and loyal following of consumers will keep buying their cars no matter how many of them spontaneously combust.
Is that what you want Turner to become?
Posted by Jerry-Rig at 11:14 AM on 06-23-2011
fail on Turner either way... they gave Tim a bad bike or the bike is just bad. 2nd review will decide the later in Tims opinion.
fail on Turner either way... they gave Tim a bad bike or the bike is just bad. 2nd review will decide the later in Tims opinion.
Posted by shirk at 11:21 AM on 06-23-2011
Perhaps the DHR-DW isn't really THAT bad...just that Tim has been riding other bikes that are THAT much better.
:idea:
Especially for the amount of money you need to pop down for a boutique frame.
Perhaps the DHR-DW isn't really THAT bad...just that Tim has been riding other bikes that are THAT much better.
:idea:
Especially for the amount of money you need to pop down for a boutique frame.
Posted by *Pepe* at 12:07 PM on 06-23-2011
do you really think the bike is as bad as he writes jerry? really? given all you know about about bikes these days?
i'd agree with you that turner failed by giving him a bad bike, but also fail on Tim too for not doing the courteous thing by telling them so.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jerry-Rig
(Post 2540248)
fail on Turner either way... they gave Tim a bad bike or the bike is just bad. 2nd review will decide the later in Tims opinion.
|
i'd agree with you that turner failed by giving him a bad bike, but also fail on Tim too for not doing the courteous thing by telling them so.
Posted by clownmitts at 12:16 PM on 06-23-2011
I don't understand. Are you suggesting that Tim should have censored his review until Turner provided a bike that he liked?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by *Pepe*
(Post 2540280)
do you really think the bike is as bad as he writes jerry? really? given all you know about about bikes these days?
i'd agree with you that turner failed by giving him a bad bike, but also fail on Tim too for not doing the courteous thing by telling them so. |
Posted by DaveM at 12:24 PM on 06-23-2011
no he's saying that if there was obviously an issue with the suspension needing to be serviced he should have returned the bike and not completed the review until the bike was delivered "as new" and I somewhat agree. This information could have been included in the final review. Shame on the distributor for releasing a beat up bike to a company to do a review on, wouldn't you want the bike in as good a condition as possible before handing it over?
bad press isn't always bad press.
Who isn't waiting for the final review with fresh suspension?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by clownmitts
(Post 2540284)
I don't understand. Are you suggesting that Tim should have censored his review until Turner provided a bike that he liked?
|
bad press isn't always bad press.
Who isn't waiting for the final review with fresh suspension?
Posted by *Pepe* at 12:25 PM on 06-23-2011
no, i'm saying he shouldn't have completed his review until he gave turner a shot of sorting something out that seems to me was flawed. if turner's response was that everything was in order, then all bets are off. it just seems to me he didn't give them the chance though i could be wrong.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by clownmitts
(Post 2540284)
I don't understand. Are you suggesting that Tim should have censored his review until Turner provided a bike that he liked?
|
Posted by syncro at 12:49 PM on 06-23-2011
for me this is what it comes down to; if you send a product out for testing it should represent what the consumer would buy off the shelf. if a company/distributor is negligent in doing that then they are setting themselves up for a bad review.
i agree with other's sentiments (including Ian Collins') that a tester should take some time to set-up the bike (as delivered) based on the manufacturer's recommendations. for me it is clear from the article that the tester did attempt to do that. he even went so far as to "scour forums for setup tips." i think it's laughable to suggest that a tester should be swapping out a number of different shocks/forks or having them serviced to properly evaluate the bike.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DaveM
(Post 2540286)
Shame on the distributor for releasing a beat up bike to a company to do a review on, wouldn't you want the bike in as good a condition as possible before handing it over?
bad press isn't always bad press. Who isn't waiting for the final review with fresh suspension? |
i agree with other's sentiments (including Ian Collins') that a tester should take some time to set-up the bike (as delivered) based on the manufacturer's recommendations. for me it is clear from the article that the tester did attempt to do that. he even went so far as to "scour forums for setup tips." i think it's laughable to suggest that a tester should be swapping out a number of different shocks/forks or having them serviced to properly evaluate the bike.
Posted by Tracer Tong at 01:20 PM on 06-23-2011
I think the fact that he contacted that DW entity to get recommended settings, and then tried them, is plenty of effort on set up. Can you imagine if everyone that bought a frame contacted the designer asking for the perfect set up settings? That would not fly.
I think the fact that he contacted that DW entity to get recommended settings, and then tried them, is plenty of effort on set up. Can you imagine if everyone that bought a frame contacted the designer asking for the perfect set up settings? That would not fly.
Posted by clarklewis at 01:49 PM on 06-23-2011
i suggested that earlier. its all downhill (pun intended) after coming off a session 88.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by shirk
(Post 2540252)
Perhaps the DHR-DW isn't really THAT bad...just that Tim has been riding other bikes that are THAT much better...
|
Posted by PUNKY at 04:56 PM on 06-23-2011
That's so Vancouver like
Quote:
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Originally Posted by kperras
(Post 2540157)
Riot.
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Posted by Dirk at 07:37 PM on 06-23-2011
Soooo....Extending this logic... All bikes are good these days, therefore, no reviews are necessary. The reviewer should just take the ad copy provided by the manufacturer and run with it. If anything doesn't agree, it's obviously the reviewers fault.
And if something is wrong. You should just try, try and then try again to make sure things turn out well for the manufacturer. Because...you know...it's probably your fault.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by *Pepe*
(Post 2540280)
do you really think the bike is as bad as he writes jerry? really? given all you know about about bikes these days?
i'd agree with you that turner failed by giving him a bad bike, but also fail on Tim too for not doing the courteous thing by telling them so. |
And if something is wrong. You should just try, try and then try again to make sure things turn out well for the manufacturer. Because...you know...it's probably your fault.
Posted by ryando at 07:59 PM on 06-23-2011
I personally cannot believe that NSMB dared to post this review. Do they not know that all mountain bike reviews are written to be copied directly into the manufacturer's advertisement campaigns? Did Tim not understand that he was not allowed to say anything significantly bad about this bike? Fools all of you! Why didn’t NSMB just prematurely throw this review into the trash so as not to offend anyone? (like some other internet site reviews...)
I personally cannot believe that NSMB dared to post this review. Do they not know that all mountain bike reviews are written to be copied directly into the manufacturer's advertisement campaigns? Did Tim not understand that he was not allowed to say anything significantly bad about this bike? Fools all of you! Why didn’t NSMB just prematurely throw this review into the trash so as not to offend anyone? (like some other internet site reviews...)
Posted by clownmitts at 08:13 PM on 06-23-2011
Then why are you guys disparaging Tim? What kind of business releases a broken product for review? How is this his fault?
Your defence of Turner is starting to get absurd.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DaveM
(Post 2540286)
no he's saying that if there was obviously an issue with the suspension needing to be serviced he should have returned the bike and not completed the review until the bike was delivered "as new" and I somewhat agree. This information could have been included in the final review. Shame on the distributor for releasing a beat up bike to a company to do a review on, wouldn't you want the bike in as good a condition as possible before handing it over?
bad press isn't always bad press. Who isn't waiting for the final review with fresh suspension? |
Your defence of Turner is starting to get absurd.
Posted by clownmitts at 08:16 PM on 06-23-2011
Pepe, this is a pathetic defence of Turner/assault on Tim. That's like a restaurant critic eating a meal at a restaurant, getting food poisoning, who returns for another meal to provide a positive review, because obviously the restaurant wasn't given a fair chance.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by *Pepe*
(Post 2540288)
no, i'm saying he shouldn't have completed his review until he gave turner a shot of sorting something out that seems to me was flawed. if turner's response was that everything was in order, then all bets are off. it just seems to me he didn't give them the chance though i could be wrong.
|
Posted by DaveM at 08:30 PM on 06-23-2011
I'm in no way disparaging Tim, he's a friend and I stand behind him 100%. He has forgotten more about suspension than I'll ever know. I'm just saying if I was him I wouldn't have even wasted my time testing a bike that was in poor shape.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by clownmitts
(Post 2540463)
Then why are you guys disparaging Tim? What kind of business releases a broken product for review? How is this his fault?
Your defence of Turner is starting to get absurd. |
Posted by syncro at 08:33 PM on 06-23-2011
totally agree.
if tim had made no effort to adjust the shock, not spent time researching how to set up the bike, not taken the time to sawp out the fork and not takne the time to take the shock off the bike and try it on something else then yeah, one could say he did a poor job of trying to review the bike fairly.
but from the article it's clear that he did all of those things.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by clownmitts
(Post 2540463)
Then why are you guys disparaging Tim? What kind of business releases a broken product for review? How is this his fault?
Your defence of Turner is starting to get absurd. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by clownmitts
(Post 2540464)
Pepe, this is a pathetic defence of Turner/assault on Tim. That's like a restaurant critic eating a meal at a restaurant, getting food poisoning, who returns for another meal to provide a positive review, because obviously the restaurant wasn't given a fair chance.
|
totally agree.
if tim had made no effort to adjust the shock, not spent time researching how to set up the bike, not taken the time to sawp out the fork and not takne the time to take the shock off the bike and try it on something else then yeah, one could say he did a poor job of trying to review the bike fairly.
but from the article it's clear that he did all of those things.
Posted by *Pepe* at 08:35 PM on 06-23-2011
please pour me what you're having because by your logic, if you get a apple to test and it turns out to be a lemon, then all lemons are apples. i don't know how you run your life, but i'd check to see if i was given the wrong fruit.
i didn't mean to imply it was the reviewer's fault because it seems to me he's giving an honest opinion. i'm just saying i would have handled things differently.
i also didn't write he should "just try, try and then try again to make sure things turn out well for the manufacturer." it baffles me you can infer this from what i wrote given you have, what, minutes to read my posts? should i type slower? i clearly wrote that he should maybe try once, and then it's game on.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dirk
(Post 2540452)
Soooo....Extending this logic... All bikes are good these days, therefore, no reviews are necessary. The reviewer should just take the ad copy provided by the manufacturer and run with it. If anything doesn't agree, it's obviously the reviewers fault.
And if something is wrong. You should just try, try and then try again to make sure things turn out well for the manufacturer. Because...you know...it's probably your fault. |
i didn't mean to imply it was the reviewer's fault because it seems to me he's giving an honest opinion. i'm just saying i would have handled things differently.
i also didn't write he should "just try, try and then try again to make sure things turn out well for the manufacturer." it baffles me you can infer this from what i wrote given you have, what, minutes to read my posts? should i type slower? i clearly wrote that he should maybe try once, and then it's game on.
Posted by *Pepe* at 08:45 PM on 06-23-2011
so by extension the restaurant critic should conclude that all meals from this restaurant cause food poisoning? that's not a reasonable conclusion for me.
you're also assuming tim is going to give a positive review the second time around. i'm not and i'm not suggesting he has any obligation to do so, but like the restaurant critic he might want to have another look if everyone else is saying the opposite.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by clownmitts
(Post 2540464)
Pepe, this is a pathetic defence of Turner/assault on Tim. That's like a restaurant critic eating a meal at a restaurant, getting food poisoning, who returns for another meal to provide a positive review, because obviously the restaurant wasn't given a fair chance.
|
you're also assuming tim is going to give a positive review the second time around. i'm not and i'm not suggesting he has any obligation to do so, but like the restaurant critic he might want to have another look if everyone else is saying the opposite.
Posted by syncro at 08:48 PM on 06-23-2011
i can agree with this.
mind you, i'd love to see the shitstorm that ensues if the review of the "good bike" comes back even worse than the first one :lol:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by *Pepe*
(Post 2540489)
you're also assuming tim is going to give a positive review the second time around. i'm not and i'm not suggesting he has any obligation to do so, but like the restaurant critic he might want to have another look if everyone else is saying the opposite.
|
mind you, i'd love to see the shitstorm that ensues if the review of the "good bike" comes back even worse than the first one :lol:
Posted by Kevin_m31 at 09:03 PM on 06-23-2011
Nah, why keep trying, pinkbike just goes for a ride, then copys and pastes the companies media blurb. Seems to work for them.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dirk
(Post 2540452)
Soooo....Extending this logic... All bikes are good these days, therefore, no reviews are necessary. The reviewer should just take the ad copy provided by the manufacturer and run with it. If anything doesn't agree, it's obviously the reviewers fault.
And if something is wrong. You should just try, try and then try again to make sure things turn out well for the manufacturer. Because...you know...it's probably your fault. |
Posted by clownmitts at 09:17 PM on 06-23-2011
Really, I didn't think Tim should have bothered with a second review. I've already stated in this thread that I think the state of mountain biking journalism is pathetic. An impartial observer, upon reading the reams of reviews of bike products might think that all the collective journalists are placating some sort of cartel.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by *Pepe*
(Post 2540489)
so by extension the restaurant critic should conclude that all meals from this restaurant cause food poisoning? that's not a reasonable conclusion for me.
you're also assuming tim is going to give a positive review the second time around. i'm not and i'm not suggesting he has any obligation to do so, but like the restaurant critic he might want to have another look if everyone else is saying the opposite. |
Posted by walleater at 09:23 PM on 06-23-2011
It'd be funny if it snapped in half.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by syncro
(Post 2540493)
mind you, i'd love to see the shitstorm that ensues if the review of the "good bike" comes back even worse than the first one :lol:
|
Posted by syncro at 09:30 PM on 06-23-2011
that would be epic! maybe after doing a 4ft drop to falt off the side of a skinny :lol:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by walleater
(Post 2540515)
It'd be funny if it snapped in half.
|
Posted by clownmitts at 09:37 PM on 06-23-2011
So which companies, to the best of everyone's knowledge, have not had photos of their products, snapped in half, posted on the web? Specialized? Trek?
So which companies, to the best of everyone's knowledge, have not had photos of their products, snapped in half, posted on the web? Specialized? Trek?
Posted by syncro at 09:45 PM on 06-23-2011
surly?
cromag?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by clownmitts
(Post 2540524)
So which companies, to the best of everyone's knowledge, have not had photos of their products, snapped in half, posted on the web? Specialized? Trek?
|
surly?
cromag?
Posted by Dirk at 09:36 AM on 06-24-2011
As Cam explained in another thread someplace. "It's Hyperbole".
You are suggesting something along the lines of "all bikes are so good these days something must have been wrong with the review" and you are suggesting that it's the reviewers duty to try to troubleshoot potential problems on the bike provided to him. If you extend out your logic, this is where you would end up. I think there are problems with both of your statements. I am using exaggeration to highlight why I have problems with your statements.
I did have a nice Mojito shortly before I wrote that statement. I don't think it had an impact on what I wrote.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by *Pepe*
(Post 2540477)
please pour me what you're having because by your logic, if you get a apple to test and it turns out to be a lemon, then all lemons are apples. i don't know how you run your life, but i'd check to see if i was given the wrong fruit.
i didn't mean to imply it was the reviewer's fault because it seems to me he's giving an honest opinion. i'm just saying i would have handled things differently. i also didn't write he should "just try, try and then try again to make sure things turn out well for the manufacturer." it baffles me you can infer this from what i wrote given you have, what, minutes to read my posts? should i type slower? i clearly wrote that he should maybe try once, and then it's game on. |
You are suggesting something along the lines of "all bikes are so good these days something must have been wrong with the review" and you are suggesting that it's the reviewers duty to try to troubleshoot potential problems on the bike provided to him. If you extend out your logic, this is where you would end up. I think there are problems with both of your statements. I am using exaggeration to highlight why I have problems with your statements.
I did have a nice Mojito shortly before I wrote that statement. I don't think it had an impact on what I wrote.
Posted by *Pepe* at 10:36 AM on 06-24-2011
roger that. i am not saying that bikes are 'so' good, but i am saying that chances are a bike from turner, who has developed a brand by reputation first and foremost, is probably going to be pretty good. likewise, i would expect a knolly, rocky, intense, specialized, trek, cove, etc., to also be pretty good given the time and effort they put into developing a frame these days. if a rider expects the bike to be good and it rides like crap, then either the bike really is crap or something is up based on the rider's pre-set expectations. before i get ripped on by suggesting expectations come into play, i believe they come into play with everything in life. i expect a mojito to taste like a damn good mojito, and a bike from a reputable manufacturer to be pretty good. a seasoned drinker or tester should pick up on this.
a bit of a disclaimer here: i've been testing product for various bike companies for upwards of 15 years. after all this time it's become a bit of skill. based on my experiences when i first read the article i thought something must be up. the second test will confirm or refute my spider sense. that's really the point i'm trying to get across.
finally, you infer that my argument is "all bikes are so good these days something must have been wrong with the review". that's not what i was trying to say. i'm saying that something must have been wrong with the bike. based on what people tell me about tim, the review was an honest representation of how the bike handled, but i would have handled that circumstance differently.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dirk
(Post 2540709)
As Cam explained in another thread someplace. "It's Hyperbole".
You are suggesting something along the lines of "all bikes are so good these days something must have been wrong with the review" and you are suggesting that it's the reviewers duty to try to troubleshoot potential problems on the bike provided to him. If you extend out your logic, this is where you would end up. I think there are problems with both of your statements. I am using exaggeration to highlight why I have problems with your statements. I did have a nice Mojito shortly before I wrote that statement. I don't think it had an impact on what I wrote. |
a bit of a disclaimer here: i've been testing product for various bike companies for upwards of 15 years. after all this time it's become a bit of skill. based on my experiences when i first read the article i thought something must be up. the second test will confirm or refute my spider sense. that's really the point i'm trying to get across.
finally, you infer that my argument is "all bikes are so good these days something must have been wrong with the review". that's not what i was trying to say. i'm saying that something must have been wrong with the bike. based on what people tell me about tim, the review was an honest representation of how the bike handled, but i would have handled that circumstance differently.
Posted by kperras at 11:18 AM on 06-24-2011
I met that Tim Coleman guy once. He's a shifty character. Doesn't even pronounce fast correctly.
I met that Tim Coleman guy once. He's a shifty character. Doesn't even pronounce fast correctly.
Posted by Dirk at 01:17 PM on 06-24-2011
Okay *Pepe*. I hear what you're saying. We'll call it a truce. Share a mojito some day.
Too much in biking is based on marketing and reputation. When I read what Weagle said on Ridemonkey...he wouldn't even consider that there was a problem with his bike. He pretty much just dismissed the complaint. I think that attitude is probably the main reason why the review ended up where it did.
I remember back in the day when I worked at a local parts company that happened to make some really shitty rear hubs that fell apart all the time...a magazine requested a rear wheel for review. The head engineer spent a good couple of hours hand assembling that hub. He pumped it full of so much loctite...it ended up getting a glowing review. This highlights the limitations of the whole magazine review process...but my point is that he recognized the importance of that review and took it seriously. He made damn sure that hub wasn't going to come apart.
Reputation should only get you so far. In this case, reputation caused Tim to fiddle with shock settings and even to try the shock on a different bike. After that, he wrote what he saw. And I don't think it's his job as a reviewer to dig any further to figure out exactly what went wrong.
Okay *Pepe*. I hear what you're saying. We'll call it a truce. Share a mojito some day.
Too much in biking is based on marketing and reputation. When I read what Weagle said on Ridemonkey...he wouldn't even consider that there was a problem with his bike. He pretty much just dismissed the complaint. I think that attitude is probably the main reason why the review ended up where it did.
I remember back in the day when I worked at a local parts company that happened to make some really shitty rear hubs that fell apart all the time...a magazine requested a rear wheel for review. The head engineer spent a good couple of hours hand assembling that hub. He pumped it full of so much loctite...it ended up getting a glowing review. This highlights the limitations of the whole magazine review process...but my point is that he recognized the importance of that review and took it seriously. He made damn sure that hub wasn't going to come apart.
Reputation should only get you so far. In this case, reputation caused Tim to fiddle with shock settings and even to try the shock on a different bike. After that, he wrote what he saw. And I don't think it's his job as a reviewer to dig any further to figure out exactly what went wrong.
Posted by boomforeal at 01:55 PM on 06-24-2011
syncros?
nowadays the mag would probably get a hub, have it fall apart, have it rebuilt, and mention the whole ordeal briefly in the 2nd to last paragraph of a glowing review that focussed on beautiful machining, angular contact bearings, abundance of colorways, gazillion of engagement points, etc. reliable reschmiable - gimme the specs! i reviewed a [bike] for [a magazine] a few years back - here's the last paragraph of the editor's reply (prudently edited):
needless to say, last review i did for [magazine]. when i told them i was no longer interested in being a contributor, the publisher mentioned:
imagine that?!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dirk
(Post 2540826)
I remember back in the day when I worked at a local parts company that happened to make some really shitty rear hubs that fell apart all the time...a magazine requested a rear wheel for review. The head engineer spent a good couple of hours hand assembling that hub. He pumped it full of so much loctite...it ended up getting a glowing review. This highlights the limitations of the whole magazine review process...but my point is that he recognized the importance of that review and took it seriously. He made damn sure that hub wasn't going to come apart.
|
nowadays the mag would probably get a hub, have it fall apart, have it rebuilt, and mention the whole ordeal briefly in the 2nd to last paragraph of a glowing review that focussed on beautiful machining, angular contact bearings, abundance of colorways, gazillion of engagement points, etc. reliable reschmiable - gimme the specs! i reviewed a [bike] for [a magazine] a few years back - here's the last paragraph of the editor's reply (prudently edited):
Quote:
|
[publisher] a little jumpy because she wants [company's] ads. I'm not so jumpy, because I think you said good things about them. But they will be watching for this one, and I think we owe them some honest feedback, and not quite so much "Here's [reviewer] riding around on [bike], tra la." What we want are facts, not entertainment. |
Quote:
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According to a database query [web guy] made for the web site, your mechanic articles are some of the most popular we have |
Posted by *Pepe* at 02:30 PM on 06-24-2011
i hear you too. we're on the same page.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dirk
(Post 2540826)
Okay *Pepe*. I hear what you're saying. We'll call it a truce. Share a mojito some day.
Too much in biking is based on marketing and reputation. When I read what Weagle said on Ridemonkey...he wouldn't even consider that there was a problem with his bike. He pretty much just dismissed the complaint. I think that attitude is probably the main reason why the review ended up where it did. I remember back in the day when I worked at a local parts company that happened to make some really shitty rear hubs that fell apart all the time...a magazine requested a rear wheel for review. The head engineer spent a good couple of hours hand assembling that hub. He pumped it full of so much loctite...it ended up getting a glowing review. This highlights the limitations of the whole magazine review process...but my point is that he recognized the importance of that review and took it seriously. He made damn sure that hub wasn't going to come apart. Reputation should only get you so far. In this case, reputation caused Tim to fiddle with shock settings and even to try the shock on a different bike. After that, he wrote what he saw. And I don't think it's his job as a reviewer to dig any further to figure out exactly what went wrong. |
Posted by Zackrie at 11:21 AM on 07-27-2011
I got my DHR about 3 weeks ago and have been racking up the saddle time pretty consistently since.
To put it shortly; i have not found any of the issues that where mentioned in the review apart from some careful body positioning whilst hard/tight cornering (though not a big issue after a run or two).
I got this to replace my Evil (Dead). And though it rides a little differently, I really am enjoying this thing!
Fast, Nimble, Stiff (torsional) and Plush are what comes to mind and seems to be shared with the few mates that have rode mine.
This is nothing against the review or reviewer. Just for the people out there, try to throw a leg over one before getting critical with you decision.
Cheers,
Z
I got my DHR about 3 weeks ago and have been racking up the saddle time pretty consistently since.
To put it shortly; i have not found any of the issues that where mentioned in the review apart from some careful body positioning whilst hard/tight cornering (though not a big issue after a run or two).
I got this to replace my Evil (Dead). And though it rides a little differently, I really am enjoying this thing!
Fast, Nimble, Stiff (torsional) and Plush are what comes to mind and seems to be shared with the few mates that have rode mine.
This is nothing against the review or reviewer. Just for the people out there, try to throw a leg over one before getting critical with you decision.
Cheers,
Z
Posted by shirk at 11:28 AM on 09-22-2011
http://blistergearreview.com/gear-re...011-turner-dhr
Any updates on when pt2 is coming?
http://blistergearreview.com/gear-re...011-turner-dhr
Any updates on when pt2 is coming?
Posted by cam@nsmb.com at 11:43 AM on 09-22-2011
We've been waiting to get the bike back. Fox looked at the bike and discovered that there was a problem which likely caused the bike to ride the way Tim described. I have asked the local rep when we might see the bike again.
We've been waiting to get the bike back. Fox looked at the bike and discovered that there was a problem which likely caused the bike to ride the way Tim described. I have asked the local rep when we might see the bike again.
Posted by Timmigrant at 12:27 PM on 09-22-2011
It'd be great to get it back before the Whistler bike park closes up. So many great trails for testing out a bike.
Cam do you care to elaborate on what the problem with the shock was?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by cam@nsmb.com
(Post 2569557)
We've been waiting to get the bike back. Fox looked at the bike and discovered that there was a problem which likely caused the bike to ride the way Tim described. I have asked the local rep when we might see the bike again.
|
Cam do you care to elaborate on what the problem with the shock was?
Posted by Buster Bluth at 01:22 PM on 09-22-2011
http://cdn.mos.bikeradar.com/images/...13k-800-75.jpg
Holy shiznit. Me likey this 5 spot.
http://cdn.mos.bikeradar.com/images/...13k-800-75.jpg
Holy shiznit. Me likey this 5 spot.
Posted by boomforeal at 02:30 PM on 09-22-2011
http://lp1.pinkbike.org/p4pb5657370/p4pb5657370.jpg
if tim bumps up the dhr's final grade, does that improve nsmb's chances of getting one of these to try out?
http://lp1.pinkbike.org/p4pb5657370/p4pb5657370.jpg
if tim bumps up the dhr's final grade, does that improve nsmb's chances of getting one of these to try out?
Posted by sAFETY at 03:22 PM on 09-22-2011
That's assuming that the RFX really exists......
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by boomforeal
(Post 2569614)
http://lp1.pinkbike.org/p4pb5657370/p4pb5657370.jpg
if tim bumps up the dhr's final grade, does that improve nsmb's chances of getting one of these to try out? |
Posted by craw at 03:25 PM on 09-22-2011
The longer they wait to release that bike the more unbelievably amazing it will have to be to actually impress anyone. I don't know if DT still wields that kind of magic.
The longer they wait to release that bike the more unbelievably amazing it will have to be to actually impress anyone. I don't know if DT still wields that kind of magic.
Posted by clownmitts at 03:29 PM on 09-22-2011
So what's the deal with this second review? Is Turner going to be a bitch and gather up all his toys before running out of the room?
So what's the deal with this second review? Is Turner going to be a bitch and gather up all his toys before running out of the room?
Posted by cam@nsmb.com at 04:46 PM on 09-24-2011
See above.
See above.
Posted by boomforeal at 05:21 PM on 09-24-2011
you did notice i posted up a picture of one, right?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by sAFETY
(Post 2569634)
That's assuming that the RFX really exists......
|
Posted by sAFETY at 08:38 PM on 09-24-2011
pffff, that's clearly photoshop.
The RFX is simply an idea that cannot be attained, a concept that cannot manifest physically, a bike that can never be ridden.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by boomforeal
(Post 2570349)
you did notice i posted up a picture of one, right?
|
The RFX is simply an idea that cannot be attained, a concept that cannot manifest physically, a bike that can never be ridden.
Posted by nouseforaname at 08:16 AM on 09-25-2011
Chuck Norris rides a DW RFX.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by sAFETY
(Post 2570398)
pffff, that's clearly photoshop.
The RFX is simply an idea that cannot be attained, a concept that cannot manifest physically, a bike that can never be ridden. |
Posted by wheeldrop at 11:42 AM on 09-25-2011
In the review he says the 888 ,in the picture it shows Fox front suspension. I know he is a Marazocchi guy .Is this why he is selling a Session ,and Nomad on PB?
In the review he says the 888 ,in the picture it shows Fox front suspension. I know he is a Marazocchi guy .Is this why he is selling a Session ,and Nomad on PB?
Posted by Timmigrant at 10:41 AM on 09-26-2011
Wheels I stated clearly in the review that the bike came with a Fox 40, but it was in need of a service. I only had the bike for a few weeks so I threw my 888 on the bike to ride for the majority of the review. For the photo shoot I made sure the bike was as it was given to me.
As for the sale of the bikes. I've switched my quiver of bikes around this year. I rode some of the new Norcos this year and was impressed with how they rode. I decided to buy a Range 1 to replace the Nomad, and luckily I was able to keep the Aurum prototype I was testing, which replaced my Session. Both bikes are still rocking Marzocchi forks however! :rocker:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by wheeldrop
(Post 2570522)
In the review he says the 888 ,in the picture it shows Fox front suspension. I know he is a Marazocchi guy .Is this why he is selling a Session ,and Nomad on PB?
|
As for the sale of the bikes. I've switched my quiver of bikes around this year. I rode some of the new Norcos this year and was impressed with how they rode. I decided to buy a Range 1 to replace the Nomad, and luckily I was able to keep the Aurum prototype I was testing, which replaced my Session. Both bikes are still rocking Marzocchi forks however! :rocker:
Posted by PUNKY at 10:20 PM on 09-26-2011
RFX ProtoHYPE!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by boomforeal
(Post 2569614)
http://lp1.pinkbike.org/p4pb5657370/p4pb5657370.jpg
if tim bumps up the dhr's final grade, does that improve nsmb's chances of getting one of these to try out? |
Posted by Sethimus at 05:46 AM on 09-27-2011
watch the vid the mtbr guys did with turner on interbike (last 5 minutes or so)...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by boomforeal
(Post 2569614)
http://lp1.pinkbike.org/p4pb5657370/p4pb5657370.jpg
if tim bumps up the dhr's final grade, does that improve nsmb's chances of getting one of these to try out? |
Posted by Couch_Surfer at 09:18 AM on 09-27-2011
yeah. wow.
http://interbike.mtbr.com/turner-201...-update-on-rfx
about minute 12.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Sethimus
(Post 2571065)
watch the vid the mtbr guys did with turner on interbike (last 5 minutes or so)...
|
http://interbike.mtbr.com/turner-201...-update-on-rfx
about minute 12.
Posted by GladePlayboy at 09:53 AM on 09-27-2011
Dave Turner sounds lost...
Dave Turner sounds lost...
Posted by FullMonty at 04:20 PM on 09-27-2011
maybe hungover?
maybe hungover?
Posted by craw at 07:49 PM on 09-27-2011
Struggling for relevance. It feels like these boutique guys are really struggling.
Struggling for relevance. It feels like these boutique guys are really struggling.
Posted by J.Stubb at 11:11 AM on 09-28-2011
Im not bike designer but I found it funny that Turner would have no idea what the production costs would be until after a year of riding it. Couldnt they project the costs based on the initial design drawings? That would've saved them a lot of time and money not designing a bike that was unaffordable.
Im not bike designer but I found it funny that Turner would have no idea what the production costs would be until after a year of riding it. Couldnt they project the costs based on the initial design drawings? That would've saved them a lot of time and money not designing a bike that was unaffordable.
Posted by Guest at 01:46 PM on 12-31-2011
I have had my DHR for a little over a year now. I had the old one before this. I would definitely agree about the harsher ride, but I changed the rear shock to a ROCO and 888s up front. A bit of foam tape and a Velcro protector on the chainstay and all good. It is now very supple and eats up the bumps. I also found I went from a 550lbs spring on my old DHR to a 450lbs. Much lower than I expected. Good review most reviews ate gutless product promoting dribble. I love my DHR all the same and think it is the best dh bike I have ridden.
I have had my DHR for a little over a year now. I had the old one before this. I would definitely agree about the harsher ride, but I changed the rear shock to a ROCO and 888s up front. A bit of foam tape and a Velcro protector on the chainstay and all good. It is now very supple and eats up the bumps. I also found I went from a 550lbs spring on my old DHR to a 450lbs. Much lower than I expected. Good review most reviews ate gutless product promoting dribble. I love my DHR all the same and think it is the best dh bike I have ridden.
Posted by partypooper at 10:25 PM on 01-17-2012
There is a trend away from the bulldozer bike. Plush bikes sell well - fast bikes feel much harsher. Turner knows this.
But DHR caves in to marketing innovation with an overcomplicated rear linkage.
These things look great and function well on the CAD level. Stiction, friction and wear will make a multilink bike a nightmare to setup and keep without freeplay.
So Turner and his R-Guys "threw" all their expertise in and overengineered the product to a point where it just wont work anymore as intended. It`s sadly less than the sum of its parts. My engineering guess - simplify!
As for the reviewer: There is no methodical approach visible. Anectodal knowhow meets a product with capabilities way beyond his expertise. This review exposes the fundamental mismatch between those who know everything about nothing and write about it and those who think and try to make the best possible single purpose tool and sometimes fail or overshoot. In this case - hats off to Mr. Turner - you are following in the footsteps of other great engineering minds.
Maybe the reviewer should just limit himself to reviewing XC-Bikes and marveling at the blingifyed, lightieness, stiffificativness, gripiness of the rebeautifed new Taiwan-Crop.
There is a trend away from the bulldozer bike. Plush bikes sell well - fast bikes feel much harsher. Turner knows this.
But DHR caves in to marketing innovation with an overcomplicated rear linkage.
These things look great and function well on the CAD level. Stiction, friction and wear will make a multilink bike a nightmare to setup and keep without freeplay.
So Turner and his R-Guys "threw" all their expertise in and overengineered the product to a point where it just wont work anymore as intended. It`s sadly less than the sum of its parts. My engineering guess - simplify!
As for the reviewer: There is no methodical approach visible. Anectodal knowhow meets a product with capabilities way beyond his expertise. This review exposes the fundamental mismatch between those who know everything about nothing and write about it and those who think and try to make the best possible single purpose tool and sometimes fail or overshoot. In this case - hats off to Mr. Turner - you are following in the footsteps of other great engineering minds.
Maybe the reviewer should just limit himself to reviewing XC-Bikes and marveling at the blingifyed, lightieness, stiffificativness, gripiness of the rebeautifed new Taiwan-Crop.
Posted by Guest at 12:36 PM on 02-04-2012
I am very suprised at the reviewers findings as my DHR is a dream to ride. I have owned and extensively ridden V10s , Demo 8, 224 and the old and new style of glory. I would be interested to read the new review with a functioning shock as the DHR is a true weapon of a bike.
On another note, if the reviewer enjoys a softer setup, then a 400lb spring is too heavy for his 190lb geared up weight. I would suggest a 350lb with slightly more compression or a 375 if available. I weigh 209lbs fully geared up and run a 400lbs with slightly firmer compression.
FYI my settings are
209lbs or 95kg rider with kit
400lb spring FOX DHX RC4
Boost Valve (bottom out) fully open
Bv pressure 140psi
HSC 8 clicks out from full on
LSC 12 clicks out from full on
Rebound 6 out from full on
Thanks NSMB for putting out comprehensive reviews as most magazine reviews I read these days are pretty crappy to say the least.
Looking forward to the results of the second review.
Cheers
Dave
I am very suprised at the reviewers findings as my DHR is a dream to ride. I have owned and extensively ridden V10s , Demo 8, 224 and the old and new style of glory. I would be interested to read the new review with a functioning shock as the DHR is a true weapon of a bike.
On another note, if the reviewer enjoys a softer setup, then a 400lb spring is too heavy for his 190lb geared up weight. I would suggest a 350lb with slightly more compression or a 375 if available. I weigh 209lbs fully geared up and run a 400lbs with slightly firmer compression.
FYI my settings are
209lbs or 95kg rider with kit
400lb spring FOX DHX RC4
Boost Valve (bottom out) fully open
Bv pressure 140psi
HSC 8 clicks out from full on
LSC 12 clicks out from full on
Rebound 6 out from full on
Thanks NSMB for putting out comprehensive reviews as most magazine reviews I read these days are pretty crappy to say the least.
Looking forward to the results of the second review.
Cheers
Dave
Posted by clarklewis at 08:58 PM on 02-04-2012
Yeah Tim, stick to riding xc bikes. Uh, wait...
Yeah Tim, stick to riding xc bikes. Uh, wait...
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