EDITORIAL
Whose Line Is It Anyway?
“Look, I’m not trying to be an asshole,” I said in a surprisingly calm tone.
“Well, you are!”
‘OK,’ I think to myself. ‘This is an argument that no one is going to win. Count to 10. Take a couple of deep breaths and walk on by.’
A few weeks ago I took advantage of a rare winter day steeped in sunshine. My partner and I looked across the valley at the opposing mountain, saw that it was finally snow-free, and decided to embark on one of my favorite local trails that has a pristine singletrack climb. Most of the big climbing around here takes place on fairly steep fire roads that require lots of calories, time, and patience while you stare at the same stretch of monotonous scenery in front of you for miles on end.
***
Once upon a time, I hated climbing to such a degree that I would start and end every ride with the sentiment, "Climbing blows." There wasn't a single trail I ever felt was worth slogging up an ultra-long, steep climb. My lungs would always feel like they'd been raked against a cheese grater. My legs felt like lead trees, and worst of all, I would lose my mind. My tolerance for the pain cave was non-existent. I was all about shuttles, bike parks, and chairlifts. I owned a DH bike and a commuter. That was it.
Moving to Bellingham gave me a proper slap in the face. If I wanted to ride the good stuff here, I had to earn it. Shuttles are few and far between, and the builders here have a real zest for finding the biggest mountains for the best trails. (Kudos to them for that!) Unless I wanted to ride the same lowland trails all the time, I needed to get my ass in shape. I hired a coach known for his climbing prowess and got to work. For the first time in my life, I was riding a bike trainer (barf), doing intervals (double barf), and recording all the bits of data I could muster. I was a living science and social experiment. It was kinda neat!
After many months of dedicating obnoxious hours to improving my uphill fitness, I finally ticked off my first 10,000-foot day. It was hard, and I cried, but I got to eat a lot of candy which helped dull the pain. Hitting that goal was a big deal for me, but what was even better was the net result from all the work: I became a pretty decent climber. I'd unlocked a whole new set of trails that had been entirely off-limits due to their associated climbs. It totally changed how I view mountain biking. I used to only seek out the best descents, but now I find myself hunting for those elusive singletrack climbs that make me feel like I'm wandering through fairytales. They inevitably lead to big, leg-burning descents, that beg for bigger rotors.
Like most of you, I have my favorite trails, which is how I found myself arguing with this particular person about whether or not I was indeed being an asshole. After a painstakingly shortish but grueling fireroad climb we made our way to the actual start the singletrack climb that leads to one of my favorite trails. I found myself in my happy place, ticking away the vert while admiring huge old-growth cedars, sunlight peeking through the canopy, and enjoying the fresh smell of organic matter. But my joy was short-lived as I found myself unable to negotiate a normally fairly easy switchback.
'What the heck?' I thought. 'Why is this so rutted and what are these new exposed roots?'
I rounded the next two corners, also full of freshly churned dirt, torn roots, and a newly-acquired rut. The rut continued up the main line of the trail and more torn, exposed roots threatened my derailleur and spokes. The entire character of the climb had changed. What only a few weeks prior had been dreamy and challenging but negotiable climbing, had given way to a demonic and frustrating climbing experience.
And then I heard them. Dirtbikes.
The smell of organic matter gave way to the smell of motor oil. The sound of the breeze and birds gave way to the sound of brappppp, and the regular beat of my heart gave way to rage.
Before I go any further, I want to iterate the fact that I am not anti-dirtbike. A vast majority of my close friends ride moto. I'm ambivalent about their existence unless they are the six men who clumsily rode and crashed their way down this climbing trail and stopped when they saw me staring incredulously at them. Sigh.
This is where things got tricky. The trail we were all on wasn't legal. It's on DNR land and to my knowledge was quietly built by trail runners a few years ago with the intent to access big forest service roads at the top of the mountain. The top of this mountain is regularly used by dirt bikers, but this trail is not. It is frequented by mountain bikers and trail runners, and we've cohabitated in this area for a long time. Regardless, I acknowledge that the trail isn't legal for anyone—myself included.
To me, they'd degraded a rare slice of climbing heaven. To them, I was trail Karen telling them to get off a lawn that wasn't even mine.
I stood there and asked if they'd come up the trail too, to which the lead guy responded that they had. The other five guys wouldn't look me in the eye. I can't recall the conversation verbatim but we exchanged a long list of surprisingly measured, but intense points about who was in the right and who was in the wrong. They weren't telling me not to be there, but the lead guy also made no apologies for bringing his crew to a place that is not known to be a dirt biking spot. The discussion went in circles. We argued about trail access for mountain bikes and dirtbikes. I think I surprised him when he asked me where he was supposed to ride in an area that doesn't have many (any?) legal dirtbike trails. I ticked off five zones that I know are regular riding areas. He told me "Well you should just go back to Galbraith."
"Look, I'm not trying to be an asshole," I said.
"Well, you are!"
Ok.
To me, they'd degraded a rare slice of climbing heaven. To them, I was trail Karen telling them to get off a lawn that wasn't even mine. We were both in the wrong being there in the first place, but one group isn't going to leave lasting damage on the trial the way the other will. Regardless, this was a winless argument, and my frustration was going nowhere fast.
Not the day I met my moto pals. Photo: Patrik Zuest
Instead of losing my temper, I walked away. I fumbled my bike past all six men and the only other one who looked me in the eye was the guy in the back, who quietly said, "I'm sorry." I gave him a defeated smile and said, "Thank you for that," and continued the rutted climb to the top of the hill. There was no positive outcome to be had. To them, I'm probably just a topic of consternation while they drink their after-ride beers, and I have to resign myself to the fact that none of us were supposed to be there. I kept repeating the argument in my brain, 'But we're not ruining the trail.' Alas, it didn't matter what I thought.
When I got home I surveyed a few of my regular dirtbike friends about riding in that zone and they all said with a resounding, "No way," would they ever ride on that particular trail and didn't know anyone who would, but they did remind me that there are moto trails in that area. Maybe they accidentally stumbled upon that trail? But Mr. Guyinthefront told me he'd ridden it before, so this was no accident.
It got me thinking about the never-ending battle for trail rights, and advocacy, and how it really is somewhat challenging for all user groups to get along. There are probably plenty of you who will tell me that I could just go build my own trail. Well, yes, I could (and I have), but that doesn't change this situation. We were all playing in the same government sandbox in this instance, and I'm still unsure if any of us were in the right, or if we both need to go to time out.
Perhaps I just need to learn a new climbing technique: how to master rutted trails because according to Mr. Guyinthefront, I could already teach the master class of How to Be An Asshole.
Comments
Karl Fitzpatrick
1 month, 2 weeks ago
Entitlement and perspective.
I'm not surprised to hear the writer of an article on a website such as NSMB was reflective about the fact that they shouldn't have been there either.
I am also absolutely not surprised to hear that someone who knew full well the damage they were doing to the trails put themselves on a (metaphorical) hill they couldn't climb down from without feeling emasculated in front their friends.
My local (legal) mtb trails occasionally see the same behaviour you described here from an hilariously similar recreational group with laughably similar arguments about their lack of options.
There's really no winning whether you're in the right or not. People who have decided they can justify their behaviour with crappy, often weak arguments will never change.
What a great article, Lacy.
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Mike Ferrentino
1 month, 1 week ago
To echo sentiments upthread, the throttle is a thing, but the dipshit twisting it is another thing entirely. I grew up on dirt bikes, got into mountain biking because it seemed like a way to access trails that were becoming increasingly walled off to dirt bikes (and with good reason), and I am by no means a saint when it comes to questionable behaviors where wheels are involved, with or without motors.
For my part, there are never really "rights", but there certainly are privileges. And there are entitlements; implied, perceived, or vehemently expressed. The big problem with dirt bikes is that they can be ridden with skill and consideration and leave barely any more of a mark than a mountain bike, but the number of riders who lack skill and consideration is usually a fair bit higher than the number of riders who exhibit those traits. If it's just one or two asshats, their damage can generally be constrained within the bigger picture. As those numbers increase, though, shit can get ugly real fast.
But then again, the same exact thing can be said about mountain bikers, access, trail damage, and sense of entitlement. It just takes a much larger number of users.
Case study: In Downieville, almost all the trails are moto legal. And mountain bike legal, hiker legal, horse legal, gold prospector legal, mule train legal, etc... When I was living up there 20 years ago, the "Downieville downhill" - a roughly 16 mile, 5000'ish descent - saw something like 54,000 users a summer. Almost all of those users were mountain bikers, and they definitely left their mark. The dirt bikers up there were generally few in number and high in skill, mostly because the trails are sketchy as fuck and cases of whiskey throttle usually result in getting head butted by red firs or long, arduous extractions of lost bikes from very inaccessible creek beds.
But there was also a group of dirt bikers who would congregate every year and camp up by Packer Lake. They were called the Outdoor Sportsmans Group or something like that, and they weren't really dirt bikers, not the same way that the "serious" dirt bikers local to the region were. The OSG were not, generally speaking, very skilled riders. Those 30 or so riders would every year take it upon themselves to ride UP the Downieville downhill from town at some point. Usually on a weekend, when the shuttle vans were disgorging hundreds of mountain bikers for the ride down. Fully legal, and these people were absolutely within their "rights" to do what they did, but man, what a shit show. They would get angry at the constant stream of downhill mountain bike traffic, and at the same time would completely destroy switchback after switchback as their lack of skill met their excessive throttle hands while also trying to muscle their way up a continuous moving wheeled downhill flowing obstacle course. The mountain bikers would come into the shop at the end of their rides seething with rage, and describing heated encounters with sweaty obese rednecks on clapped out old XR600s. The OSG would usually stop in on their way out of town to complain about what assholes the mountain bikers were and how they wouldn't get out of the way on the narrow trails they were trying to ride up.
The local dirt bikers took pains to distance themselves from the OSG, and were actively involved in the maintenance of the trails up there, even though they left nowhere near as much of a mark on the landscape as the tens of thousands of mountain bikers (the rest of the year, at least). Nevertheless, the annual visit of the OSG would leave enough of an impression on the other trail users they encountered that the echoes would last for years as mountain bikers from the Bay Area would vocally and emphatically express how great it would be if dirt bikes were banned up there. Which, to my ears, was painful to hear, since I lived there, was riding both mountain bikes and dirt bikes on the trails up there, and felt like it was paradise.
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Adrian Bostock
1 month, 1 week ago
“For my part, there are never really "rights", but there certainly are privileges. And there are entitlements; implied, perceived, or vehemently expressed.”
well said! as always.
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Lowcard
1 month, 1 week ago
In Kamloops, the local dirtbike advocacy group regularly organizes garbage cleanup days, trail clearing/build days, and they also volunteer to operate and maintain a couple of provincial campsites in the area. They work closely with governing bodies and landowners for land access, but also spend a lot of time educating the "asshats" on proper etiquette. Now mountain bike trail builders are encroaching on the dirtbike trails (that they manage) and bringing unwanted notoriety to the area.
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kamloops_rider
1 month, 1 week ago
Kamloops is the 3rd fastest growing city in the country and since covid, there's been a dramatic increase of trail users. Add in the fact that in the western world we have a 'me first attitude' and things can get spicy out there. On the plus side, the increased users has also increased the amount of legal trails to ride compared to a few years ago which is a good thing and there is the health benefits which can help the overall population. But there's alot user's lacking common sense and/or consideration for people other than themselves.
At the end of last riding season I saw 2 younger kids exiting the main legal trail network here on what looked to be Surron's or something where they were able to keep up with traffic without pedaling. That's what gets me worried.
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Lowcard
1 month, 1 week ago
I don't live there anymore, but holy cow, when I go back, I don't recognize anyone. There are so many new bike riders there.
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Lu Kz
1 month, 1 week ago
Fast growing but at least there's plenty of land that won't be built on. If you don't care about whether trails are sanctioned, there's no shortage. I can't think of many incidents with dirt bikers, I guess it's lucky there are so many legit ORV parks in the area.
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kamloops_rider
1 month, 1 week ago
It's a tough one as most of the land close by to Kamloops is privately owned - it looks like lots of land to build trails on but it's at your own risk. I've been told by one of the land owners to stay the f out of his property years ago and I have but I know it still see's regular use. I truly believe our trail systems are fragile in that they could be taken away very easily.
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Jerry Willows
1 month, 1 week ago
anyone riding trails on a regular basis, whether it's dirtbikes, ebikes, bikes, need to do maintenance on trails. Anyone not helping out is doing a disservice to their community and to their choice of activity.
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kamloops_rider
1 month, 1 week ago
Does donating money to the club's that manage the trails count?
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UMichael
1 month, 1 week ago
Yes. In a way, you are donating your time. If I volunteer I am donating my hours directly. If you donate money you are donating the hours you were compensated for by your employer. Either way you give hours to the trails
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Pete Roggeman
1 month, 1 week ago
Absolutely. Not everyone has the time, knowledge, or wherewithal to do trail maintenance, and that's where making sure you're a member and donating money, tools, or helping in other ways certainly also makes a difference.
But at the very least, kick out drains, pile a few rocks, move big branches or small trees that fall across the trail...it all adds up and someone has to do it.
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Andy Eunson
1 month, 1 week ago
It certainly does count. I have a friend who rides a lot but shoulder injuries and arthritic fingers prevent her from doing any sort of heavy work. Similar for me with a bad knee so I rarely attend dig nights. But I do go out on my own to rake trails and cut out the annoying small deadfall’s and slide alder. Fuck I hate slide alder.
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Mammal
1 month, 1 week ago
Of course. If you ride both sanctioned and unsanctioned trails, you should ideally compensate for the latter in other ways.
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AndrewR
1 month, 1 week ago
My personal rule of mountain biking:
If I ride there (at all - even once) I buy a trail membership, it adds money to the pot for that group and shows that you care about their efforts.
At the end of the year I look at kilometres ridden and donate another $0.20 per kilometre for my local group (as I ride those trails the most) even though I think my group needs a kick up the arse from a trail building perspective (ie enthusiastic but still can't get a lot of the basics right); and $0.10 per kilometre for groups that I visited.
I also volunteer my skills (event medic) at events in both my local group's area and some times those that I visit as a way of giving back.
Other than almost always carrying (and being willing to use) a Silky saw and a small drainage ditch trowel (in autumn and spring) I otherwise do not do build days as I cannot handle the pfaff and chat that goes with large groups that appear to help make the simple complicated.
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Hawkinsdad
1 month, 1 week ago
Hi Mike, Lacy, et al. Thanks for inciting an important conversation. I'm a mountain biker and hopefully soon I will be a dirt biker again for the first time in decades. I'm a trail builder and I volunteer with our local trail society. We work hard to liaise with the local First Nation, regional district, city, and the provincial agency. We also do our best to co-exist on protected "multi-use trails" with mountain bikers, trail runners, and horse riders. Dirt bikers have some double-track roads they can ride but they are not permitted on the sanctioned trails. However, that doesn't mean an absence of conflict. One guy I've tried to reason with threatened my buddy with his rifle one day. He rides his Yamaha up and through protected trails to the top of the mountain with spite, cutting deep ruts, and with the knowledge that the trails are protected. I ran into another guy who called me a fucktard because I had the audacity to remind him that motorized vehicles are not permitted on sanctioned trails. I had yet another experience coming down a steep section on my bike when I came across two young guys on motocross bikes were attempting to ride up. The damage they created lasted into the next season. My concern is that this sense of entitlement is pervasive in society. There are too many people who view trail advocacy groups like ours as an impediment to their ability to do whatever the hell they want. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I encourage people to do the right thing and to challenge behaviours which impact the environment and which risk injury to people who indeed have the right to use the trails.
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Lowcard
1 month, 1 week ago
Everyone is fighting for scraps. Dirtbike riders are to mountain bike riders like mountain bike riders are to hikers. I've been on both sides of this argument and I can tell you, we all want the same thing. Except horse riders - they are above everyone else it seems.
Mountain bikers are no better than dirtbike riders. We are just as guilty as anyone for riding where we shouldn't be (umm... Darkside?), so let's not pretend we are above them. As a former dirtbike rider, I can tell you that their fight for land is a lot more of a struggle than ours because everybody hates dirtbike riders. Even in more remote areas like in the interior, official dirtbike riding zones are getting pushed further into the backcountry.
Funny story, on a recent trip to one of my favourite places in the Cariboo, I was stopped on (what I thought was a public road) by a representative of the local First Nations band. He asked what I was doing and that I needed permission to be there. I was driving, but I have also ridden my gravel bike there many times. After a friendly chat, he saw that I was not threatening and gave me one of his band's hats as "a pass". That was nice. He went on to tell me that gravel bike riders are illegally riding there and that the band has taken steps to shut it down. They've even installed locked gates on this road. Apparently this area has blown up so much that it's now a victim of its own popularity. Even bike brands are using it in their advertising. Every single outsider to this area needs special permission to be there. And while most probably don't know this, there are some gravel cyclists who do know, yet are still riding there anyway.
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Fat_Tony_NJ
1 month, 1 week ago
My old local riding spot in NJ, USA was a small system of legal trails, largely built and maintained by the local and state MTB groups. As the system became more popular and used, I remember having two conflicts in one day: a hiker yelling at me to get off the trail; insisting that bikes we not allowed, and me yelling at some kids on dirt bikes, wrecking the small BMX pit area. Thinking about that day, the hiker likely thought I was a wiseass kid. The dirt bikers likely thought I was a grumpy old man. No real answers, but we all see things from our own perspectives.
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Andy Eunson
1 month, 1 week ago
It’s like an old acquaintance once said about being a roommate, "leave as little evidence of your own passing as possible". and that advice applies to life in general. There will always be conflicts even amongst the same user group. Sometimes one is selfish sometimes they don’t realize that a face time call in a public place with a loud voice is annoying. We live in a crowded world. People will get upset because someone else’s fun has a negative impact on their fun. And that’s not right.
I think when an area becomes too crowded we need rules and we need to separate distinct user groups to force us to get along.
The ebike thing I think needs to be addressed now too. If e-bikes cause a substantial increase in impact to trails and interactions simply because of growth we need to assess parking, trail maintenance and interactions with other users now before potential impacts include bikes.
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Kenny
1 month, 1 week ago
Sort-of reads like a poacher telling a story about running into another another group of poachers with bigger guns.
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cxfahrer
1 month, 2 weeks ago
Many many trails were ruined by the dirtbike folks. Lake Garda, Finale. Here in Germany it is better because in most places everything with an engine is banned very restrictively.
But - what do hikers think of mountainbiking, on footpaths that were built hundred years ago exclusively for them? And what do landowners think of hikers making illegal footpaths on their land?
Common sense, respect, and so many people wanting to go out and have fun.
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Kenneth Perras
1 month, 1 week ago
I've found that as physical ability requirements get lower, it seems the user group gets worse with respect to their actions in nature. This is a generalization of course and there are amazing trail users in all groups as well as sour grapes across the spectrum. However it does seem like the balance tips towards fewer of those nice, respectful, considerate participants as you lower the amount of work required to get out in nature.
In the end, it's up to each user group to police themselves and take a hard stance against bad actors within their sport.
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Mike Ferrentino
1 month, 1 week ago
The barrier to entry paradox. Make access easier - whether by proximity to population, addition of motors, dumbing down of trails, and the user group immediately grows, AND the relative level of understanding regarding trail use/ettiquette/social behaviors plummets.
The great thing about Downieville is/was that much of the riding is legitimately backcountry and technical enough that it demands some degree of skill and self-awareness to survive once away from the main arterial routes. So conflicts are generally very low. But the closer one gets to graded roads and easily accessible parking lots, the more things degenerate; more conflicts, more injuries, much higher kook factor, sudden influx of quads and side by sides.
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NealWood
1 month, 1 week ago
This is why I avoid flow trails and stick to janky tech trails. ;)
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UMichael
1 month, 1 week ago
I find it hard to place blame on user groups when, for the most part, leaders of these groups want to do the right thing by maintaining their trails or minimizing their impact so they can continue to enjoy said trails.
I much rather place blame on those who manage the trails.
This opinion comes from my (albeit somewhat limited) experiences as a trail maintainer. The hill I learned to mountain bike on is Burnaby Mountain. I grew up in the neighbourhood in its shadow, and spent a lot of time pushing my clapped-out DH up that hill. Recently, the City of Burnaby put up some nice fences blocking as many of the illegal trails as they could find, and planted trees on the trails to further discourage poaching. This bummed me out, because the best turns on the hill are on one of these illegal trails. The legal trails are old, constantly being washed out, and need top-to-bottom rebuilds (as evidenced by the amount of rockwork I have put in on trail days).
And the thing is, the mountain bikers in the area would love to do the required labour for free. But the city refuses to allow this, requiring that all maintenance is done under paid supervision (so obviously they don't want to spend money on this).
This clearly pushes mountain bikers to make their own changes, build their own trails, and end up clashing with the city.
Best part is, the hikers also prefer this because then they don't have to watch for bikers flying around the blind corners that need the bushes trimmed...
Then, extending this towards Eagle Mountain, my current romping grounds, the moto association is trying their best to get a moto-specific loop put in place. The more effort they've been putting into this, the less poaching we have seen of the mtb trails. This effort has required a lot of interfacing with the City of Coquitlam, but it has been immensely appreciated by both moto and mtb users.
If you give people the opportunities to build and maintain what they want, my experience says that there will be fewer conflicts and better trails for all users.
Perhaps the inverse to "If you build it, they will come" is if you don't build it, someone else will, but if you don't let them build it they won't leave...
Anyways, always nice to read what yall write, thanks!
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XXX_er
1 month, 1 week ago
there used to be a lot of dirt biking up on bby mtn
there was even a sanctioned motocross race up behind SFU
these bike were all 2 strokes and before mufflers
now days the noise bothers me
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Kever
1 month, 1 week ago
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Kever
1 month, 1 week ago
(This is an image from Gran Torino and is a joke in the form of a reference to popular culture in case that needed to be clarified)
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Cr4w
1 month, 2 weeks ago
Ask any trials moto guy about the effect mountain bikers have on the trail.
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justwan naride
1 month, 2 weeks ago
Here Greece all motor vehicles are officially banned from trails. However this is not enforced at all, so anyone with a moto is more or less free to go anywhere they please. The mountain with the easiest access from the city gets extremely busy during the weekends from all kinds of users. Families doing casual walks, hikers, trail runners, mountain bikers... and dirt bikers.
Now, it's a fact that quite a few of the current mtb trails in the area were opened by dirtbikes many years ago. So in this context, regardless of the legal status, we owe them. On the other hand, it's not rare at all to see severe trail damage caused by dirt bikes, esp. after rain. In some areas where the soil is clay-based the ruts become hard as concrete and thus permanent when they dry.
Then there's the matter of safety. Many trails are frequented by all users, dirtbikes included. Luckily for the rest, their engines are loud, so there's time to get off the trail to avoid collision, but there have been a few near misses. Many of the riders are older, experienced and avoid peak days/hours in order to avoid conflict. Others however are not so sensitive and think it's fun to ride fast close to other people, children and dogs.
It's the user, not the vehicle. It's just that motos can be very loud, destructive to the trails and potentially dangerous to other users under a certain kind of rider. At times our group has stopped dirt bikers trying to explain the situation from our point of view. A couple from our group are ex-moto guys too. Some times people are willing to listen, sometimes not.
There are @$$h*le mtb'ers out there too, ask any hiker. Although our toys have less potential for damage, there's still potential for things to go wrong. I encourage everyone to use common sense and prioritise safety when out there. Let's think of ourselves as ambassadors of the riding community and do our best to be friendly and respectful to others.
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Lacy Kemp
1 month, 1 week ago
I think you nailed it here. Common sense is key. I also acknowledge that dirtbikers have put in a lot of work opening trails in various areas- including Bellingham, that are no longer even available to them, and that has to be frustrating. Every time we ride our mountain bikes we carry the reputation of our biking community in our attitude and I thought hard about this during my interaction with this crew as I do when I encounter a terrified hiker that had no clue they might encounter bikes somewhere. It's a push-pull for sure, but attitude says everything.
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danithemechanic
1 month, 2 weeks ago
Once i was out trailbuilding with a big crew, and as i was crossing a little dirt road by myself, a group of dirt bikers emerged FROM THE CREEK beneath the road!
Being completely motor-illiterate, i exchanged some words with the group leader (a local guide apparently) to warn him about my trailbuilding crew. He assured me they'd never ride up or down the biking trail, as he has many other options around the hill. Bear in mind i'm pretty sure motors are banned in most of our local hill, if not all of it.
Meanwhile the other riders, all foreing, were slowly coming up the wet and rocky merciless creek, all ending to push-pull the huge motorbikes up the last riverbank. I sat on the road's edge watching this creatures do their thing as you would with a herd of boars. Everyone was skiddin, pushing, yelling, dying to get up what looked to me impossible, but in reality they all lacked both the skills and knowledge, and were too tired at that point to get a good line that was on their right before the creek ended.
I wish i saw the leader come up from that line, and maybe the only other one that did, because they made no sound as i was approaching the river, compared to the mess everyone else was making. It was clear to me that it's not really motorbikes that ruin the trails, rather who rides them. Probably there have been other motorized vehicles up your local trail before but their rider's skills left no trace.
The problem, i think, it's that any kid with a random motorbike can get into whatever unknown trail they find and if in trouble, they'd just accelerate their way out of it, leaving a mess behind. It could even be that, that guy that told you "I'm sorry" was the only one lacking the skills to go up properly (maybe he was just the only one to admit it).
Unfortunately i don't see any other solution than banning an extremely potential danger such as motorbikes from all hiking-biking-riding trails, regardless of their users. But in the end it's just really common sense ruling it, wich most people lack of more than riding skills apparently.
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tashi
1 month, 1 week ago
It's incredible how similar this story is to ones that hikers liked to tell about us BITD.
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SteveR
1 month, 1 week ago
Excellent, Lacy, and it's great to see such a welcome addition to the NSMB stable! Where I live in Alberta, the moto and bicycle crowds have generally kept to their own zones (usually by regulation), and conflicts have been few. However, Surrons have been appearing in increasing numbers on the non-motorized trails close to my home. I had a similar encounter with just such a rider last fall, who knew damn well that he shouldn't have been there with his Surron, but excused it by saying - "I'm just having fun!" FWIW I have had the same reaction when chiding MTB riders about shredding new lines on sensitive hillsides.
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justwan naride
1 month, 1 week ago
Don't get me started on Surrons. There's one infamous person who's in the habit of passing a few cm from riders/hikers at high speed. A close mate very narrowly avoided colliding with him on a trail with blind corners last year too. Tried to talk to him.The guy is an @$$ and is not willing to understand how much trouble he's causing.
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BarryW
1 month, 1 week ago
Ah, that's the barn door already open due to ebikes in my mind.
How can you differentiate between hand throttle and a pedal powered throttle? While many users will, how many others won't? It's a lot more clearcut when it's human powered or nothing.
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Kever
1 month, 1 week ago
Vedder mountain is a good case study on mtb and dirt bikes sharing an area. The signage is great and the number of dirt bike trails are plentiful. Negative interactions seem limited. Sure there are bad apples, but signage does work. I'm surprised nobody mentioned signs yet, but perhaps signage isn't appropriate on unsanctioned trails (signs do get ripped down on the unsanctioned trails on the shore).
Believe it or not, I have seen dirt bikers on the North Shore mountains. I told them dirt biking is not allowed and haven't seen them since, thankfully.
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Jerry Willows
1 month, 1 week ago
Nobles Canyon is Vernon is also a shared network but mtn bikers have to make "gatekeepers" to keep the dirt bikers off. Mtn Bikers are a huge minority in that zone and interior "good ole boys" are plenty.
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NealWood
1 month, 1 week ago
Eagle Mountain north of Coquitlam is similar. Everyone gets along well in my experience. I seem moto's all the time both up the mountain where trails cross over or in the parking area. Always friendly waves.
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Kenny
1 month, 1 week ago
Yeah I always see trials guys on eagle and it's always a pleasant interaction. I find them far less irritating than ebikes, I think because ebikes just feel dishonest to me somehow, where as trials is trials.
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lookseasyfromhere
1 month, 1 week ago
"Maybe they accidentally stumbled upon that trail? But Mr. Guyinthefront told me he'd ridden it before, so this was no accident."
100% chance he was lying.
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Andreas Macke
1 month, 1 week ago
One really neat thing about mountain biking is that a well built trail system can sustain a ton of use without anybody's experience being ruined. Taking Galbraith as an example - you can have both the North Side and South Side completely parked out, yet once you get onto the trails, you rarely ever have to wait more than a minute to drop into a descent. And that minute doesn't diminish your experience, because the trail is still there, the berms and features are just as good.
Compare this to, say, surfing, and you realize that while we may all feel like there's a scarcity issue, there really needn't be. Paddle into any popular lineup, and the more people there are, the fewer rides you're getting. Given how hard it is to find good rideable waves, that explains a lot of the completely bonkers aggro BS that happens at popular surf spots in places all along the California coast, for example.
Moreover, you can't build more surf spots (well, unless you think of those multi-million dollar abominations like the artificial breaks being built in the freaking desert, but I digress...) - whereas Galbraith is about to get another what, 10-15 miles of trails this year. So in surfing, more people getting into it means more competition for scarce resources; in mountain biking, at least in the context of legally developed trail systems, it means more volunteers and more lobbying power and usually, after a while, more trails.
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Skooks
1 month, 1 week ago
Great article Lacy. I think as mountain bikers we don't hold the moral high ground though. I've had several encounters with other mountain bikers (some rather well-known ones who should know better) riding with zero consideration of other trail users.
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lkubica
1 month, 2 weeks ago
In Poland dirtbikes are banned from national forests (which is a vast majority), you actually can ride a bike through the forest, but you cannot build trails :) Anyway, this changes absolutely nothing, cause nor forest service nor police can catch a guy on a dirtbike without registration plates. And of course they sometimes ruin illegal mtb trails. I wonder how this could be resolved in an ideal way. Both communities are large. Dirt bikes are definitely more intrusive than mtbs, and I think they should be banned still, sorry. But mtbs, there capacity for trails is also limited. Even if they build 5x more official trails, it would still be not enough plus illegal trails are typically harder and more enjoyable then trails which are legal and have to be safe. So the problem is not really solveable.
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Morgan Heater
1 month, 1 week ago
I've run into surrons more and more often on Seattle area trails. I generally let them know they're off-route, but leave it at that. They're a bit slow on the downhill, which is a bit annoying, but much less annoying than running into them as they climb descending oriented trails.
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Mike Ferrentino
1 month, 1 week ago
The Sur-ron bomb is gaining mass, and has all the hallmarks of a spectacularly ugly explosion taking shape. I am personally excited for the advent of a real electric dirt bike for purely selfish reasons - quieter, no need to ever change air filters again, all that torque - but the ease of access (relatively low entry cost) and total lack of any sort of policing when it comes to Sur-rons and the like has created a tidal wave of young groms who are the definitive poster children for "get off my lawn" kind of boomer rage. They haul ass everywhere, they ride wherever the hell they want, and they are in no way interested in listening to what established elders may have to say. It's happening in the streets, in the cuts, and on the trails, and it is happening all over place.
The analog to that down here in Mexico can be found in these incredibly inexpensive Indian and Chinese knock offs of old Honda CRF 150s. Ten years ago they did not exist. Now, not only are they affordable and plentiful, they are into their second and third generations, so beat to shit but still repairable older units can be scored by the local teens for next to nothing. Teens gonna teen, so that means spending as little as possible to get it running, rattle can the thing black, slap on some Monster stickers, and cut the muffler out. End result, once quiet town is now drowning in a round the clock symphony of incredibly noisy shitboxes being held on the rev limiters by hormonally amped up teenage boys.
At least the Sur-rons are quiet...
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Adrian Bostock
1 month, 1 week ago
last spring there were a couple people regularly riding the legal non motorized trails on dirt bikes, to the point of occasionally running a few people I know off trails. kind of weird considering that there is a large and exceptional moto area across the valley.
One trail night we pulled up to a trailhead in my truck to do some work and out pop 5 kids on dirt bikes. I called them over and talked to them. It was a funny chat.
you know you are not permitted on these trails? I know! then what are you doing? How do we get back to X?
which went pretty well. I suspect these kids are not the folks who are regularly riding the trails but they were actually just a bit lost looking for a way home. pretty impressive considering these kids come over the mountain on an evening ride.
having worked with a bunch is user groups in the last few years. dirt bikers are the closest kin to mountain bikers. we have very similar values. and mostly we are happy to respect each others zones. mountain bikers tend to be a little extra entitled, moto riders are a bit more friendly. but we are very similar.
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Lu Kz
1 month, 1 week ago
My firm had a client in a similar situation to yours, albeit it was ski touring and snowmobiles on a signed no-snowmobile area where the ski touring company had a designated tenure.
Our client pulled a gun on the snowmobilers.
I guess what I'm saying is... could be worse?
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Lacy Kemp
1 month, 1 week ago
Sheesh. Yeah. It could be way worse. In fairness, this wasn't a screaming match. We didn't raise our voices at all, but it was definitely not a friendly conversation. I appreciated that everyone kept level heads while still being able to express their malcontent for the situation. We were all adults, even though we were all also wrong.
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Jerry Willows
1 month, 1 week ago
I don't think having a "no snowmobile" zone is actually legal on crown land if the incident happened in BC/Canada. It would only be commercial tenure which is different. Remember, if it's crown land, it belongs to the people. Private land is whole different thing.
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Lu Kz
1 month, 1 week ago
It was a commercial tenure in BC Canada. I'll also note that there are a number of areas with motor vehicle closures within the province, including some applying to snowmobiles.
Not sayin' that gun person was in the right in any event.
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Jerry Willows
1 month, 1 week ago
that's good to know about motor vehicle closures. Some good info here:
https://revelstokemountaineer.com/whose-land-is-it-anyway-understanding-crown-land-tenure-in-bc/
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weedan
1 month, 1 week ago
Crown Land may "belong to the people" (Indigenous rights and title notwithstanding) but that does not mean that individual citizens are free to do whatever they want. There are still laws, regulations and responsibilities tied to its use. Sure, BC is somewhat different than other neighbouring jurisdictions in that we generally approach trail access as a "Everything is a YES until its a NO" but that potential/pending NO is often the result of an minority of citizens with a sense of entitlement acting irresponsibly...
"No snowmobile areas" are most certainly legal in BC under a variety of legislation but primarily under Section 58 of the Wildlife Act:
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/sports-culture/recreation/motor-vehicle-prohibitions
And can be federally mandated under the Canada Wildlife Act as well.
Also, any recreational user type regardless of whether it is motorized or non-motorized can be restricted or prohibited under Section 20(3) of the Recreation Regulation for trails established under Section 56 of the Forest & Range Practice Act (FRPA) on Crown Land:
https://www.bclaws.gov.bc.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/16_2004#section20
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Distrakted
1 month, 1 week ago
Hi Lacy,
I am pretty sure I know the trail you are talking about. I have a dual sport Moto and recently road up the fire road to scout out mtb riding areas. The logging road is almost solid rock and can handle Moto traffic easily. The trail I think you are referencing is a different story altogether. I saw Moto tracks and was tempted but it looked too pristine. The soil is soft and there are too many tight switchbacks to be sustainable for motos. A no go for me.
This is a timely article. There are a couple of trees down a few hundred yards up from the entrance of the trail and I was thinking of clearing them so I could ride my mountain bike through there but I think leaving them there as a barrier is the best option.
And yes, that climb is brutal.
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cbamos
1 month, 1 week ago
These guys should have known better. Regardless of the sanctioned or non-sanctioned status of LC, it's pretty clearly not a Moto trail, and brapping up and down it in soft conditions and digging ruts is just shitty. Imagine if they tried out IG!? There's been lots of this lately in greater B'ham. Don't want the single track to end up like little Chucky and parts of the Samish zone. Some of the Blanchard trails have been hit as well. Argh!!
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Todd Hellinga
1 month, 1 week ago
this is kind of my perspective too, may be that it's not a legal trail, but it also may be that the trail isn't suitable for their use. But the entitlement thing is huge across user groups these days and I'm afraid that cat is well out of the bag and there are waaaaaaaay to may users who are waaaaay too ignorant, and pretty arrogant, to care about those kinds of things like respecting others and their trails, or private property rights or land use restrictions, etc, etc, etc.
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Lacy Kemp
1 month, 1 week ago
I definitely feel all kinds of ways about this. I was calm but underneath that curtain was a raging lunatic who wanted to push over each one as I walked by and scream at them in a voice that the Bene Gesserit would fear. Alas, I tried to play it cool, even though I was really freaking pissed.
Someone above mentioned that this story is akin to how hikers sometimes feel about mountain bikers. I'd say I agree, but I don't ever ride on hiking-only trails. I generally dislike them and I don't want to be that mountain biker that is the person riding on hiking trails.People get stabbed for that kind of thing around here. There are multi-use trails where hikers and bikers coexist and sometimes you happen upon a surprised hiker, but that is the perfect time to NOT be a dick, pull out of the way or pass them with a smile and a thank you and a "have a great hike; your dog is adorable."
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Todd Hellinga
1 month, 1 week ago
There's a notorious enduro moto rider in the Sea to Sky who's well versed on the legality of his actions...I think The Dude says it best "You're not wrong Walter. You're just an asshole."
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tashi
1 month, 1 week ago
If you’re referring to my comment, I was referencing the posters story, not yours, and a time before “mountain bike” trails existed.
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Distrakted
1 month, 1 week ago
I totally agree. It would be nice if folks would not be so selfish and use a little self restraint. And this goes for mountain bikers as well. I keep finding new fall line trails with zero thought to drainage and erosion control. These kinds of trails quickly become rutted out messes just because of the rainfall we get up here.
I think one of the issues we have here in logging country is, it is easy to justify in ones mind, building trails and riding our two wheeled toys in these "unsanctioned" zones because they surrounded by numerous areas of clear cut logging destruction. Myself included.
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Brad Sedola
1 month, 1 week ago
There is a time and a place for riding motorbikes. Early to mid eighties for Fromme is when it fell out of fashion. Where do you think Oilcan came from? The few times of outrunning the cops up Mountain Highway seemed like a good idea in my early teens, but whatever it was at the time, early politically correctedness, environmentalism, whatever, times change. That is what got me in to mountain biking to begin with. MX areas moved to places like Squamish and POCO back then, but again, times change. Good luck trying to get anywhere in those places on your YZ125.
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GB
1 month, 1 week ago
I recently read an article in another mountain bike magazine . A mountain biker on his motor bike feeling guilty and not certain how to pass people up hill on his motor bike do to its unfair advantage climbing technical, actual trail , climbs .
This invidual climbs trails with mountain bikes and motor equipped mountain bikes ?
He is genuinely concerned about both user groups but has to answers or solutions.
In the past when only what level of fitness determined our speed climbing trails it was courteous to ask may I pass on your left ?
I would find no joy in being asked if I can be passed by a person on a motor bike . Even if courtesies are applied .
My solution is easy . I don't ride those trails anymore.
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Lacy Kemp
1 month, 1 week ago
Oh man I could go on and on and on about this topics. I am right there with you... except I love this particular trail. I don't think this issue will be common there, but the damage is done.
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